* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [00:00:02] OKAY. GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. UH, I'M GONNA TURN IT OVER TO JEREMY TO GO THROUGH THE PERFUNCTORY STUFF WE HAVE TO, UH, DO, AND HE DOES A BETTER JOB AT IT THAN I DO. . I WOULDN'T GO THAT FAR. MARK, YOU'VE BEEN GREAT. I APPRECIATE IT. GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. JEREMY MCDONALD, DEVELOPMENT SERVICES DEPARTMENT, CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY. THIS IS THE, I THINK, FIFTH OFFICIAL MEETING OF THE SIGN CODE APPEALS AND COMMITTEE, I'M SORRY, SIGN CODE COMMITTEE OF THE BUILDING RELATED FIRE CODES APPEALS ADVISORY BOARD. LEMME GET ALL THAT OUT. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. UH, WE'LL START OFF TODAY WITH OUR SPANISH INTERPRETATION. GOOD MORNING. BUENO. THANK YOU. ALRIGHT. NOW WE'LL DO ROLL CALL FOR QUORUM. ADRIAN CONEZ. JOS. MARK ROSS. HERE. MICHAEL RUST. HERE. LIDDEL TOY. PETE LEY. JACK TMORE. HERE. WE HAVE THREE OF THE FIVE PRIMARIES HERE. UM, SO WE HAVE QUORUM AND IN CASE OF A VOTE, WE DO HAVE THE ALTERNATE FOR MARK ROSS HERE. SO THE VOTE WOULD GO TO MARK ROSS AS LONG AS HE'S STILL HERE. IN ADDITION, WE ALSO HAVE THE NON APPOINTED MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE. BIANCA MALDONADO PRESENT. GREG MANN. HERE. COLLEEN WAGA. BECK HERE. PATSY ZIONS PRESENT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. AND THEN JEREMY, DO ME A FAVOR AS WE GO THROUGH THE REST OF IT AND WE START VOTING, UH, WE'RE GONNA START RECORDING THE VOTES OF THE NON-VOTING MEMBERS IN A SEPARATE THING, JUST SO THAT WE HAVE A FULL RECORD OF HOW EVERYBODY FEELS ON EACH INDIVIDUAL ISSUE. APPRECIATE THAT. SOMEDAY OUR VOTE WILL COUNT FULL. SO CHAIR, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE, DO YOU WANT IT TO BE A ROLL CALL VOTE FROM FROM NOW ON? JUST THAT? OR JUST KIND OF A DOES ALL THE APPOINTED MEMBERS AND HOW DOES ALL NON-EMPLOYMENT MEMBERS GO? YEAH, I MEAN, AS LONG AS EVERYBODY IS SAYING AYE AND THERE'S NO OPPOSE, I DON'T THINK WE NEED A ROLL CALL. UH, IF YOU DON'T SAY NO, WE'RE GOING TO ASSUME WHEN EVERYBODY GOES, AYE. THAT EVERYBODY VOTED YES. AND THEN IN THE MINUTES WE'LL RECORD IT WITH THE VOTING MEMBERS ON TOP AND THEN HOW THE, UH, NON-VOTING MEMBERS ALSO VOTED SO WE CAN GET A SENSE GOING FORWARD. GOTCHA. YEAH. SO ON EACH VOTE WE'LL MAKE SURE WE HAVE THE CONSENSUS OF, OF WHO IS AGAINST FOR ABSTAINING FROM THAT TYPE OF VOTE. APPRECIATE IT, CHAIR. THANK YOU. OKAY. UH, SO REAL FAST, WE JUST PUT THIS OUT HERE. FOR ANYBODY THAT'S WATCHING ONLINE, THIS IS THE WEBSITE YOU CAN GO TO TO SEE SOME OF THE RESOURCES THAT WE, UH, TRACK AND KIND OF WHAT CHANGES WE'RE MAKING. PROPOSALS, UH, ON THE TOP ONE THERE. UM, WATCHING ONLINE, THIS IS A LINK FOR FINDING ALL THE MEETINGS, BOTH LIVE AND HISTORICAL MEETINGS THAT WE'VE, UH, OVERSEEN. AND ANYTIME YOU WANT TO REACH OUT AND PROVIDE INFORMATION TO STAFF OR, UH, HAVE A COMMENT, READ, READ INTO THE RECORD, ANYTHING, ANY QUESTIONS YOU CAN CORRELATE WITH US THROUGH THE SIGN CODE REVIEW@SANANTONIO.GOV EMAIL ADDRESS. SO FIRST, UM, IS ANYBODY ANY OPEN COMMENTS FROM THE PUBLIC IN GENERAL? DEFINITELY THIS IS A VERY OPEN FORUM, UH, THROUGH THE CHAIRS PROCESS OF, OF ANY AGENDA ITEMS SOMEBODY WANTS TO TALK ABOUT, ANY NON-AG AGENDA ITEMS SOMEBODY WANTS TO TALK ABOUT. BUT IF BEFORE WE REALLY GET INTO AGENDA ITEMS THERE, ANY PUBLIC COMMENT AT THIS TIME, ARE WE GONNA READ BONNIE CONNOR'S THING NOW? OR WHEN WE, I'LL RECOMMEND WE READ IT ONCE WE GET TO THAT AGENDA ITEM. OKAY. THANK AND WE'RE GONNA THANK YOU. SO THAT'S AGENDA ITEM NUMBER THREE, BUT WE'RE ACTUALLY GONNA MOVE THAT FORWARD. WE'RE GONNA START THAT AGENDA ITEM NUMBER FOUR. 'CAUSE WE HAVE BOTH SAWS AND C P S HERE TO DISCUSS, UH, EASEMENTS. SO WE WANT TO, AND I KNOW SAWS HAS A DEDICATED THAT WE WANNA GET HIM OUT OF HERE AS SOON AS WE CAN. PERFECT. THANK YOU. SO ITEM NUMBER FOUR. OKAY. SORRY ABOUT THAT. SOME REASON I JUMPED TO THE VERY END OF MY PRESENTATION. ALL RIGHT. SO CORRECT. YEAH. SO WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE MOVING TO AGENDA ITEM NUMBER FOUR. THAT IS CHAPTER 28 AMENDMENT ITEM FIVE DASH TWO EXTERNAL REQUEST TO ALLOW THE TEMPORARY PLACEMENT OF TEMPORARY SIGNS ON NON-RESIDENTIAL ZONE PROPERTIES AND NON-RESIDENTIAL USES WITHIN ELECTRICAL EASEMENTS PER SECTION 28 74 B THREE TEMPORARY PLACEMENT. AND, UH, THE REQUEST FOR THIS ACTUALLY CAME IN WITH SOME SPECIFIC LANGUAGE AND I CAN PULL THAT UP. UH, BUT, AND CHRISTIE, PLEASE FEEL FREE, UH, AS THE SPONSOR FOR THIS REQUEST. UM, I THINK I'LL KIND OF WHAT STAFF IS REC OR SEEN FROM IT AND THEN FILL ME IN. I WANNA MAKE SURE I, I DON'T GO INCORRECTLY FROM THIS. SO WE'VE KIND OF BROUGHT THIS UP TO THE COMMITTEE PREVIOUSLY. UH, CHRISTIE PROVIDED SOME PICTURES OF, OF SIGNS THAT ARE SIMILAR AND, AND ARE IN THE EASEMENTS. AND SO WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS TEMPORARY SIGNS. [00:05:01] UH, TEMPORARY SIGNS THAT ARE 32 ARE SMALLER, DON'T REQUIRE PERMITS. AND LET ME, SURE. I DON'T MISSPEAK ON THAT A LITTLE BIT AS WELL. SO WE DON'T LOOK AT THAT. ANYTHING BIGGER THAN THAT DOES REQUIRE PERMITS. AND THROUGH THAT PERMITTING PROCESS, WE LOOK AND SEE WHERE'S IT GONNA GO, WHERE'S IT FITTING ON A PLAT AND THINGS LIKE THAT. AND IS THERE AN EASEMENT? IF THERE'S AN EASEMENT, THEN WE NEED SOMETHING SAYING, HEY, I HAVE, I HAVE APPROVAL TO BE INSIDE THIS EASEMENT. BUT ON A PERMIT THAT, OR ON A SIGN THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE PERMIT 32 OR SMALLER, WHICH IS A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THE SIGNS OUT THERE, YOU KNOW, THEY, WE DON'T HAVE THAT REVIEW PROCESS. SO IF SOMEBODY INSTALLS IT ON AN EASEMENT WITHOUT OUR KNOWLEDGE, BUT WE ARE NOTIFIED, WE CAN GO OUT THERE AND INVESTIGATE IT AND WE CAN STILL RE, IT STILL HAS TO BE PER THE SIGN CODES, EVEN THOUGH IT DOESN'T REQUIRE PERMITS. SO IF IT'S NOT INSTALLED PROPERLY, WE CAN REQUIRE FOR IT TO BE REMOVED. BUT IT IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS, LIKE, IT'S MORE OF A REACTIVE, YOU KNOW, WE TRY TO GET OUT THERE AND POLICE AS MUCH AS WE CAN, BUT ULTIMATELY IT'S GONNA BE A REACTIVE. SOMEBODY COMPLAINS, SOMEBODY SAYS, YOU KNOW, SAW C P S SAYS, HEY, I HAVE A SIGN OF MY EASEMENT. WHAT CAN YOU LOOK INTO THIS AND SEE WHAT'S GOING ON AND TAKE CARE OF THAT? BUT WHAT I THINK CHRISTIE'S BRINGING FORWARD IS, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES GETTING THE AGREEMENTS OR PROOF OF THE AGREEMENTS AND STUFF LIKE THAT IS, IS TOUGH. AND THEY WANNA BE ABLE TO KIND OF FIND SOME WAY TO WHERE THE CITY MAYBE STEPS AWAY A LITTLE BIT FROM THAT AND MAKE IT MORE OF A THIRD PARTY, YOU KNOW, INSTALLER AND WHOEVER OWNS THAT EASEMENT TYPE THING. AND SO THAT'S, I THINK, ULTIMATELY THE REQUEST. UM, AND FROM WHAT THE COMMITTEE ASKED ORIGINALLY WAS, COULD WE HAVE SAWS AND C P S WHILE THEY'RE NOT ALL THE EASEMENTS? AND OF COURSE THAT WOULD BE IMPACTED BY THIS. THERE'S SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THE EASEMENTS, UH, IN THE CITY. SO WHAT IS THEIR PROCESSES FOR ALLOWING THIS TYPE OF, UH, INSTALLATIONS WITHIN THEIR EASEMENTS AND STUFF LIKE THAT. SO THAT WAY THE, THE COMMITTEE CAN KIND OF SEE WHAT PROCESS CHRISTIE'S AND THE OTHER SIGNED COMPANIES WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH TO GET THAT APPROVAL. SO I'LL TURN IT OVER TO, I THINK I'LL START WITH SAS. 'CAUSE I THINK YOU PUT THE CONSTRAINT I HERE BEFORE WE GET TO SAWS AND C P S, LET'S JUST, I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE START WITH UNDERSTANDING WHAT SIGNS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. MOST OF THESE SIGNS ARE, YOU KNOW, ADVERTISING FOR DIRECTIONAL SIGNS TO A SUBDIVISION. I WOULD THINK THE MAJORITY OF THEM, WELL, I MEAN, IT DEPENDS ON HOW THIS IS, BUT ULTIMATELY WE HAVE TO APPRECIATE, NO, WE CAN'T DECIDE WHAT TYPE OF CONTENT. SO IF ANY CHANGES WE MAKE WOULD BE UNIVERSAL FOR ANY PRETTY MUCH OFF-PREMISE SIGN, NO. CORRECT. BUT THE, BUT JUST IN GENERAL, THAT'S WHAT THESE SIGNS ARE. NOT THAT IT APPLIES ONLY TO THEM, BUT MOST OF 'EM THAT FALL, FALL UNDER THIS TEMPORARY PLACEMENT OR THOSE KIND OF SIGNS, THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED IN THE RIGHT OF WAY SO THAT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST 10 FEET OF THE PROPERTY. THAT'S USUALLY THE CITY RIGHT OF WAY. OR IF IT'S A LARGER RIGHT OF WAY IN THAT WE'RE TALKING ON A PRIVATE PROPERTY THAT HAPPENS TO HAVE AN EASEMENT RUNNING ALONG THE FRONT OF THE PROPERTY. SO LET'S START WITH REAL QUICK. I APOLOGIZE. ALSO, KRISTY, DID YOU WANT TO ADD ANYTHING BEFORE WE TURNED OVER? TOSS? YEAH. UH, I JUST WANNA SAY THAT THESE ARE THE TEMPORARY SIGNS. THESE DON'T APPLY TO ALL OFF-PREMISE SIGNS. THIS WOULD JUST BE TEMPORARY, CORRECT? YEAH. SO THEN WE THEN CONTENT NEUTRAL, BUT TEMPORARY, CORRECT. YEAH. AND SO WILL YOU EXPLAIN HOW, SO THAT WE JUST, I HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING AND EVERYBODY TYPICALLY HOW, WHAT INSTALLATION METHOD IS, IT'S USUALLY WOOD POSTS, CORRECT? YES. TYPICALLY IT'S ALL, UM, WHAT IS, UH, THE SIGN FATE. THE POSTS ARE JUST WOODEN FOUR BY FOUR, FOUR BY SIX POST, UH, WITHIN THE RESTRAINTS OF THE, THE CHAPTER. UM, AS WELL AS THE SIGNED PHASES ARE JUST A WOODEN HALF INCH IN WHAT'S CALLED M D O, UM, IN MEDIUM DENSITY OVERLAY, UH, SIMILAR TO M D F, UH, IN, UH, REGULAR CONSTRUCTION TERMS. AND, UH, THEY'RE UP FOR JUST A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME ADVERTISING SUBDIVISION. BUT THAT IS THE TYPICAL CONSTRUCTION METHOD OF EVERY SINGLE FOUR LEASE SIGN FOR SALE SIGN REQUEST THAT YOU ARE SEEING FROM, UM, ANY TYPE OF COMMERCIAL PROPERTY, UH, AND SUCH IN THAT ARE ALREADY IN THESE EASEMENTS. OKAY, THANK YOU. SO HERE, WHY DON'T, HERE I'LL MAKE IT EASY JUST YEAH, IF YOU WANT. YEAH, I THINK THAT WE'RE, WE'RE VERY INFORMAL. , YOU GONNA BE A HOLDER? ALRIGHT, THANK YOU. I'M TRACY LEHMAN WITH SAN ANTONIO WATER SYSTEM, AND SO MY GROUP DOES HANDLE ALL THE EASEMENT ENCROACHMENTS. UH, HERE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TEMPORARY SIGNS, SO THAT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. UH, AND I'M, MY UNDERSTANDING IS NO LONGER THAN FIVE YEARS. IS THAT CORRECT, SIR? SO THE INTENTION, UH, IF IT'S GONNA BE BURIED IN THE GROUND MORE THAN A FOOT, IF YOU HAVE TO DIG MORE THAN THAT TO INSTALL THE SIGN, WE'RE GONNA CONSIDER IT A PERMANENT AND WE'LL WANT TO GO THROUGH THE FORMAL EASEMENT ENCROACHMENT. BUT IF YOU'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT A SMALL LAY ON TOP OF THE GROUND, AND WE CAN MOVE IT OUTTA THE WAY, UH, WHENEVER THAT MOVES FORWARD, UH, BECAUSE OUR INTENT IS WE WON'T BE REPLACING THESE SIGNS WHENEVER WE HAVE TO DO A REPAIR OR MAINTENANCE. UH, EVERY FIVE [00:10:01] YEARS OVER THE, ESPECIALLY OVER THE RECHARGE ZONE, WE HAVE TO GO SEE EVERY SINGLE MANHOLE. SO WE'LL BE DRIVING EVERY SINGLE EASEMENT EVERY FIVE YEARS. AND IF YOUR SIGN'S THERE, WE'RE GONNA PUSH IT OUTTA THE WAY IF WE HAVE TO. UH, AND SO THAT'S ONE CAUTION I WANNA MAKE. BUT IF IT IS A PERMANENT SIGN, WE DO HAVE THAT EASEMENT ENC, UH, ENCROACHMENT PROCESS. UH, IT TAKES ABOUT EIGHT WEEKS TO GET ONE. UH, AND I'LL BE HONEST WITH YOU, WE DON'T APPROVE VERY MANY OF THEM ANYMORE. UH, SO, UH, I, BECAUSE WE ARE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN CONSISTENTLY MAINTAIN OUR INFRASTRUCTURE AND, UH, UH, ACCESS IT. SO, UH, AND IT VARIES BASED ON THE, THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT'S IN THE GROUND, WHAT SIZE IT IS, AS WELL AS HOW BIG OF AN EASEMENT, UH, THE ONES THAT WE HAVE LET GO IS BECAUSE WE'VE GOTTEN A REALLY LARGE EASEMENT, UH, PROBABLY BIGGER THAN WE ACTUALLY NEEDED. UH, BUT DUE TO CIRCUMSTANCES WE WERE ABLE TO GET THAT LARGER EASEMENT. SO THOSE ARE THE ONES WE'VE ALLOWED. BUT TYPICALLY, UH, IF IT'S JUST A STANDARD SIDE EASE EASEMENT, UH, WE'RE MOST LIKELY NOT GOING TO APPROVE, UH, EASEMENT ENCROACHMENT MIGHT. SO JUST, SIR, JUST QUICK QUESTION TO CLARIFY. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT IF IT'S A NOT DUG INTO THE GROUND, IF IT'S JUST SURFACE MOUNT LIKE WAS DESCRIBED WHERE IT'S JUST SITTING ON THE GROUND, UM, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE EASEMENT PROCESS IF WHEN YOU'RE INSPECTING YOUR INFRASTRUCTURE, ONLY IF IT'S IN THE WAY OF SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT, YOUR PEOPLE WOULD PUSH IT OUTTA THE WAY, NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR MOVING IT BACK TO WHERE IT WAS. AND THAT'S AS FAR AS YOU'RE CONCERNED, THAT'S A SATISFACTORY METHOD? YES, THAT'S CORRECT. ALRIGHT. THANK YOU. SO, SO LET ME PROBE A LITTLE MORE. OKAY. SO AS PART OF THE PLATING PROCESS, THERE'S EASEMENTS GRANTED THAT ARE REQUIRED THAT YOU DON'T HAVE, UH, ANY PIPE IN THE GROUND. OKAY. SO MOST OF YOUR, MOST OF YOUR SEWER LATERALS ARE IN THE STREET. CORRECT. AND SO IF, IF THERE IS A 20 FOOT EASEMENT, LET'S SAY ON THE FRONT OF THE PROPERTY THAT THE OWNERS GRANTED AS PART OF THE, THE PLATTING PROCESS, AND YOU DON'T HAVE A WATER WATERLINE OR SEWER LINE ANYWHERE NEAR THERE, DO YOU ALL HAVE ANY OBJECTIONS TO JUST BLANKETLY GRANTING, YOU KNOW, THE RIGHT TO ENCROACH INTO THE EASEMENT? BECAUSE I KNOW AS AN OWNER OF THE PROPERTY, I HAVE RIGHTS TO USE THE EASEMENT. OKAY? SO IF I HAVE AN EASEMENT IN FRONT OF MY PROPERTY, I CAN PAVE OVER IT. I CAN PRETTY MUCH DO WHATEVER I WANT, BUT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO COME BACK IN AND MAINTAIN YOUR DEAL. AND, YOU KNOW, NORMALLY, YOU KNOW, I KNOW IF IT'S CONTRACTUAL IN THE EASEMENT AGREEMENT OR BY LAW, USUALLY REPAIR WHATEVER DAMAGE TO THE PROPERTY YOU DO WHEN YOU DO WITH THAT, THESE ARE, THESE MAY GO IN THE, IN THE GROUND TWO, TWO AND A HALF FEET, BUT THEY'RE BASICALLY, YOU SHAKE IT AND THE SIGN WILL GO OVER. SO WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT A, SOMETHING THAT WENT EIGHT FEET INTO THE GROUND NOR SOMETHING THAT IS GONNA INTERFERE WITH, YOU KNOW, BREAKING WATER LINES OR SEWER LINES. AND IF IT'S IT, LET'S SAY THAT THE SEWER LINE DOES RUN IN THE EASEMENT AND IT'S NOT NEAR ANY MANHOLE THAT YOU EVER HAVE TO GET CLOSE TO, YOU KNOW, SO IT'S IN THE MIDDLE OF NO MAN'S LAND, WHICH IS TYPICALLY WHERE THESE SIGNS GO. DO YOU ALL HAVE AN ISSUE WITH JUST GETTING RID OF THAT REQUIREMENT AND PUTTING IN SOME MORE FIXED REQUIREMENTS THAT IT CAN'T GO WITHIN 25 FEET OF A, A MANHOLE OR, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO GET IN TO SERVICE THE MANHOLE IF THERE'S A BACKUP. YOU KNOW, TYPICALLY THE EASEMENTS THAT ARE ON THE, THE LINES THAT ARE RUNNING THROUGH A PROPERTY OR NOT, YOU KNOW, OTHER THAN GETTING TO THE MANHOLE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE REALLY NOT, YOU KNOW, ONCE EVERY 50 YEARS YOU'RE GONNA GO DO SOMETHING TO THE LINE. BUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU TAKE THE SIGN DOWN AND JUST LEAVE IT, IT, YOU KNOW, IS THAT A PROBLEM? SO WE WON'T GIVE A BLANKET, UH, APPROVAL, UH, FOR THAT OBVIOUSLY. OH, CAN YOU PUT THE MIC CLOSER? SORRY. SO, UH, YEAH, OBVIOUSLY WE WOULDN'T GIVE A, A BLANKET APPROVAL, UH, FOR ANYTHING, UH, THAT WOULD GET US IN A WORLD OF HURT. UH, AND FOR MOST PART, WHENEVER SAWS ACQUIRES AN EASEMENT, UH, WE ARE PLANNING TO PUT A MAIN IN THAT MAIN. AND SO THE, AND I I KNOW C P S, THEY AUTOMATICALLY GET THE 14 FOOT ALONG EVERY FRONTAGE, AND SO THEY MAY OR MAY NOT USE IT, BUT WHEN A SAWS ACQUIRES A WATER MAIN EASEMENT ALONG THE FRONTAGE OR THROUGH THE PROPERTY, [00:15:01] THE INTENT IS WE ARE PUTTING A WATER OR SEWER MAIN IN THAT EASEMENT. WE, WE DON'T GET THOSE WITHOUT A PLAN FOR SOMETHING TO GO IN THERE. AND SO, WHILE THE, UH, MAN HOSE MAY BE THE PART STICKING OUTTA THE GROUND, RIGHT, THERE'S STILL THE WATER OR SEWER MAIN UNDER THE GROUND THAT WE WILL, WILL HAVE TO ACCESS AT SOME POINT IF THERE'S A, A REQUIREMENT FOR REPAIR. SO IN ORDER TO SAY, UH, UH, THAT WE'D GIVE YOU A BLANKET, OR IF IT'S A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FEET AROUND AWAY FROM A METER BOX OR A MANHOLE, UH, THE, THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS STILL BELOW THE GROUND THAT WE WOULD HAVE TO DIG UP IF NEEDED TO REPAIR. SO YOU KNOCK THE SIGN OVER, YOU LAY IT DOWN, AND YOU MAKE THE REPAIR, AND THEN WHOEVER OWNS THE SIGN WOULD PUT IT BACK UP AFTER IT'S DONE. I, I MEAN, I'M TRYING TO FIND A MIDDLE GROUND THAT ALLOWS THE CITIZENRY AND THE, THE ECONOMIC INTEREST TO, YOU KNOW, NOT HAVE TO GO PUT A SIGN, YOU KNOW, 50 FEET OFF THE STREET. 'CAUSE THAT DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD BECAUSE A BIGGER SIGN UP BECAUSE IT, YOU KNOW, THAT VERSUS, YOU KNOW, DAMAGING THE WATER INFRASTRUCTURE. I MEAN, I WOULD THINK, YEAH, I JUST WANNA TO MAKE THE NOTE THAT PRETTY MUCH EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE SIGNS, I MEAN, IT'S, IT'S 95 BRITISH PERCENT OF THESE SIGNS ARE ON VACANT LAND THAT, I MEAN, THEY'RE JUST COMMERCIAL LAND THAT HASN'T SOLD IT'S LAND FOR SALE. I MEAN, IT'S JUST RURAL LAND. UM, IT'S NEVER, IT'S NOT A COMMERCIAL LOT. THERE'S NEVER REALLY, LIKE, IT'S NOT USUALLY DEVELOPED OR EVEN IN THE PROCESS OF BEING DEVELOPED OR ANYWHERE NEAR THAT, UM, TYPE OF STATE. 'CAUSE THE, USUALLY WHEN WE, WE GO RENT THE LAND SPACE FROM THESE LANDOWNERS, AND WHEN WE DO SO IT'S BASICALLY JUST, YOU KNOW, EXTRA MONEY FOR THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING ON THAT PROPERTY ANYWAY. SO THEREFORE IT'S JUST SOME GOOD MONEY FOR THEM TO PAY TAX WITH THEIR SHOPPING MONEY OR WHATEVER IT IS KIND OF THING. SO, UH, AGAIN, OUR INFRASTRUCTURE'S UNDERGROUND, SO THAT IS A CONCERN IF YOU'RE DIGGING A HOLE GREATER THAN ONE FOOT, UH, WHAT YOU MIGHT HIT, UH, WE USUALLY ARE FAIRLY DEEP, UH, AT LEAST FOUR FOOT OF COVER TYPICALLY. UH, BUT IF, BUT YOU'VE ALSO GOT LATERALS AND WATER LINES GOING OUT TO THE INDIVIDUAL SERVICES THAT YOU COULD HIT. AND SO THAT IS ONE CONCERN, UH, OR DOING LOCATES BEFORE YOU DIG THESE HOSE TO ENSURE THAT YOU'RE NOT RUNNING, UH, OVER ANY INFRASTRUCTURE. UH, YOU MENTIONED THESE ARE USUALLY A VACANT PROPERTIES. YES, TYPICALLY WE DO, YES. ARE WE, ARE WE KIND OF CROSSING OUR STREAMS HERE TO, FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM? I MEAN, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT VACANT LOTS, WHICH I MEAN, IF IT'S A VACANT LOT, THEN YOU CAN PROBABLY GO INSIDE THE 25 FOOT EASEMENT AND BE FINE, I'M GUESSING. I MEAN, SO, YOU KNOW, LET'S, I I'M JUST, I'M, I'M WONDERING IF WE ARE, YOU KNOW, IF THE, THE REAL CONCERN IS IF, YOU KNOW WHEN, WHEN IT IS DEVELOPED AND YOU NEED TO BE ON THE EASEMENT, UM, OR IF THE, YOU KNOW, THE, THE LAND ISN'T, YOU KNOW, GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO IT. I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY MORE IMPORTANT. YEAH, I MEAN, TYPICALLY MIKE, WHEN IT IS DEVELOPED, THEY'RE GONNA USE THE SMALLER SIGNS AND THEY'RE NOT PUTTING IT UP. MOST OF THESE TEMPORARY SIGNS ARE GOING UP, YOU KNOW, IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, YOU KNOW, AND SO I, I MEAN, I GET THAT. IT'S JUST WE CAN'T WRITE POLICY FOR MOST. YEAH, NO, I UNDERSTAND. OKAY. C P S WANNA, WELL, BUT WE, YES. SO JUST TO BE CLEAR, I MEAN, IT'S TYPICALLY A FOUR BY EIGHT SIGN, UM, AND IT SEEMS LIKE WHAT YOU'RE SUGGESTING IS IF, UM, IT DOESN'T PENETRATE THE SURFACE OR THE SUBSURFACE OR DOESN'T GO BELOW A FOOT, THEN IT COULD BE ADDED INTO, UH, AN APPROVED, UH, ENCROACHMENT INTO THE EASEMENT SO LONG AS IT FITS THOSE TWO CRITERIA. SO WE WOULDN'T APPROVE IT AS AN ENCROACHMENT, BUT YOU COULD CONSTRUCT IT AND WE WOULD REMOVE IT AS NEEDED WHENEVER WE'RE WELL, BUT I MEAN, WE'RE JUST TRYING TO CLARIFY AS A PART OF THE, THE DEVELOPMENT CODE, WHAT CAN AND CANNOT HAPPEN BECAUSE WHAT ENDS UP, BECAUSE IN ADDITION TO YOUR 20 FOOT EASEMENT SAWS, EXCUSE ME, C P S IS GONNA HAVE A 14 FOOT EASEMENT. SO WE'RE STARTING AT A MINIMUM OF 35 FEET BACK. YEAH. AND, AND I WOULD VENTURE TO SAY ON MOST OF THE ISSUES, IT'S NOT A SAW EASEMENT BECAUSE THE SAW EASEMENT TYPICALLY IS GONNA BE, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GONNA PUT, THEY, THEY'RE GONNA WANT TO PUT, UNLESS IT'S CROSSING SOMEBODY'S PROPERTY. MO MY EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN IS, IS THEY'RE PUTTING ALL THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE STREET OR IN THE RIGHT OF WAY AND NOT, WELL, THAT'S NOT, THAT'S NOT THE CASE FOR COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT SAW WILL 20 FEET, UM, ON THE FRONT OF THE PROPERTY ON THE FRONT. UM, AND THEN WE AS A PART OF CONSTRUCTION ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR [00:20:01] ACTUALLY CONSTRUCTING THE LINES. YEAH. BUT, BUT MOST OF THIS IS GOING IN WHAT I CALL UNDEVELOPED UN PLATTED, YOU KNOW, MOST OF THESE TEMPORARY SIGNS. A LOT OF 'EM, THAT'S WHERE THEY'RE GOING. BUT I THINK WE NEED TO LEAVE OPEN BECAUSE ON A, LIKE A, THE, THE MAJORITY OF COMMERCIAL IS ALREADY PLATTED. IT MAY BE UNDEVELOPED, BUT, BUT IT'S ALREADY PLATTED. OKAY. THE EASEMENTS ARE ALREADY IN PLACE. OKAY. THAT, THANK YOU FOR EDUCATING US ON THAT C P SS REAL FAST. UH, BEFORE WE MOVE TO THAT, YES. SO WE'RE KIND OF TALKING, I KNOW THAT YOU'RE BRINGING UP THE ONE FOOT OR LESS OR ON TOP OF THE GROUND NOW UNDER THE TEMPORARY SIGN ORDINANCE, IT HAS TO BE SECURED. WE CAN'T HAVE A SKID SIGN, SO IT WOULD AT LEAST HAVE TO BE THAT FOOT IN THE GROUND TYPE THING. OKAY. WHEN CONSIDERING THIS, TAKE THAT INTO ACCOUNT. SO IF IT'S IN THE GROUND AFOOT AND THEN SKIDDED TO GIVE IT STABILITY, I THINK THAT WOULD MEET THE INTENT. CORRECT. OKAY. WE'RE WORRIED ABOUT IT BEING ABLE TO BLOW OVER AND GET INTO THE STREET. SO, ALRIGHT. I'LL MARK BRUMBLE, I'M THE RIGHT OF WAY MANAGER FOR C P S ENERGY AND, UM, IN ADDRESSING THE ISSUE OF TEMPORARY SIGNS, UH, MUCH LIKE SAS, IF IT'S A TEMPORARY SIGN THAT'S NOT CONSIDERED A PERMANENT OBSTRUCTION TO, UH, TO OUR EASEMENT OR, UH, ENCROACHMENT, UH, HOWEVER, WHENEVER THERE IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO BE WITHIN OUR EASEMENT THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED ENCROACHMENT, UH, YOU WOULD JUST FOLLOW A STANDARD PROCESS OF CONTACTING OUR, UH, RIGHT OF WAY DEPARTMENT THROUGH A WEBSITE OR, UH, EMAIL ADDRESS, WHICH IS R O W CLERK AT CPS ENERGY UH, DOT COM. THAT THEN GETS ASSIGNED TO AN AGENT WHO THEN, UH, SENDS THAT TO OUR ENGINEERING GROUPS, WHICH WOULD MAKE DECISIONS, UH, ON WHETHER OR NOT AN ENCROACHMENT IS ALLOWED. AND BASICALLY, UH, THE THINGS THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT IN THE, UH, ENGINEERING GROUPS IS IF IT'S IN A TRANSMISSION EASEMENT, WE CAN'T HAVE ANY SIGNS WHATSOEVER, UH, THAT ARE DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH OUR CONDUITS. AND SO IT WOULD HAVE TO BE ON THE EDGE. SO THE PLACEMENT OF THE, OF THE ENCROACHMENT, IT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT TO THEM. UH, NO SIGNS ARE ALLOWED IN THE EASEMENT OVER 15 FEET TALL, UH, FOR, UM, FOR SAFETY STANDARD REASONS. UH, SAME THING WITH, UH, WITH DISTRIBUTION LINES. WHEN YOU HAVE OVERHEAD LINES, UH, THEY WILL NOT ALLOW ANYTHING THAT'S WITHIN THE 10 FEET OF THE, UH, CONDUCTORS. AND SO WE HAVE TO ALWAYS MAKE SURE THAT IT GOES TO THOSE DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS AND THOSE ENGINEERS FOR THEIR APPROVAL. WHEN IT COMES TO OUR UNDERGROUND EASEMENTS, UH, WITH UNDERGROUND ELECTRIC OR WITH GAS OF COURSE, UH, SOMETHING THAT'S JUST GONNA BE SITTING ON THE, THE SURFACE, LIKE A TEMPORARY SIGN, THAT WOULD NEVER BE AN ISSUE. UH, TYPICALLY WHENEVER THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS IN OUR EASEMENT THAT IS, WOULD BE OKAYED BY OUR ENGINEERING GROUPS, WHICH FROM THE SOUNDS OF THIS, IT SOUNDS LIKE MOST THINGS WOULD BE, MOST OF THESE TEMPORARY SIGNS WOULD BE, UH, IT WOULD JUST BE CONSIDERED THAT IF WE ARE GOING TO GET INTO OUR EASEMENT TO DO SOME WORK, THEN THE SIGN WOULD BE MOVED OUT OF THE WAY AND THEN, THEN CAN BE PUT BACK AFTER WE'RE DONE. SO I, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT ANSWERED YOUR QUESTIONS, BUT I'LL BE GLAD TO ANSWER THAT. OKAY. SO, UM, MARK, YES. UM, WELL, THAT PROCESS YOU JUST DESCRIBED AS EXACTLY WHAT WE GO THROUGH FOR PERMANENT SIGNS, IS THERE NOT A MORE, UH, SHORT TERM PROCESS THAT WE COULD GO THROUGH FOR TEMPORARY SIGNS? IT'S, WELL THAT, YEAH, IF YOU GIVE ME, SO I WANT TO, WHAT I'M GONNA TRY TO DO IS JUST FOR C P S, AS LONG AS THE SIGN'S 10 FEET AWAY FROM THE CONDUCTORS, THE, ARE THE SIGNS TALLER THAN 10? NO, THEY CAN'T 15 FEET. 12 IT 12 FEET THE MAX. SO 12 FEET IS THE MAX. SO WE, WE GOT THAT COVERED. AND AS LONG AS THEY LOCATE PRIOR TO ANY INSTALLATION, UH, THE, IT'S REALLY THE GAS GLASS AND UNDERLYING ELECTRIC, BUT I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, VERY MANY PLACES THAT YOU HAVE UNDERGROUND ELECTRIC IN A RURAL KIND. RIGHT. IT'S OVERHEAD AND AWAY FROM A MAJOR TRANSMISSION LINE. Y'ALL WOULD BE OKAY IF THE CITY JUST SAID, IF ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE MET, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS FOR A TEMPORARY SIGN? UM, I, I WOULD, I WOULD SAY THAT THAT WOULD BE ACCURATE, YES. OKAY. OKAY. YES, I CAN ASK A QUESTION. UM, DO Y'ALL GET A LOT OF COMPLAINTS ALREADY ABOUT THESE TYPE OF SIGNS THAT ARE IN YOUR WAY? EITHER, EITHER OR C P SS OR SAWS? UM, [00:25:01] 'CAUSE NOT ONLY ARE THERE THE ONES, UH, I TOOK SOME PICTURES JUST WITHIN A MILE OF MY OFFICE THAT THERE'S MANY, MANY ALREADY IN THESE EASEMENTS. UM, BUT ALSO THERE'S COUNTLESS ONES THAT ARE MUCH LARGER IN YOUR EASEMENTS AS WELL. SO DO YOU GET COMPLAINTS, UH, OR ARE THEY A PROBLEM THAT Y'ALL HAVE TO HANDLE OFTEN? I'VE MANAGED THE DEPARTMENT FOR FIVE YEARS AND I'VE NEVER HEARD ONE A COMPLAINT ABOUT, ABOUT TEMPORARY SIGNS. SO YEAH. SAY, UH, CONCERNS ON THOSE FROM OUR D N C FOLKS. SO, SO LET ME GO BACK NOW TO SAWS. IF IT'S, IF THEY'RE REQUIRED TO LOCATE THE SIGN, THE, WHERE THE PIPE ACTUALLY IS, THE WATER OR SEWER LINE, AND IT'S NOT, THEY'RE NOT PUTTING IT OVER THE WATER AND SEWER LINE, BUT YOU HAVE AN EASEMENT, YOU KNOW, AND DO YOU, AND, AND I KNOW I'M PUTTING YOU ON THE SPOT TO GIVE A COMPANY-WIDE POSITION AND YOU'RE JUST, YOU KNOW, AN EMPLOYEE OF SAWS. BUT FROM A PRACTICAL POINT OF VIEW, ALL THIS TAKES MAN HOURS BOTH ON YOUR PART AND UPON THE SIGN COMPANY'S PART, WHEN IT REALLY WE'RE NOT HAVING A PROBLEM. NOW THE LIKELIHOOD OF SOMETHING BAD HAPPEN BECAUSE OF ONE OF THESE TEMPORARY SIGNS IS VERY, VERY, VERY MINIMAL BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE, THERE ARE NO WATER LINES OTHER THAN, YOU KNOW, A LATERAL LINE OR A SEWER LINE THAT'S GONNA BE ANYWHERE WITHIN A COUPLE OF FEET OF THE BOTTOM OF THE GROUND BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD TO DIG THOSE UP AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S FIVE FEET, 10 FEET, YOU KNOW, WHERE A, A TWO FOOT HOLE, WHICH IS WHAT MOST OF THE HOLES ARE TO SUPPORT THE SIGN, IS NOT GONNA HURT ANYTHING. AND WHEN Y'ALL HAVE TO GET TO MAINTAIN IT, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY THE CREW COMES OUT THERE AND THEY JUST KNOCK THE SIGN OVER, DRAG IT OUT OF THE WAY, AND EVERYBODY'S DONE AND FINISHED, AND THEN THE OWNER COMES BACK OR THE SIGN COMPANY AND PUTS IT BACK UP WHEN IT'S DONE IS, FROM A PRACTICAL POINT OF VIEW, IS THERE A BIG DEAL? SO AGAIN, UH, IF IT'S A TEMPORARY SIGN, I DON'T SEE A HUGE CONCERN, BUT IF YOU'RE GONNA BE DIGGING SIGNIFICANTLY IN THE GROUND, THAT'S WHERE WE HAVE, YEAH. I MEAN, BUT WITH THIS, AND WE WOULD, BUT WE CAN MANDATE THAT THEY, AS PART OF THE AGREEMENT TO DO THIS, AND YOU HAVE TO BE LICENSED TO DO THIS, AND THEY, AS THE SIGN COMPANY, YOU KNOW, IF THEY BREAK YOUR LINE, THEY'RE LIABLE. AND, AND SO THEY'RE GONNA, YOU KNOW, THE SIGN COMPANIES THAT ARE LICENSED, WHICH ARE THE ONES THAT HAVE TO PUT IT UP, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GONNA GO DO THE LOCATING. 'CAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PAYING A HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS BILL TO FIX SOMETHING WHEN THEY GOT A, YOU KNOW, $400 TO PUT THE SIGN UP. I JUST WANNA SAY I'VE, THE HISTORY OF ME AS A COMPANY AND ITSELF, I'VE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE 2008 AND NEVER ONCE. I'VE PUT THESE ALL OVER THE PLACE, ALL OVER, LIKE AUSTIN, ALL OVER THE AREA, AND NEVER ONCE HAVE WE HIT ANY SORT OF LINES LIKE C P S, SAWS, GAS, ANY, ANY SUCH. YES. AND SO IT SOUNDS LIKE, AND, AND WE APPRECIATE THAT A LOT. UM, THERE ARE TIMES WHERE IT BECOMES VERY DIFFICULT FOR US TO FIND WHO JUST PUNCTURED OUR WATER LINE OR OUR GAS LINE OR ELECTRIC LINE BECAUSE THOSE PEOPLE MOVE OFF THE SITE VERY QUICKLY ONCE THEY DO. SO, UM, UNFORTUNATELY THERE ARE SOME FOLKS OUT THERE THAT DO DO THAT AND WE DO RUN INTO THAT. UM, UM, I WOULDN'T SAY FREQUENTLY, BUT WE DO RUN INTO THAT. IT, I, IT, IT FEELS LIKE WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE TODAY IS FIND A SOLUTION TO WHERE, UM, SOMEONE WANTING TO PUT A TEMPORARY SIGN THAT MEETS A CERTAIN REQUIREMENT, UM, ONLY COMES THROUGH THE COSA PIECE AND YOU'RE NOT NEEDING TO GO THROUGH EACH UTILITY AM AM I GETTING THAT CORRECT? THAT THAT IS CORRECT. SO, SO WITH THAT, I, I, I, I BELIEVE, AND, UH, HE LOVES IT WHEN I SPEAK FOR US, UM, I BELIEVE THAT WE CAN COME UP WITH SOME GUIDELINES FOR THAT FROM THE C P S ENERGY SIDE. I DO, I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT IS, UH, MEMORIALIZED BETWEEN COSA AND C P S ENERGY, YOU KNOW, MAKING SURE THAT, UM, THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, THE CHANGE MANAGEMENT ON THAT BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE, UM, IS DIFFERENT AND THAT WE MAKE SURE THAT BOTH SIDES UNDERSTAND THESE ARE THE REQUIREMENTS AND THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO FALL WITHIN. SO I THINK THAT WE CAN COME UP WITH [00:30:01] SOME, UH, VERY MINIMAL REQUIREMENTS AND PASS THAT ON TO THE COSA AND, UM, ALLOW THEM TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS. AS LONG AS THEY DON'T EXCEED THOSE, THEN WE WOULD NEED TO MOVE INTO A MORE, UM, FORMAL PROCESS, WHICH YES, SIR, UNFORTUNATELY IT IS THE SAME PROCESS FOR A PERMANENT, BUT UM, IT, IT, IT IS A PROCESS AND IT IS FOR SAFETY REASONS AND, AND, AND A VARIETY OF REASONS FOR US TO MAINTAIN AND SUPPORT THIS COMMUNITY WITH GAS AND ELECTRIC. YEAH. BUT I THINK THAT WE CAN GET TO A TEMPORARY, UM, PLACE. AND, AND SO BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST THE MAX HEIGHT IS 12 FEET, SO THAT'S EASY, YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S UNDER THE 15, UH, 10 FEET AWAY FROM ANY CONDUCTOR. BUT I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY CONDUCTORS THAT ARE LESS THAN, YOU KNOW, 22 FEET IN THE AIR, UH, THE CONTRACTOR WOULD, OR THE SIGNED PERSON WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR, YOU KNOW, I GUESS SHOWING PROOF THAT THE LINES HAVE BEEN LOCATED AND AT THAT POINT IT SHOULD BE. OKAY. SO IF WE CAN GET A COMMITMENT FOR SAWS TO GO BACK AND DO THE SAME PROCESS TO SAY, OKAY, TELL US WHEN IT'S REALLY WHAT, WHAT YOUR REAL PAIN POINTS ARE. BECAUSE MOST, MY GUESS IS, IS MOST OF THESE PROPERTIES MAY HAVE AN EASEMENT ON IT, BUT THERE'S NO LINE ANYWHERE CLOSE TO WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL WORRIED IT MAY BE IN THE EASEMENT BUT NOT OVER THE WATER LINE. AND, YOU KNOW, IF THEY HAVE TO COME REPAIR IT ON AN EMERGENCY BASIS, THEY BASICALLY JUST KNOCK IT OVER. THE GOOD THING FOR THE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THERE WILL BE A PERMIT. SO IF THERE IS A BROKEN GAS OR WATER OR, OR ELECTRIC LINE OR WHATEVER, YOU JUST GO TO THE CITY AND FIRST PLACE AND SAY, OKAY, WAS THERE A PERMIT TO PUT UP A SIGN THERE? YOU KNOW, THAT INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE ONLINE, SO IF WE, FOR OUR NEXT MEETING, LIKE MAYBE BY NEXT FRIDAY, IF YOU COULD, TO GET JUST THE GENERAL THINGS THAT YOU ALL ARE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT SO THAT WE CAN SHORTEN THIS PROCESS AND, YOU KNOW, IT DOESN'T TAKE $10,000 WORTH OF MAN HOURS TO PUT UP A, A DIRECTIONAL SIGN THAT'S, YOU KNOW, FAIRLY SMALL. I, I AGREE. UM, WE, WE WILL COME UP SOME THINGS MOST LIKELY ON THE C P S SIDE, WE WILL HAVE, UH, A DIG DEPTH THAT WILL BE IN THAT REQUIREMENT. YEAH, I MEAN, I MEAN, AND I THINK THE DIG DEPTH, JUST IN GENERAL, IF IT POSSIBLE TWO FEET, BECAUSE THAT'S HOW TO SUPPORT THE SIGN. THAT'S REALLY THE DEPTH THAT MOST OF THESE SIGNS ARE BEING INSTALLED. AND, YOU KNOW, THE CONTRACTOR FACES HUGE RISK, YOU KNOW, BY DIGGING DEEPER THAN THAT AND HITTING SOMETHING AND MO AND, AND THE LATERALS AND THE, WHERE THE WATER METER IS THAT IT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE PART OF THE REQUIREMENT IS TO LOCATE ON THE MAP THAT IS BEING SUBMITTED. ANY OF THOSE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE YOU GET A, A, A CUT SHEET FROM SAWS THAT SAYS, HERE'S WHERE THE WATER LINES ARE. IT'LL SHOW THE MAP WILL SHOW WHERE THE METERS ARE, YOU KNOW, WITHIN, YOU KNOW, THAT. AND AS LONG AS THEY'RE AWAY, IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, IT DOESN'T TAKE THEM EIGHT WEEKS, YOU KNOW, TO GET THROUGH A PROCESS, ONLY TO BE TOLD NO AT THE END. AND THEY'VE, YOU KNOW, GONE THROUGH ALL THIS ENERGY. SO IF WE CAN, LIKE BY NEXT FRIDAY, JUST GET THOSE PAIN POINTS OF WHAT, YOU KNOW, TO BE ABLE TO SAY YES WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, THEY'LL DO THE REVIEW TO CHECK OFF THAT IT'S BEING DONE TO SAY. OKAY. AND WHAT'S THE MR CHAIR MAXIMUM SIZE OF THESE MAIN OR SIGNS? IS THIS THE 32 SQUARE FEET? YES. MAX 32 TO 64, CORRECT. 64 IS THE, IT'S MA IS THE MAX IS THE MAX, BUT NO HIGHER THAN 12 FEET. SO IT REAL FAST, I WANNA CORRECT THAT. SO IT'S NO HIGHER THAN 16. OKAY. MOST CHOOSE 12 BECAUSE IT DOES REQUIRE ENGINEERING TO GO ABOVE THE 12. BUT OKAY. THIS, SO IF THEY WANNA STIPULATE THAT AS PART OF THE REQUIREMENTS, YOU KNOW, THAT'S YEAH, THAT'S FINE. YOU KNOW, I THINK MOST PRE-APPROVED AT A CERTAIN HEIGHT, YOU KNOW. YEAH. SO WE CAN, WE CAN MAKE IT TO STAY. WHAT IS THE AVERAGE HEIGHT OF THE TRANSMISSION LINES? UM, I WOULD SAY ABOUT 90 FEET. THAT'S TRANSMISSION LINES. AND THEN THE, THE, THE, THE REGULAR TELEPHONE POLE CONNECTORS, UH, OR THE CONDU, THE 40, 40 TO 50. OKAY. YEAH. I, JEREMY, I THINK ONCE YOU GET, BECAUSE ONCE YOU GET ABOVE 12 AND YOU HAVE TO GO UP TO 16, CHANCES ARE THE HOLE IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE MUCH [00:35:01] DEEPER TO SUPPORT THE SIGN. WOULD THAT BE CORRECT? YES. YEAH. AND YOU'RE, YOU'RE NOT GONNA REQUIRE AS ENGINEERS. YEAH. I MEAN, CORRECT. HOPEFULLY WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IS C P SS AND SAWS TO GIVE US GUIDELINES OF HERE'S WHAT WILL WORK, AND THEN IT'S UP TO THE INDUSTRY TO DECIDE, HEY, DO I WANT TO FIT INTO WHAT WILL WORK? AND THEN DO OVER FULL, IF IT'S OVER 12 FEET HIGH, THEY FOLLOW THE REGULAR RULES WHERE THEY WOULD HAVE TO GO TO THE RIGHT OF WAY. BECAUSE THEN IT GETS TO BE WHERE, YOU KNOW, IF THE HOLE HAS TO BE THREE FEET OR FOUR FEET DEEP TO SUPPORT THE SIGN, THEN YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY HAS MORE ISSUES. RIGHT. UH, I JUST WANTED TO POINT OUT THERE, THERE IS ANOTHER SECTION IN THE CODE THAT ALREADY KIND OF, THAT WE HAVE TO DO THIS FOR. IT'S FOR THE OVER THE, OVER THE, UM, STREET BANNERS. THE, THERE'S ALREADY, AND I THINK IT'S, IT'S 75, UM, UH, 28 75 D UH, C 28, 75 C. THERE'S ALREADY, UH, TEMPORARY REPLACEMENT OVER AND ACROSS CITY PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAYS. SO IF WE COULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT IN THIS SECTION THAT WHERE THE 28 UM, DASH SEVEN FOUR, THEN THAT WOULD BE PROBABLY A GOOD STARTING POINT. CORRECT? YEAH, I MEAN ULTIMATELY WHAT WE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE IS SOME WRITTEN AGREEMENT AND APPROVED LEGALIZED BETWEEN WHATEVER PAR PARTIES. 'CAUSE ULTIMATELY WHAT WE'RE APPROVING IS FOR TRYING TO SAY, HEY, THIS EASEMENT EASEMENT IS APPROVED PER THIS DOCUMENT WHEN WE DO OUR REVIEW. SO IT DOESN'T REQUIRE SOMETHING FROM THE CONTRACTOR TO PROVIDE A SIGNED AGREEMENT OR THEIR EASEMENT APPROVAL. IT'S, IT'S THERE. SO YEAH, IN THE SENSE, AND JUST FOR EVERYBODY IN THE, WHEN THAT, THE OVER ROAD, ACROSS THE POWER POLES THAT'S PRE-APPROVED, BECAUSE C P SS HAS SPECIFIC POLES THAT ARE ALREADY APPROVED AND WE HAVE THAT DOCUMENTED AND WE, SO WE JUST REVIEW YES, THAT'S ONE OF THE PRE-APPROVED ONES. SO IT CORRECT CHRISY IT WOULD BE IN THAT SAME VEIN. WE HAVE THAT LEGALIZED DOCUMENT AND THEN YEAH, BUT, AND THEN I, WE TRYING TO DEFY LIKE THAT ISN'T AS CODIFIED, YOU KNOW, THEY KIND OF JUST HAVE, IS THE STATEMENT YOU WANT TO ADD ABOUT MAKING SURE IT'S SECURE IN THIS SECTION? I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO THIS ONE, WE PROBABLY WANNA CODIFY A LOT OF THE LANGUAGE THAT WE'RE GONNA DEVELOP BECAUSE OF 32 AND LESS STILL, OR 32 AND LESS STILL DON'T REQUIRE THAT PERMIT. SO WHILE DURING THE REVIEW PROCESS, WE'LL HAVE THIS DOCUMENT TO USE AS A, AS A POINT, I KINDA WANNA MAKE SURE THAT IT'S CODIFIED SO THAT EVERYBODY THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE A PERMIT AND DON'T GO THROUGH THE REVIEW PROCESS ARE STILL ADHERENT TO THAT SECTION. YEAH, THAT, THAT MAKES SENSE. YEAH, IT DOES. YEAH. PATTY, MY QUESTION IS, UH, THE CONTRACTOR IDENTIFICATION ON THE SIGN, MR. SAS, YOU MENTIONED YOU, YOU AS WELL THAT YOU HAVE A HARD TIME TRACKING DOWN THE CONTRACTORS WHEN THERE'S AN ISSUE. DO YOU PUT YOUR NAME ON THE SIGN SOMEWHERE WITH CONTACT INFORMATION LIKE PHONE NUMBER AND BACK? YEAH. NO, WE DON'T, BUT THEY'RE, IF THEY'RE PERMITTED, THEY ALL HAVE A PERMIT NUMBER ON THEM THAT WILL TRACK BACK TO US THEN. BUT THAT REQUIRES THEM HAVING TO FOLLOW UP WITH THE PERMIT IF IT'S AN EMERGENCY. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF THEIR NAME WAS ON THE SIGN SOMEWHERE IN CONTACT INFORMATION THAT THEY COULD GET TO THE CONTRACTOR SOONER. IF THERE'S SOMETHING SPEWING IN IMPRACTICAL WHEN IT IS EMERGENCY AND THEY NEED TO DEAL WITH SOMETHING, THEY'RE JUST KNOCK THE YEAH, THEY'RE NOT TAKING THE TIME TO TRACK DOWN. THEY'RE NOT TO CALL, THEY'RE DOING WHAT THEY NEED TO DO. I COULD, I COULD PROBABLY GO PUSH OVER IT EVEN WITH MY CAR, THAT KIND OF THING. YEAH. I THANK YOU. I'VE HAD THE PLEASURE OF, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT STUFF TWICE. SO, YOU KNOW, ONE MORE, ONE MORE DIG WITH THE BACK HOE, YOU KNOW, WE'LL HAVE TO GET YOU ON THE EDUCATION PROGRAM FOR THAT . YES. WHAT, WHAT KIND OF EQUIPMENT ARE YOU USING TO INSTALL THESE IN THE GROUND? UM, UH, POST HOLE DIGGERS, POST DIGGER OR AN AUGER OR JACKHAMMER, BUT NOTHING SO TALL THAT'S GOING TO INTERFERE. NO, MA'AM. NO, MA'AM. OKAY. THANK YOU. ANY OTHER MANPOWER? OKAY, SO I THINK IF YOU'LL, I THINK THERE'S CONSENSUS AMONG THE COMMITTEE THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THIS DONE TO MAKE IT EASY ON EVERYBODY AND, AND WE JUST NEED TO WORK WITH THE LANGUAGE. BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, GENERALLY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CURRENT PROCESS WILL BE IN PLACE FOR ANY SIGN OVER 12 FEET, 12 FEET OR UNDER CAN UTILIZE THIS OTHER PROCESS. UH, AS LONG AS UH, THEY STAY 10 FEET AWAY FROM ANY CONNECTOR, THEY PRE LOCATE ALL THE UTILITIES, THAT MIGHT BE WHERE THEY'RE DIGGING AND THEN ANYTHING ELSE, YOU KNOW, AND TO STAY AWAY, YOU KNOW, SOME DISTANT DISTANCE AWAY FROM, YOU KNOW, WHERE THE ACTUAL LINES IS, OR WATER METER OR MANHOLE SO THAT THEY DON'T PUT A, YOU KNOW, THE SIGN RIGHT ON TOP OF A MANHOLE WHERE YOU CAN'T GET IN WITH YOUR EQUIPMENT TO SURFACE IT. SO IF YOU'LL GET US THE FEET AND THE DISTANCE, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK THE MAP THAT ALSO, THE MAP THAT THE CONTRACTOR IS GOING TO HAVE TO SUBMIT TO GET THE PERMIT SHOULD TO USE THIS OTHER PROCESS, SHOULD HAVE TO IDENTIFY, [00:40:01] YOU KNOW, WHERE THE EASEMENT IS, WHAT THE PIPES ARE THERE, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY BOTH THE UTILITIES. OKAY, PERFECT. AND CHAIR REAL QUICK, AND I CHRISSY AS THE PROPONENT FOR THIS ONE, I KNOW YOU KINDA HIGHLIGHTED ELECTRICAL AND, AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE IT'S OUT THERE. SO ULTIMATELY WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IS WHEN STAFF REVIEWS A PERMITTED TO SIGN AND WE LOOK AT THE EASEMENTS, WE SEE, HEY, IT'S UNDER C P SS OR SAWSON. IF WE COME TO AN AGREEMENT AND WE HAVE THAT TO WHERE WE CAN APPROVE IT UNDER CERTAIN GUIDELINES, EVERYTHING ELSE, ALL OTHER EASEMENTS STILL REQUIRE SOMEBODY KIND OF, YOU KNOW, SO IF IT'S A PARTY TO PARTY, YOU KNOW, LAND TO LAND, ALL THAT TYPE OF STUFF, YOU KNOW, ALL THAT'S STILL GONNA, YOU KNOW, REALLY WE'RE JUST LOOKING AT SPECIFIC C P S AND OR SAWS IF WE COME WITH THAT. SO ALL THE ONES WOULD YEAH, BECAUSE THE OTH THE OTHER EASEMENTS, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE PRIVATE EASEMENTS AND THEY'RE NOT REALLY ENFORCEABLE BY THE CITY AT ALL. SO THAT WOULD BE BETWEEN, I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THOSE. CORRECT. THEY'RE NOT ENFORCEABLE, BUT ONCE AGAIN, WE'RE NOT REALLY ENFORCEABLE WITH THE C P S ONE EITHER. BUT IF WE SEE AN EASEMENT, WE NEED SOME CLARIFICATION WHEN WE REVIEW THAT, THAT A SIGN'S ALLOWED TO GO IN THAT EASEMENT. WELL, BUT I THINK THE OWNER SIGNING THE THING, GIVING PERMISSION FOR IT TO BE DONE, IS THAT CORRECT? YEAH, EXACTLY. I MEAN THAT'S, BUT IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS LIKE WE JUST NEED SOMEBODY TO LEAVE US FROM, HEY, WE HAVE APPROVAL TO BE WITHIN THIS EASEMENT. AND THEN AS WE CONTINUE THIS, THE OTHER THING WE ALSO AGREED TO IS SOME, YOU KNOW, ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE BY THE OWNER OR SOMETHING. JUST OH YEAH. MAKING IT EASY. I'VE TALKED TO HIM. YEAH, JEREMY ABOUT THAT. OKAY. THANK YOU CHAIR. I HAD ONE LAST QUESTION. YES. UM, WE WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRY AND GET THOSE, UH, BULLET POINTS, IF YOU WILL, TOGETHER, UM, BY NEXT FRIDAY. BUT WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT OUR LEGAL DEPARTMENT WILL STILL NEED TO, YOU KNOW, SIGN OFF AND PUT ANY LEGAL LANGUAGE IN THERE. I DON'T WANNA SPEAK FOR THEM. YEAH, I MEAN, WHAT'S GOING TO HERE IS WHAT I UNDERSTAND THE, THE PROCESS TO BE, WE'RE GONNA COME UP WITH ORDINANCE LANGUAGE THAT IS NOT GOING AFFECT INTO EFFECT PROBABLY UNTIL JANUARY. SO EVERYBODY WILL HAVE TIME TO FORMALIZE THE STUFF AND IT'S NOT GOING TO COUNCIL, MY GUESS IS UNTIL OCTOBER. SO THERE WILL BE OTHER OPPORTUNITIES IF IT NEEDS TO BE TWEAKED OR SOMETHING TO HAVE THAT TIME. FAIR ENOUGH. THANK YOU. OKAY, THANK YOU CHAIR. I JUST HAD ONE LAST QUESTION. YES. WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. YES. SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN, ON AN EMERGENCY SITUATION, YOU COME IN, YOU KNOCK THE SIGN DOWN, IT JUST STAYS THERE. CORRECT? WE'LL MOVE IT OUT OF THE WAY AND IT'LL BE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE OWNER THAT SIGN TO REPLACE IT. AND SO YOU MOVE IT, WHEN YOU SAY YOU MOVE IT OUTTA THE WAY, YOU ENSURE THAT IT'S NOT OBSTRUCTING THE RIGHT OF WAY OR, OH, YEAH, BECAUSE I KNOW SOMETIMES THEY'LL COME IN AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, YEAH. WE WILL NOT PUT IT IN THE RIGHT OF WAY FOR SURE. WE'LL, I MEAN, THEY'LL JUST KNOCK IT DOWN AND MOVE IT AND FURTHER INTO THE THING AND LAY IT DOWN AND THEN SOMEBODY NEEDS TO, I JUST DON'T WANT TO HAVE AN UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE THAT WE HAVE DEBRIS ESSENTIALLY THAT'S PEOPLE AREN'T CLAIMING TO CLEAN UP. BECAUSE WHILE I THINK THE SITUATION IS REALLY FOCUSED TOWARDS THE RURAL AREAS, THE UNDEVELOPED, THIS IS CITYWIDE. SO YEAH, OUR, OUR PRACTICE IS NEVER TO MOVE SOMETHING IN THE RIGHT OF WAY. THANK YOU. GOOD POINT. BIANCA. YES. CAN I ASK A GENERAL QUESTION BEFORE WE GO? YEAH. BEFORE THEY LEAVE TO THEM OR TO US? OH, UH, MOSTLY THE CITY STAFF. OKAY. UM, I'M JUST ASSUMING THAT IF A CITY COUNCIL MEMBER MAKES A RECOMMENDATION ABOUT CHANGES TO OUR ASSIGNED CODE, UM, THAT YOU WOULD INFORM THE CITY COUNCIL MEMBER TO FIRST GET WITH THE INDUSTRY PRIOR TO PRESENTING IT TO THIS COMMITTEE. AM I CORRECT HERE? I'LL GIVE YOU THE ANSWER THAT MIKE SHANNON GAVE US LAST NIGHT AT THE, UH, UM, THE BIG BOARD. ONCE THIS IS PRESENTED TO COUNCIL, IT IS THEIR DOCUMENT, NOT NOT THIS COMMITTEE OR THE BIG BOARD. AND THEY CAN DO WITH, OH, I'LL LET YOU, I DIDN'T SEE YOU WALK IN . HE SNUCK IN. HEY EVERYBODY. GOD IS, HEY EVERYBODY. MIKE SHANNON, DIRECTOR. SO, UH, I ALMOST LET YOU SPEAK FOR ME. THAT WAS NICE. I WANTED TO SEE HOW FAR HE WAS GONNA GO WITH IT. . UM, I WAS ACCURATE. I THINK THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, OR THE QUESTION IS REALLY RELATED. IF WHEN WE HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH CITY LEADERSHIP AT THE COUNCIL OR MAYOR LEVEL, IF THEY HAVE AN IDEA FOR ANY TYPE OF CODE CHANGE, SPECIFICALLY SCIENCE IN THIS GROUP OR ANY OTHERS, OUR STANDARD RESPONSE, MY STANDARD RESPONSE TO THEM IS ALWAYS, HEY, HAVE YOU TALKED TO THE INDUSTRY? I DON'T CARE IF IT'S SOMETHING ABOUT RESTAURANTS, I DON'T CARE. IT'S DEVELOPMENT. I DON'T CARE IF IT'S SCIENCE. UH, BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT WE WILL ALSO HAVE THAT DISCUSSION WITH INDUSTRY, UH, AND AFFECTED STAKEHOLDERS. SO, UH, YES, THE ANSWER IS ALWAYS WE WOULD RECOMMEND ANY COUNCIL MEMBER OR ANY CITY LEADERSHIP OR ANY STAKEHOLDER GROUP WITH AN IDEA THAT AFFECTS OUR CODES TO TALK TO THOSE IN THAT INDUSTRY. [00:45:01] NOW, WILL THEY AUTOMATICALLY DO THAT? WE HAVE NO CONTROL OF THAT. UH, BUT THAT'S A STANDARD, UH, PART OF OUR PRACTICE HERE AT DEVELOPMENT SERVICES. AND I KNOW THERE'S OTHER DEPARTMENTS, UH, THAT DO THE SAME. SO DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, LARRY? YES. I JUST HEARD A RUMOR THAT, UM, THAT IT HAPPENED WITHOUT INCLUDING OUR INDUSTRY, SO, OKAY. YEAH, THANK YOU. AND, AND I WOULD LIKE, YOU KNOW, JUST AS A CITIZEN AND ONE THAT HAS WORKED, THE DEVELOPMENT SERVICE DEPARTMENT DOES IT BETTER THAN MOST OTHER DEPARTMENTS WITHIN THE CITY FOR REACHING OUT TO STAKEHOLDERS WHEN THERE'S ISSUES. SO I'D LIKE TO COMMEND MIKE AND HIS STAFF FOR THAT OPENNESS. OKAY. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS WHILE STAFF IS HERE? OKAY, THANK YOU SO MUCH. YES, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. C P S AND INSTALLS IN. YEAH, FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME ANYTHING AND WE'LL WORK ON THAT AND TRY TO GET THAT TOGETHER. AND WE MAY EVEN GET SOME OF THE STAKEHOLDERS THAT BEFORE Y'ALL LEAVE, WE MAY ALSO GET, UH, THE, SOME OF THE STAKEHOLDERS TO DRAFT UP WHATEVER THEY THINK AND MAYBE SEND IT TO JEREMY AND THEN EVERYBODY MAYBE WE SET UP A, A WORD DOCUMENT THAT EVERYBODY CAN LIKE PLAY WITH AT THE SAME TIME. THANK YOU. OKAY. JEREMY ALREADY CHAIR. UM, SO I KNOW WE'VE SKIPPED AGENDA ITEM NUMBER THREE, BUT I THINK IT'D BE GREAT, UM, KIND OF AT THE POINT IN THE LAST COMMITTEE OF TRYING TO STAY IN THE SAME VEIN AS WE'RE MOVING FORWARD. SO I WANNA MOVE TO AGENDA ITEM NUMBER FIVE, WHICH IS ALSO, UH, PUT FORWARD BY CHRISTIE AND SEVEN 13 SIGNS. SO THAT'LL BE ITEM FIVE DASH FIVE. YOU CAN'T LEAVE UNTIL THE END OF THE MEETING, SO THIS ISN'T REALLY A CODIFIABLE OPTION. WE WENT OVER, UH, THIS IN THE SAME VEIN AS 5.4. THIS IS THE EVENT SIGNED PERMIT APPLICATION. WE BROUGHT THIS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE PREVIOUSLY. THIS IS IN REGARDS TO THE SIGNATURE REQUIREMENTS, SO A LITTLE BIT OF ACCURACY AND WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT LAST TIME. ONCE AGAIN, THIS STILL FALLS UNDER TEMPORARY SIGNS, CORRECT, CHRISTIE? I THINK I DON'T WANNA MISS, SO YEAH, THANK YOU. SO YEAH, WE'RE IN THE SAME, THIS IS THE TEMPORARY SIGN APPLICATION PROCESS. UH, THE FIVE DASH FOUR ONE HAD WAS A REQUEST TO REMOVE THE REQUIREMENT TO PUT IN THE END DATE FOR THAT TEMPORARY SIGN. SO WE'RE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GONNA REMOVE THAT FROM THE APPLICATION. ULTIMATELY, IT'S BUILT, IT'S PART OF OUR BUILD SA SO IT MIGHT TAKE SOME TIME, BUT IT'S NOT A REQUIRED FIELD. SO THAT ONE WE KIND OF TABLE OR WE'RE GOOD WITH THAT AS A COMMITTEE. THIS ONE IS THE SIGNATURE REQUIREMENTS. SO WE KIND OF HAVE TWO DIFFERENT POLICIES ON-PREMISE SIGNS REQUIRE A, UH, NOT AN AFFIDAVIT, BUT JUST A, A SIGNATURE FROM THE OWNER SAYING THAT I AGREE TO HAVING THIS SIGN INSTALLED ON MY PROPERTY. THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR ON THE ON-PREMISE SIGNS. OFF-PREMISE SIGNS IS WHERE WE HAVE A MORE STRICT REQUIREMENT THAT EITHER A CONTRACT BE PROVIDED OR A SIGNED AFFIDAVIT THAT'S BEEN NOTARIZED BE PROVIDED FOR AN OFF-PREMISE SIGN. A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY OF WHY WE'VE MADE THAT CHANGE. YOU KNOW, WE, WE'VE HAD SOME COMPLAINTS FOR HOME OR PROPERTY OWNERS COME UP AND TELL US, I DIDN'T APPROVE THIS SIGN. AND I THINK PROBABLY ONE, WE'LL SEE MORE OF THIS ON-PREMISE SIGN. ULTIMATELY SOMEBODY'S USING THAT PROPERTY, THEY WANT ON-PREMISE, THEY'RE ADVERTISING WHAT THEY'RE DOING WITH THAT PROPERTY. THEY'RE MORE ENGAGED AN OFF-PREMISE SIGN. ULTIMATELY YOU MIGHT HAVE A VACANT PROPERTY SOMEWHERE THAT A SIGN IS A SIGN CONTRACTOR COULD INSTALL A SIGN OUT THERE AND NOBODY'S REALLY GONNA NOTICE THAT. PROPERTY OWNER MAY NOT BE AWARE OF THAT FOR, YOU KNOW, DEPENDING ON WHO THE PROPERTY OWNER IS AND WHERE THEY LIVE A VERY LONG TIME. AND THAT'S WHY WE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF MOVED INTO WANTING SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT MORE STRICT. NOW TALKING WITH CHRISTIE. AND I WANNA MAKE SURE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE, WE'RE TRYING TO TALKING, I THINK Y'ALL ASKED US TO GO TO LEGAL, YOU KNOW, KIND OF SEE WHAT WE COULD APPROVE AND NOT APPROVE AND YOU KNOW, ULTIMATELY WHAT IS LIABLE FOR THE CITY IF WE APPROVE A PERMIT WITH THIS SPECIFIC TYPE OF SIGNATURE FOR OFF-PREMISE SIGNS THAT WE ALLOW FOR THE ON-PREMISE SIGN. BUT I THINK IN THE EVENT THAT CHRISTIE'S RUNNING INTO IS MORE OF A DEVELOPMENT SCENARIO WHERE SOMEBODY'S DEVELOPING A PROPERTY, THE DEVELOPERS, THE CONTRACTORS DON'T OWN THAT PROPERTY AT THAT TIME. THE PROPERTY OWNER MIGHT BE, YOU KNOW, ONCE AGAIN SOMEBODY THAT'S NOT IN THE CITY HARD TO COME BY. SO TO GETTING A SIGNATURE NOTARIZED FROM THEM, THE SIGN COMPANY WON'T ACTUALLY BE CONTRACTED WITH THEM. THEY'LL BE CONTRACTED WITH THE DEVELOPER, THE CONTRACTORS. AND IT SEEMS TO BE KIND OF SPECIFIC TO THAT SCENARIO, CHRISTY, IS THAT KIND OF ULTIMATELY WHAT WE'RE REALLY LOOKING FOR? YES, THAT'S CORRECT. OKAY. SO I, IN TALKING WITH LEGAL, I, I THINK INTERNALLY, THE GOOD THING WITH THAT IS IF THEY'RE IN PROCESS OF DEVELOPMENT, WE HAVE PLATTS, WE HAVE PERMITS, WE HAVE A LOT OF RECORDS ALREADY IN HOUSE AT D S D THAT YOU KNOW, HEY LOOK, WE CAN LOOK AT THIS. THIS IS GOING ON, THIS PERMIT REQUEST FOR A SIGN FALLS IN LINE WITH THE DEVELOPMENT THAT'S HAPPENING OUT THERE. SO IT WOULDN'T BE THIS VACANT LOT THAT NOBODY'S REALLY LOOKING INTO OR OVERSEEING. SO I THINK IF CHRISTIE'S OKAY WITH IT, I THINK STAFF IS OKAY WITH KIND OF AMENDING THIS PROCESS AND LEGAL SAYS WE SHOULD BE GOOD BECAUSE ULTIMATELY WE'RE STILL GETTING A SIGNATURE SOME FROM THIS PROPERTY OWNER SAYING, I WOULD CONSENT TO THIS. WELL NOT THE PROPERTY OWNER. WELL, NO, YOU WOULD STILL GET [00:50:01] IT FROM THE PROPERTY OWNER, YOU JUST WOULDN'T BE SIGNED AFFIDAVIT. YOU'RE STILL GOOD WITH PROPERTY OWNERS SIGNING OFF ON IT. YOU JUST DON'T WANT IT TO BE A ASSERT, UH, NOTARIZED. YES. SO ULTIMATELY WE'RE STILL RECEIVING SOMETHING FROM THE CONTRACTOR SAYING, HEY, WE HAVE AGREEMENTS WITH THE, WITH THE PROPERTY OWNER TO INSTALL THIS SIGN. SO CITIES, YOU KNOW, BEING TOLD THIS IS ALL APPROVED BY ALL PARTIES INVOLVED AND WE WOULD ISSUE THE PERMIT OFF OF THAT. SO I, I THINK AS A WHOLE, THE CITY'S GOOD WITH MAKING THAT CHANGE. SO CAN I ASK A QUESTION? SO WHEN YOU DO THIS PROCESS BEFORE YOU GO TO GET YOUR PERMIT, YOU HAVE A, SOME KIND OF SIGNED AGREEMENT, UH, ALLOWING THE SIGN TO BE PUT ON THE PROPERTY, CORRECT? UH, YES, THAT'S CORRECT. SO QUESTION FOR LEGAL, IF, IF PART OF THE PACKAGE IS INCLUDING THAT AGREEMENT AS PART OF THE SUBMISSION, THAT THAT'S ALREADY ALLOWED. SO THE, LIKE A LEASE WE, WE, WELL, THAT'S, UH, TECHNICALLY ALLOWED RIGHT NOW. SO WHAT WHAT WE'RE UP AGAINST IS WHEN SAY THE THE BUILDER, THEY'RE AT THE VERY BEGINNING AND THE, THE FRONT PORTION OF THE SUBDIVISION IN A SENSE WHERE THEY TYPICALLY WOULD PUT A MARKETING SIGN IS, UH, STILL UNDER THE DEVELOPER OR THE, UH, LIKE WHO THEY BOUGHT THE LAND FROM OR EVEN THE H O A YEAH, IT'S ALREADY DEEDED TO THE H O A AND SO THEREFORE WE, IT'S HARD. WE DON'T TECHNICALLY NEED A LEASE IN A SENSE. UM, SO CAN WE JUST BASICALLY GET THEM TO SAY E I MEAN WE'VE HAD IT IN EMAIL FORMAT. YES, YOU CAN PUT A SIGN UP. WE OKAY. IT'S TOTALLY FINE. OKAY. SO IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU PROVIDE A LEASE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO GET A SIGNATURE NOW, CORRECT? CORRECT. WELL, YEAH, I MEAN IF YOU HAVE THE LEASE, BUT THAT'S USUALLY THE PROBLEM WITH THIS ONE IS HAVE THAT LEASE AGREEMENT. OKAY. SO I WOULD MAKE THE LANGUAGE THAT SAYS EITHER OR YOU CAN EITHER PROVIDE A LEASE OR THE SIGNATURE OF THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY ALLOWING IT. WOULD THAT BE OKAY WITH Y'ALL? WELL, I MEAN, ONCE AGAIN, THIS ISN'T A CODIFIED SECTION. THIS IS MORE OF A P A POLICY PROCEDURE THING. UH, AND ALSO TIES TO THE APPLICATION. UM, BUT YEAH, I MEAN THE, BECAUSE THE LEASE IS MORE STRINGENT. I MEAN THAT IF WE HAVE THAT AND IT'S THE PROPERTY OWNER WITH THE LEASE AND THAT'S USUALLY WHAT YOU WOULD SEE ON, I THINK ON THESE MORE LONG TERM VACANT LIVE TYPE STUFF. 'CAUSE YOU WOULD BE WORKING DIRECTLY WITH THAT OWNER VERSUS IN THESE SPECIFIC SCENARIOS. BUT YEAH, WHATEVER WORKS FOR THEM, YOU KNOW, THE SIGNATURE IS THE EASIER IT SOUNDS LIKE AND LESS, YEAH, YOU KNOW, LESS THAN WHAT WE'RE ASKING FOR NOW, BUT EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE ASKING FOR THE ON-PREMISE. SO AS LIKE I SAID, WHAT WE'LL PROBABLY DO IS SAY, YOU KNOW, WE WILL, LIKE I SAID, IT'LL BE A POLICY THING, SO WE'LL KIND OF AMEND THAT. I DON'T THINK THIS, YOU KNOW, AS LONG AS THE COMMITTEE APPROVES KIND OF THAT APPROACH, UM, YOU KNOW, BUT THE GOAL WILL BE WE KIND OF GO WITH THESE SPECIFIC SCENARIOS AND WE CAN KIND OF AMEND THE PERMIT APPLICATION PROCESS SO THAT IF IT'S PART OF A DEVELOPMENT WE HAVE SECURED PLATTS OR CONTRACTS OR I'M SORRY, NOT CONTRACTS, BUT PERMITS FOR DEVELOPMENT AND STUFF LIKE THAT, THEN YOU KNOW, WE USE THAT AS A REFERENCE POINT. LIKE, OKAY, THIS FALLS WITHIN THAT TYPE OF SCOPE AND YOU CAN APPROVE THIS WITH THE SIGNATURE SO IT DOESN'T CHANGE CONTENT. AND IF, IF YOU HAVE NOTHING ON IT, IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S A VACANT PIECE OF LAND, IT'S NOT UNDER DEVELOPMENT, THE OWNER'S SIGNATURE WOULD STILL BE OKAY. NO, BUT AT THAT POINT I THINK, I MEAN THE SIGN COMPANY WOULD BE WORKING WITH THAT OWNER OF THAT LAND. SO I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE, I MEAN, YOU'D HAVE A LEASE SPECIFICALLY. WE'RE TALKING MORE LIKE ONCE THE PROPERTY IS BEING DEVELOPED, I, I HAVE ONCE OR TWICE COME ACROSS WHERE THEY'RE JUST LIKE, YEAH, YOU CAN CAN PUT IT UP. I DON'T CARE FOR ANY MONEY IN RETURN. YEAH. SO THERE'S NO LEASE IN A SENSE. I JUST HAVE AN EMAIL SAYING YOU CAN PUT THE SIGN UP, UM, FOR NO MONEY. I DON'T CARE. BUT, BUT YOU COULD SEND THEM A ONE PAGE LITTLE SHORT THING THAT THEY E-SIGN AND YES, I COULD, YEAH. AND I CAN TECHNICALLY SEND THEM THE LEASE AND JUST PUT ZERO. I JUST YES, IF I NEEDED TO. OKAY, SO, SO THE BUT THE LEASE IN ALL CASES WOULD BE ENOUGH EVIDENCE? OH YEAH. A LEASE IS A CONTRACTUAL DOCUMENT. THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S A GOOD NO MATTER WHAT, IT'S MORE JUST THE SIGNATURE AND OR EMAIL. WE'LL HAVE TO LOOK AT THE EMAIL ONE, I MEAN, WE'LL, BUT IF YOU'RE GOOD WITH THE SIGNATURE, THEN THAT'S KIND OF WHAT STAFF IS LOOKING FOR, THE SCENARIOS. SO MY QUESTION IS, ANY COMMENTS FROM THE COMMITTEE? CAN WE GET A MOTION TO RECOMMEND THAT THAT PROCESS BE AMENDED AS WE JUST DISCUSSED, JOE OR WHAT? JACK STATE, THE STATE, THE MOTION THAT, THAT A SIGNATURE ON. IF YOU'RE WORKING IN A DEVELOPMENT THAT'S A BIG DEVELOPMENT AND THE, AND THE OWNER SIGNS SAYING IT, I APPROVE ON THE PERMIT THAT THAT'S ALL THAT'S REQUIRED. YOU DON'T NEED A LEASE AGREEMENT, BUT THANK YOU SIR. AND UH, CHAIR, I JUST WANNA ADD, SO PER THE TEMPORARY PERMIT APPLICATION, YES. WE JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THIS IS TEMPORARY SIGNS. TEMPORARY SIGNS ONLY. YEAH. SO JACK MOVED A SECOND. THANK YOU. ANY DISCUSSION? OKAY. ALL IN FAVOR, PLEASE SAY AYE. AYE. AND, AND THE [00:55:01] NON-VOTING MEMBERS YOU CAN VOTE TO AND WE'LL JUST, OKAY, THANK YOU. AYE, OPPOSE, NAYYY. ABSTENTIONS. SO LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT IT WAS UNANIMOUSLY APPROVE BY THE VOTING AND NON-VOTING MEMBERS. NEXT ITEM CHAIRMAN. THANK YOU CHAIR. SO CONTINUING, WE'RE, WE'RE STILL IN TEMPORARY SIGNS, SO I'D LIKE TO MOVE TO AGENDA ITEM NUMBER SIX, WHICH WOULD BE TEMPORARY SIGNS AS WELL. I'M GONNA PULL UP THE LANGUAGE HERE, BUT THEN I'M GONNA MOVE US ACTUALLY INTO THE DRAFT CHAPTER 28. THANK YOU. SO WE CAN LOOK AT THE PROPOSED LANGUAGE, UH, WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR, AND I APOLOGIZE IN THE, UH, AGENDA. I DID MESS UP ON ITEM. THIS SHOULD BE ITEM, I THINK 10 DASH, UH, ONE OR 11 DASH ONE. BUT ULTIMATELY THE CODE SECTION IS STILL THE SAME. SO REQUEST TO EXEMPT THE TEMPORARY PLACEMENT OF SMALL TEMPORARY SIGNS FROM PERMITTING REQUIREMENT ON NON-RESIDENTIAL ZONE PROPERTIES AND NON-RESIDENTIAL USES IF THE SIGN IS PLACED ON THE PRIVATE PROPERTY OF THE INSTALLER OR ON THE RIGHT OF WAY DIRECTLY ABUTTING THE PRIVATE PROPERTY OF THE INSTALLER. SO GIMME ONE SECOND AND I'LL PULL UP THAT ACTUAL LANGUAGE. THAT'S MY, I KNOW YOU HAVE AN AGENDA THAT THIS IS MY AGENDA ITEM, RIGHT? THAT IS CORRECT. YEAH. SO I JUST WANT EVERYBODY TO KNOW THAT I WAS THE ONE THAT SUBMITTED THIS. SO WE HAVE TRANSPARENCY, HUH? , YOU'RE GONNA BE MAKE SOME SMART COMMENT. NO, I WAS JUST SAYING DO WE NEED LIKE A BREAK? DO YOU NEED A BREAK? NO. OKAY. AND BASICALLY WHAT THIS ALLOWS, OR WHAT THE RECOMMENDATION WAS IS IF, IF YOU WANT TO PUT SOME TEMPORARY SIGNS UP IN FRONT OF YOUR PROPERTY, YOU KNOW, TAKE THE PROPERTY LINE, PROPERTY LINE TO WHEREVER THE CURB LINE IS, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN PUT THAT UP WITHOUT HAVING TO GO GET ONE OF THOSE STICKERS TO PAY TO PUT IT ON THE PROPERTY THAT YOU HAVE TO MAINTAIN AND YOU HAVE TO FIX THE SIDEWALK AND ALL THAT STUFF. AND THEN I WOULD ALSO SUGGEST THAT IF, IF THIS REPLACED THE LANGUAGE THAT WAS ORIGINALLY THAT WE ALSO GIVE THAT SAME RIGHT. OR ADD SOMETHING WHERE THE HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATIONS CAN DO THE SAME THING. SO WHERE WE'RE AT ONCE AGAIN, JUST TO KIND OF SEE EVERYBODY IN THE, IN THE CHAPTER, THIS IS TEMPORARY SIGNS ON NON-RESIDENTIAL ZONE PROPERTIES AND NON-REAL USES, SPECIFIC TO SMALL SIGNS. UH, SO SIZE RANGE, ANYTHING LESS THAN 10 SQUARE FEET AND HEIGHT OF THREE FEET ABOVE THE GROUND NOT TO EXCEED. SO WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS, IS NOT WHAT'S ALLOWED OR NOT ALLOWED, IT'S JUST WHAT'S REQUIRED TO BE PERMITTED AND NOT PERMITTED. SO WE'RE NOT CHANGING WHERE YOU CAN INSTALL THE SIGN THE SIGNS PER PERMITTED WOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE INSTALLED IN THE RIGHT OF WAY. CORRECT. UM, IT'S REALLY JUST EXEMPTING THE PERMITTING REQUIREMENT. IF THE INSTALLER IS INSTALLING ON HIS PRIVATE PROPERTY OR RIGHT OF WAY ABUTTING THAT PRIVATE PROPERTY, THAT IS THE REQUEST. NOW STAFF'S CONCERN, ULTIMATELY IT'LL MAKE OUR BANDIT SIGN POLICY AND PROCEDURES MUCH MORE CHALLENGING TO ENFORCE BECAUSE NOW WE'RE LOOKING AT CONTENT. IF IT'S ON THE RIGHT OF WAY, THE STAFF THAT'S JUST KIND OF GOING OUT THERE AND TRYING TO PULL THESE SIGNS UP AS PART OF THE SIGN PROGRAM, WE WON'T KNOW, OH, YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS ISN'T A PERMITTED SIGN, BUT IS THIS WITHIN THE EVENT TIME THAT'S GOING ON? IS IT A BUDDING, YOU KNOW, IS IT BEING ADVERTISED FOR THE OWNED BY THE PROPERTY RIGHT NEXT TO IT? IT'S GONNA ADD, ADD A LOT OF UNKNOWN AND AMBIGUITY TO THAT PROCESS. SO IT'D BE MUCH MORE CHALLENGING FOR US TO BE PULLING THESE SIGNS UP, WHICH ULTIMATELY WOULD LEAD TO MORE BANDAID SIGNS BEING LEFT OUT THERE. SO THAT'S ONE CAUTION WE HAVE WITH THIS APPROACH. MARK, CAN I YES. SAY SOMETHING? UM, I, I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, UH, ABOUT THAT. AND I UNDERSTAND WHAT, WHAT KIND OF AMBIGU THAT KIND OF AMBIGUITY HURTS. I GENERALLY DON'T LIKE TO TRY AND INSERT, WELL, I PROBABLY DO LIKE IT, BUT, UM, YOU KNOW, I KNOW IT'S NOT ALWAYS GOOD TO INSERT CODE IN THAT ARE SPECIFIC TO ONE PARTICULAR INDUSTRY OR SITUATION. RIGHT. BUT AS A, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE APARTMENT COMPLEXES. MY COMPANY DOES, UH, WE'LL PUT A, A BANDIT SIGN ON OUR OWN PROPERTY ON OUR APARTMENT COMPLEX THAT SAYS, YOU KNOW, HEY, WE DON'T DO A CREDIT CHECK. COME, COME CHECK US OUT. UM, THE KIDS WHEN THEY'RE COMING HOME FROM THE SCHOOL BUS, THEY LOVE TO KICK THOSE SIGNS THROUGH. RIGHT. UM, THE IDEA THAT I HAVE TO GO BUY A PERMIT EVERY TIME I REPLACE THIS SIGN TO ME DOESN'T MAKE A LOT OF SENSE. IT'S MY SIGN, IT'S MY PROPERTY. UM, IT'S ON THE PROPERTY LINE CLOSE TO THE, THE RIGHT OF WAY. 'CAUSE WE OBVIOUSLY, WE WANT PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO SEE IT. UM, IT'S OBVIOUS THAT THIS SIGN IS SPECIFIC TO THE BUSINESS THAT IT'S SITTING IN FRONT OF, YOU KNOW? SO [01:00:01] I THINK THERE'S A WAY, AND I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT GONNA SIT HERE AND TRY AND WORDSMITH IT, BUT I, I DON'T WANT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS A VERY LEGITIMATE CONCERN TO GET IN THE WAY OF POSSIBLY MAKING THIS A MORE REASONABLE, UH, YOU KNOW, ORDINANCE OR, YOU KNOW, THAT PART OF THE LAW MORE REASONABLE FOR, FOR SPECIFIC THINGS LIKE THAT. SO IT'S NOT JUST APARTMENTS. IT COULD BE, UM, I DUNNO ANYTHING. MAYBE I'M JUST A, MAYBE I'M JUST A PERSON THAT'S RENTING OUT A, I HAVE ONE RENTAL HOUSE AND I PUT A FOUR RENT SIGN OUT THERE IN FRONT OF IT. UM, YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANNA HAVE TO GET A PERMIT EVERY TIME I DO THAT. IT'S MY PROPERTY. IT'S CLEAR THAT THAT FOR RENT SIGN IS SPECIFIC TO THAT HOUSE. YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE ARE SITUATIONS WHERE WE CAN KIND OF CUT THROUGH THAT AMBI AMBIGUITY AND MAKE A, A GOOD RULE. I MEAN, YOU'RE NOT GOING THROUGH NEIGHBORHOODS AND TELLING THE OWNER OF, OR THE REAL ESTATE AGENT THAT THEY NEED TO MOVE THE SIGN ANOTHER FIVE FEET BACK BECAUSE THEY'RE IN THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY. AND THEY, YOU'RE NOT PULLING THOSE SIGNS DOWN. I MEAN, I I I THINK THE PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT PULLING DOWN THE SIGNS KNOW WHAT'S EASILY CAN TELL THEY CAN'T. MM-HMM. THEY, THEY PULL OUR STUFF WITH PERMITS ALL THE TIME. ALL WELL, NO, I, I UNDERSTAND. BUT THEY'RE NOT GONNA, THEY'RE, THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO TAKE IT DOWN THAN THEY ARE TO LEAVE IT UP. SO IF IT SAYS WASHER AND DRYER REPAIR AND A PHONE NUMBER, THAT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT, YOU KNOW, I AGREE WITH YOU. YEAH. BUT THAT THE, I AGREE THAT THE, THAT DOESN'T GO THAT WAY. WE GET PERMITS FOR SIGNS ALL THE TIME AND THEY STILL GET TAKEN DOWN. WE FOLLOW THE RULES, THEY STILL GET TAKEN DOWN. OKAY. AND IT'S, I AGREE WITH WHAT MIKE IS SAYING AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. THERE SHOULD BE A WAY TO DO THIS TO BE, BUT I DO AGREE WITH WHAT STAFF IS SAYING. I MEAN, FOR EXAMPLE, IN MY HOMEOWNER'S IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD, WHICH HAS A HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION, THERE ARE SIGNS IN THE RIGHT OF WAY ADVERTISING, YOU KNOW, JULY 4TH PARTY AT THE POOL, DON'T CUT YOUR TREES BECAUSE IT'S OAK WILL, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HAVING AN ANNUAL MEETING ON THIS DATE. I THINK THAT THOSE KIND OF SIGNS AND ONES THAT ARE PUT UP ON THE, BY THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THEIR PROPERTY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO GO GET A STICKER EVERY TIME THEY WANT TO PUT IT UP. AND I, NOR DO I THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE TO MARK THE, PUT IT UP AND TAKE IT DOWN THE SECTION. WHEN I HOLD IT THAT CLOSE. I FEEL LIKE I'M SPEAKING TOO LOUD. SORRY. UM, 28 30 SAYS ON-PREMISE SIGNS NOT EXCEEDING ONE SQUARE FOOT OF FACING AND NON-LEAD ATTACHED TO A RESIDENCE APARTMENT, OR MIXED USE BUILDINGS IS SOLELY FOR HOME OCCUPATION PURPOSES. IS I, I THINK THAT THAT COULD BE INTERPRETED TO ALLOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IF WE MAYBE MADE IT MORE THAN ONE FOOT. 'CAUSE A ONE A ONE SQUARE FOOT IS, IS A TINY LITTLE SIGN. 20 8:30 AM I MISREADING THAT? CAN WE GO TO 28 30? CAN Y'ALL MOVE IT TO WHAT MIKE IS TALKING ABOUT? WOULDN'T THIS ALSO APPLY TO THINGS THAT AREN'T NECESSARILY ADVERTISING? IT'S WHEN AN APARTMENT PUTS OUT TO SAY, LET YOUR PIPE STRIP YEAH. DRIP YOUR PIPE OR YOU FREEZE TONIGHT. LET YOUR PIPE STRIP. AND CHRISTIE, I THINK A LOT OF YOUR SIGNS ARE COMING DOWN FROM INDIVIDUALS, NOT FROM, NOT FROM CITY . WELL, TO I AGREE WITH YOU. THERE, THERE ARE VIGILANTES. THEY'RE MY COMPETITORS. THERE ARE THE CITY STAFF. UM, I WILL SAY I DID STOP AND SPEAK TO SOME CODE ENFORCE OFFICERS THAT WERE TAKING SIGNS THAT WERE PERMITTED. AND THEY DID NOT KNOW WHY THEY WERE TAKING IT. THEY WERE JUST TAKING THINGS AND THEY WASN'T, IT WAS JUST A TRAINING, A LACK OF TRAINING MORE. THEY, AND ACTUALLY, IT'S NOT THE SIGNED DEPARTMENT. 'CAUSE THE WAY I UNDERSTAND IT IS ANY CODE ENFORCEMENT, AM I RIGHT ON THAT CAN TAKE THESE SIGNS DOWN. IT'S NOT JUST SIGN THE SIGN THE SIGN DEPARTMENT KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING. THE OTHER CODE ENFORCEMENTS DON'T. AND SO, MIKE, WHAT SECTION? OH, I'M JUST GONNA CLARIFY. IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT, IT'S THAT, BUT IT DOESN'T COUNT. LET'S TRY IT. BUT IT COULD BE ADDED THERE. SO AS A POINT OF CLARIFICATION, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE LANGUAGE THAT YOU'RE WANTING TO INSERT, MY ONLY CONCERN IS THAT IF YOU HAVE A PERMIT, THE GOAL WOULD BE THAT IT'S WITHIN THE TIMEFRAME OF A TEMPORARY SIGN. SO ONCE YOU REMOVE THE PERMITTING, YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN TO ENSURE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE SIGNAGE CLUTTER IN THAT AREA. AND SO I THINK MAYBE THAT'S WHY THE PERMIT WAS REQUIRED. I, I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND NOW. I MEAN, THE PERMIT WAS REQUIRED BECAUSE THE CITY PASSED A ORDINANCE THAT SAID EVERY SIGN IN THE RIGHT OF WAY, BANDIT SIGN IN THE RIGHT OF WAY NEEDED A PERMIT ON IT. I MEAN, I, I DON'T BELIEVE THERE WAS ANY CONSIDERATION TO THAT. BUT THEN IT GOT RIDICULOUS WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE [01:05:01] PUT OUT, LIKE MIKE SAID, A SIGN THAT SAYS, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A TWO BEDROOM, TWO BATH APARTMENT AVAILABLE NOW. SO WE'LL MOVE THOSE SIGNS UP AND THEN, YOU KNOW, WE QUIT USING 'EM BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, EVERY TIME I PUT IT UP, I GOT A CITATION AND I'M NOT GONNA GO DOWN AND GET, YOU KNOW, THE LITTLE STICKER THAT SAYS I CAN DO THAT TO PUT UP A SIGN. YOU KNOW, THE, THE, AND EVEN ALL THE, THE DAYS AS WELL BECAUSE, RIGHT. IN OTHER WORDS, AND WE WANT THE SIGN UP ALL THE, YOU KNOW, 24 7 DURING THAT PERIOD. AND IT'S OUR PROPERTY. AND I ASSURE YOU THAT, YOU KNOW, MOST APARTMENT COMMUNITIES SPEND A FORTUNE MAKING SURE THE FRONT OF THEIR PROPERTY LOOKS REALLY NICE BECAUSE OF IT. IT HAS CURB APPEALS. SO WE'RE NOT GONNA DO ANYTHING THAT'S, YOU KNOW, MOST PEOPLE, I MEAN, I CAN'T SAY EVERYBODY, BUT THERE'S ALWAYS THE BAD ACTORS. YEAH. BUT MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT GONNA LEAVE THOSE UP. AND THAT'S NO DIFFERENT. YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST WHERE THEY CAN BE PUT UP. IN OTHER WORDS, RATHER. BECAUSE MOST APARTMENTS ON THE PROPERTY LINE, ESPECIALLY THE NEWER ONES THAT ARE BEING BUILT TODAY, HAVE A FENCE ON THE PROPERTY LINE FOR SECURITY REASONS. THEY, THEY DON'T WANT ANYBODY BEING ABLE TO GET TO THE INDIVIDUAL HOMEOWNER'S DEAL. AND THE SAME WOULD APPLY, I THINK, TO A HOMEOWNER'S ASSOCIATION THAT PUT THESE UP. YOU KNOW, DO YOU WANT EVERY HOMEOWNER'S ASSOCIATION TO PUT ONE OF THOSE TEMPORARY SIGNS TO HAVE TO GO GET A STICKER EVERY TIME THAT HAPPENS? AND SO THOSE WERE THE TWO AREAS, YOU KNOW, AS A FORMER NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION PRESIDENT, WE PUT THOSE SIGNS UP ALL THE TIME FOR ALL THESE DIFFERENT REASONS, WHETHER IT'S OAK WOKE OR FREEZE WARNING OR, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HAVING A PARADE OR, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER. AND I JUST THINK THOSE, THOSE TWO USES SHOULD BE EXEMPTED FROM HAVING TO GET ANY PERMITS AS LONG AS THE, THE, YOU KNOW, AND MOST OF THESE SIGNS ARE, YOU KNOW, BY 24, 18 BY 24 OR 24 BY 24. SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT IS MY PARTICULAR FEELING BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF, YOU KNOW, WE'RE JUST PUTTING THEM UP AND IF THEY SET, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN COVID, SO I DON'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT IT. 'CAUSE THEY'RE NOT REALLY LOOKING AT IT, BUT IT'S JUST, HUH. NO, BUT I MEAN, IT'S, IT'S JUST RIDICULOUS. I MEAN, IF YOU DO C THOUGH, LIKE IF YOU, YOU WOULD HAVE TO TAKE C OUT TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT YOU'RE WANTING TO DO OTHERWISE. CORRECT. I WANT TO JUST BECAUSE THAT I PUT MOVE THE EXEMPTION TO, 'CAUSE C C REQUIRES YOU TO TAKE THE SIGN UP EACH WEEK. AND SO YOU WANNA BE ABLE TO, I JUST, I JUST THINK THE EXEMPTION SHOULD APPLY. D D IS GOOD BUT C IS C IS NOT GOOD. YOU GO UP JEREMY. 'CAUSE THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ON, ON-PREMISE AND OFF PREMISE. I MEAN. RIGHT. SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK A LOT OF THESE TEMPORARY ONES WHERE THE HOME BUILDERS ARE GO OUT AND THERE'S THE COMPANIES THAT GO OUT AND PUT LIKE 30 SIGNS. YEAH. RIGHT. SO YOU DO THAT, THOSE AREN'T ON-PREMISE. THOSE ARE OFF PREMISE GENERALLY. YEAH. BUT THE WHAT THE PROBLEM THAT YOU'RE RUNNING INTO THOUGH IS THE ABUTTING THE RIGHT OF WAY. I MEAN ASPECT BECAUSE THEY'RE IN THE RIGHT OF WAY. BUT IF YOU PUT A BUDDING RIGHT OF WAY, LIKE I WHAT YOU'RE ASKING I AGREE. I I DO, I DO UNDERSTAND WHAT JEREMY'S SAYING THOUGH, IN REGARDS TO AN ENFORCEMENT ASPECT THAT THEY WILL JUST GO TAKE ANYTHING NO MATTER WHAT. UH, 'CAUSE THEY DON'T LOOK TECHNICALLY THE SIGNS, EVEN IF IT'S LIKE HOUSE FOR SALE OR, I MEAN, UH, YOU KNOW, WE BUY HOUSES, WE BUY CARS. THOSE ARE CLEARLY NOT WHAT THEY, THOSE ARE WHAT SHOULD BE SHOULD BE TAKING UP AS OPPOSED TO OAK WILTS FREEZE WARNINGS AND SUCH. SO YOU WOULD SOMETIMES IT'S JUST AN EDUCATION. JEREMY, MR. CHAIR. YES. HAVING BEEN IN MANAGEMENT FOR A LONG TIME PRIOR TO THIS ORDINANCE. YES. AND POST AND KNOWING THE REASON WHY IT WAS DONE, BECAUSE THE PROLIFERATION OF SIGNS AND HOW OBNOXIOUS THEY WERE. I WONDER IF I, BUT I, I MEAN THEY'RE NECESSARY FOR YOUR BUSINESS AND YOUR BUSINESS. SO IS THERE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE PROPERTY OWNER TO GET A YEAR LONG PERMIT? AND PLUS THE FACT THAT WHETHER THEY'RE ON OFF, YOU KNOW, RIGHT AWAY OR WHATEVER, HALF THE TIME YOUR LEASING AGENTS DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT LINE IS WHEN THEY'RE PUTTING SIGNS OUT. SO IS THERE A WAY TO ALLOW A PROPERTY OWNER TO GET A ONE YEAR PERMIT TO SAY THEY CAN PUT ANY SIGN THEY WANT AND LEAVE THEM OUT AS LONG AS AS THEY WANT. BUT DO YOU TO ACHIEVE WHAT THE PROBLEM WITH WHAT YOU NEED? AND YES, THERE IS A WAY TO DO IT. IF YOU'VE EVER HAD GONE TO THE BUILD SA SITE TO TRY TO PULL THAT PERMIT, IT IS NOT, IF YOU'RE NOT DOING IT ON AN EVERYDAY BASIS, IT IS THE MOST MISERABLE, IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT. IT'S, THAT'S ON Y'ALL OVER THERE, . NO, BUT THAT, IT'S JUST, IT'S NOT, [01:10:01] IT'S NOT EASY IF YOU'RE NOT DOING IT. AND SO MY SUGGESTION RATHER IS THAN TO CREATE MORE REGULATION, IS YOU JUST ADD THAT EXEMPTION IN FOR A AND FOR C AND IN ADDITION TO THE PROPERTY OWNER BEING ABLE TO DO THAT, YOU ADD ALSO POSSIBLY THE HOMEOWNER'S ASSOCIATION TO THAT AREA. AND THEN EVERYBODY JUST DOES IT. IF, IF THE HOMEOWNER'S ASSOCIATION PUTS UP WAY TOO MANY SIGNS AND IT'S CLUTTERED, I GUARANTEE YOU SOMEBODY'S GONNA KNOW ABOUT IT. MM-HMM. WITHIN ABOUT TWO AND A HALF SECONDS. 'CAUSE I GOT CALLS THAT THE DOG IS BARKING NEXT DOOR AND I SHOULD GET UP AT TWO O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING AND GO TELL THE NEIGHBOR TO MAKE HIS DOG. SO, UM, PATTY, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK TO SAY THAT THE LEASING AGENTS DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT LINE IS, HALF THE TIME IS BEING VERY GENEROUS. I'D PUT IT PROBABLY AT LIKE 99.9% OF THE TIME. I MEAN, I THINK GENERALLY, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T PUT IT TO WHERE IT GETS IN THE WAY OF THE SIDEWALK, YOU KNOW, AS A GENERAL RULE, UM, UNLESS IT'S, IF IT'S A GOOD IDEA, I'LL GIVE, I'LL GIVE YOU CREDIT, BUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE, WHEN WE DID THIS A FEW YEARS AGO, UM, YOU KNOW, WHOEVER SAID IT WAS RIGHT, THE PURPOSE WAS THAT THERE WAS JUST, IT WAS OUTTA CONTROL AND WE NEEDED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. AND WE TOOK A FIRST STAB AT IT. AND I THINK WE'RE COMING BACK HERE TO TRY AND REFINE IT. AND I THINK THAT'S PROPER TO DO WHAT WE DID WITH THOSE BIG FLAGS, YOU KNOW, WHICH WERE THE, YOU KNOW, THOSE TALL FLAGS. WE, I THINK WE, UH, IF THEY DON'T HAVE A MESSAGE, YOU DON'T NEED ANYTHING. NO, NO. IT WAS, IT WAS A, IT WAS A SPACING ISSUE. YEAH. YOU SAID YOU COULD ONLY HAVE ONE SO MANY SPACES. SO MAYBE WE COULD DO THE SAME THING WITH THIS TO TRY AND MEET IN THE MIDDLE TO WHERE, YOU KNOW, IT, IT ADDRESSES THE, THAT SIGN AND IT MIGHT ALREADY BE IN THERE. I HAVEN'T, I HAVEN'T REALLY READ, OBVIOUSLY THE WHOLE CODE AND UNDERSTAND IT ALL. IT, THE OFF-PREMISE, ON-PREMISE DISTINCTION I THINK MATTERS HERE. YOU KNOW? 'CAUSE THERE'S SO MANY DIFFERENT LAYERS TO THIS. SO, I MEAN, I THINK THERE'S A WAY TO GET IT DONE. IF, IF THERE'S, IF THE OPINION OF THE COMMITTEE IS, IS THAT IT'S WORTH DOING, I THINK THAT'S THE FIRST STEP. AND THEN MAYBE WE CAN LET STAFF KIND OF FIGURE OUT WHERE TO, WHERE TO PUT IT. IF THAT, IF THAT EXEMPTION WOULD TAKE YOU OUT OF THAT. YEAH, I I MEAN I THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE, ARE GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE IF IT, IF IT, IF THEY'RE NOT, WHEN WE REVIEW THIS AGAIN IN TWO OR THREE YEARS, YOU CAN ADD IT BACK IN. I, I JUST THINK, YOU KNOW, BOTH THE HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATIONS AND THE PROPERTY OWNERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO UTILIZE THEIR PROPERTY AND WHAT'S IN FRONT OF IT. BECAUSE YOU MAKE ME MAINTAIN IT AND DO EVERYTHING. AND IF IT GETS, YOU KNOW, I, I DON'T THINK A, A PROPERTY OWNER'S GONNA PUT 55 SIGNS UP AND HAVING A 200 FOOT SPACING REQUIREMENT FOR THE TEMPORARY SIGNS WHEN IT'S, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LITTLE ITTY BITTY SIGNS IS THOSE PEOPLE WEREN'T GONNA PULL A PERMIT ANYWAY. THEY'RE JUST GONNA PUT IT UP. SO MY QUESTION TO STAFF IS HOW MANY PERMITS HAVE BEEN ISSUED IN THE PAST? MAYBE IF THAT'S SOME DATA YOU CAN PULL, HOW MANY PERMITS HAVE BEEN ISSUED IN THE PAST? LOTS. BECAUSE IT'S ALL THE GREEN STICKER ONES. WELL, I KNOW THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING. WHAT'S THE NUMBER? HEY, MARK. WE DON'T HAVE THE EXACT DATA, BUT TELLING ME AT LEAST MORE THAN A THOUSAND A YEAR. YEAH, THANK YOU. THOUSAND MARK, COULDN'T YOU? WELL, OVER A THOUSAND, TO YOUR POINT, AND TO THE CITY'S POINT OF KNOWING WHICH ONES ARE ON THE PROPERTY OWNER'S PROPERTY. YEAH. COULDN'T YOU PUT AT THE BOTTOM YOUR ADDRESS AND PROPERTY OWNER'S NAME ON THE VERY BOTTOM? YEAH. FOR THE CITY TO IDENTIFY THAT THIS IS THE PROPERTY OWNER'S SIGN. I I THAT I WOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM. I MEAN, A LOT OF THOSE ARE PROBABLY GONNA COME FROM MAYBE THE, THE INTERNETS AND ORDER THEM INSTEAD OF A CUSTOM COMPANY LIKE OURSELVES. AND SO ADDING THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE IN WOULD BE GREAT. WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WOULD BE DO THAT. YEAH. I MEAN, THE HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION BUYS THE SIGNS OFF, YOU KNOW. YEAH. I I DON'T THINK I, I TRULY BELIEVE THAT THE SIGN INSPECTOR AND THE CODE COMPLIANCE OFFICERS ARE, ARE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH ONCE EDUCATED ON WHAT THE RULE IS TO BE ABLE TO DETERMINE THAT THE OAK WILT SIGN THAT'S IN THE RIGHT OF WAY IS PUT UP BY THE HOMEOWNER'S ASSOCIATION AND THE ONE THAT'S IN FRONT OF THE APARTMENT, OR DUPLEX OR FOURPLEX THAT SAYS TWO BEDROOM APARTMENT FOR RENT OR, OR THE FOR SALE SIGN GOES TO THAT PROPERTY. I MEAN, THEY KNOW MOST OF WHAT THIS WAS TRYING TO PREVENT WAS ALL THE LITTLE SIGNS THAT WERE ON THE TELEPHONE POLES. AND, YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S REAL EASY. IF YOU PUT IT UP ON THE TELEPHONE POLE, IT'S NOT ALLOWED. IT COMES DOWN. SO MARK, MARK, HELLO OVER HERE, LARRY. HELLO . GOD, BACK TO SIGN REMOVAL. JUST FIRST. WAIT, WAIT. OKAY. NO, NO, NO, THAT'S FINE. I SAY THAT AGAIN. BACK TO SIGN REMOVAL FOR A SECOND HERE. UM, SO ARE CITY INSPECTORS, OTHER [01:15:01] THAN THOSE IN THE SIGN DIVISION, ALLOWED TO TAKE DOWN SIGNS THAT DO NOT HAVE A MARKING, UM, UH, SHOWING THAT THEY'RE PERMITTED? AND IF THAT IS THE CASE, WHICH I HOPE IT IS, BECAUSE THERE'S FOUR TIMES AS MANY ILLEGAL SIGNS OUT THERE AS THERE ARE LEGAL SIGNS, I MAY BE, UH, THAT MAY BE A SURE. YEAH. UM, SO ANYWAY, IF I COULD JUST GET COMMENT ON THAT. YES. THE ANSWER, THE ANSWER TO THAT IS YES. IT'S NOT JUST THE SIGN, UH, INSPECTORS, UH, WE HAVE A BANDED SIGN PROGRAM THAT, UH, IF THE WEATHER IS GOOD ON SATURDAYS, WE HAVE A TEAM THAT GOES OUT THERE. AND IF THEY DON'T SEE A TAG ON THE SIGN, THEY DO REMOVE IT. UH, I THINK WE DID SHOW NUMBERS AT ONE POINT. IT WAS LIKE OVER 2 MILLION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. UH, SIGN BANDIT SIGNS THAT WE REMOVED. UM, I KNOW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT APARTMENT COMPLEX SPECIFICALLY RIGHT NOW, BUT AGAIN, WHATEVER WE PUT IN THE CODE, IT'S GONNA BE GENERAL. SO YOU'RE GONNA HAVE ALL BUSINESSES, EVERYBODY WANNA PUT A SIGN OR TWO IN FRONT OF THEIR BUSINESS. AND NOW WE'RE GONNA SAY WE CANNOT REMOVE THOSE SIGNS. SO AGAIN, KEEP IN MIND WHATEVER WE'RE GONNA PUT IN THE CODE, IT'S NOT SPECIFIC TO APARTMENT COMPLEXES, IT'S ANY BUSINESS, ANY RESTAURANT, ANY, ANY PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS ENGINEERS, DOCTORS, YOU KNOW, RESTAURANTS, ANYTHING, BASICALLY. SO WE JUST NEED TO BE CAREFUL WITH THAT. YEAH. BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SMALL 18 BY 24 INCH SIGNS. SO IF, IF THE ACCOUNTANT IS DOING INSURANCE, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO, THEY'RE, THEY'RE PUTTING THEM UP NOW WITHOUT THE ONLY, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS, IS IF YOU PUT IT UP IN FRONT OF YOUR PROPERTY, YOU DON'T NEED TO GO GET THE STICKER. CAN I, CAN I ASK A QUESTION? STAFF WAS, BACK WHEN WE DID THIS IN 2017, IT WAS DISCUSSED THAT THESE WERE GONNA POSSIBLY BE ALLOWED TO BE, UM, PURCHASE, SAY LIKE H E B, LIKE A GARAGE SALE PERMIT TYPE THING. WAS THAT EVER IMPLEMENTED AGAIN? I KNOW, RIGHT? MIKE, DID YOU WANNA SAY SOMETHING? YEAH. AND, UM, SO AGAIN, MIKE, SHANNON. SO, UH, WHAT I THINK, UH, I JUST REMEMBER 2017 AFTER THE SUPREME COURT RULING ON THE REED CASE, VERY SPECIFIC ABOUT CONTENT, UH, CONTENT NEUTRALITY REQUIREMENTS. AND, AND, UH, THE TEMPORARY SCIENCE WAS A BIG PART OF THAT. WHAT I WOULD RECOMMEND MAYBE FROM THIS GROUP IS IF YOU ALL CONCEPTUALLY WOULD LIKE US TO THEN TAKE THIS AS A HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENT AND WORK WITH LEGAL, UM, AND, AND PRESENT SOME LANGUAGE. 'CAUSE THE LANGUAGE IS GONNA BE CRITICAL. WHAT I'M HEARING, MARK, IS THAT POSSIBLY FOR COMMERCIAL WE CAN DISTINGUISH BETWEEN COMMERCIAL AND RESIDENTIAL. LIKE NON-RESIDENTIAL, RESIDENTIAL, WE CAN, WE CAN DISTINGUISH BETWEEN ON-PREMISE AND OFF-PREMISE, RIGHT? WE CANNOT SAY THINGS LIKE, HEY, IF IT'S ADVERTISING THAT BUSINESS RIGHT THERE, RIGHT NOW, WE, WE CAN DO ON-PREMISE, OFF-PREMISE. SO IF YOU WANT US TO GO DOWN THE PATH AND LOOK AT A WAY TO MAKE IT ONE EASIER FOR A COMMERCIAL BUSINESS TO PUT WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY THESE TEMPORARY SIZE SIGNS, WHICH IS THE COUPLE OF SQUARE, COUPLE OF SQUARE FEET, UH, WE CAN GO BACK AND SAY, HOW CAN WE MAKE, UH, SOME LANGUAGE OR A PROPOSAL THAT IS LEGAL AND WOULD NOT, UM, YOU KNOW, CREATE THE WILD WEST? BECAUSE REMEMBER THERE WAS A LOT OF PUSHBACK ABOUT BANDIT SIGNS. I STILL GET PUSHBACK FROM NEIGHBORHOODS, BUSINESSES, CITY LEADERSHIP, ABOUT TOO MANY BANDIT SIGNS. ONE, I EAT TOO MANY OF THESE SIGNS, THE FEATHER FLAG SIGNS. RIGHT? THAT WAS A BIG ONE. SO, UH, WE CAN PROBABLY COME UP WITH SOME LANGUAGE IF THIS GROUP THINKS IT'S WORTH WORTH US GOING DOWN. UH, SO MARK, I KNOW YOU'RE, YEAH. YOU'RE JUSTIFYING IT. I THINK YOU'RE DOING A GOOD JOB OF IT. NO, BUT I THINK, I THINK YOU WORKING ON THE LANGUAGE IS, BUT IS EVERYBODY OKAY? NOT, I MEAN, EVERYBODY BUT CONSENSUS. I THINK WHAT MARK'S ASKING FOR IS, HEY, CAN WE MAKE IT SUCH THAT FOR A COMMERCIAL PROPERTY THAT IS ALLOWED TO GET THESE TEMPORARY SIGNS TODAY, BUT FOR A COMMERCIAL PROPERTY TO PUT THEM ON RIGHT OF WAY IN FRONT OF THEIR PROPERTY, MAYBE SOME WAY CONSIDER THAT LIKE ON-PREMISE, EVEN THOUGH IT'S ON THE FRONT STRIP OF THE SIDEWALK. THAT'S RIGHT OF WAY. UM, WITHIN REASON. YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO PUT, YOU KNOW, THEY NEED TO BE SPACING RULES. MAYBE IT'S NOT ADDITIVE. IF, IF YOU'RE GONNA PUT FEATHER FLAG SIGNS WITH PERMITS UP THAT YOU DON'T GET TO DOUBLE DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF 'EM. RIGHT. YOU KNOW, THERE HAS TO BE SOME SPACING. AND, AND THEN, AND THEN ALSO WHAT I HEARD IS HOW CAN WE MAKE IT EASY, UH, IF, YOU KNOW, NOT EVEN, I GUESS IF YOU NEED TO REPLACE A SIGN THAT HAS A PERMIT, HOW DO WE MAKE IT EASY SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO COME AND GET OTHER STUFF? YEAH. AND I WOULD ALSO SUGGEST THAT YOU ADD IN THE SAME KIND OF RULES, WHATEVER YOU'RE GONNA DO [01:20:01] FOR THE HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION WITHIN THE THING. BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE SIGNS THAT THEY HAVE UP IS, EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE THE BIGGEST PROPONENTS OF THIS MM-HMM. , BUT IT'S OKAY FOR THEM TO DO IT. SO I THINK WE SHOULD JUST COVER EVERYBODY WITH A SIMILAR KIND OF RULE. WELL, WE, WE DO HAVE SOMETHING IN THERE FOR RESIDENTIAL TEMPORARY SIGNS ON RESIDENTIAL. SO THE IDEA WE PUT IN THE CODE WAS ON YOUR RESIDENCE. MM-HMM. , RIGHT? OR A, A RESIDENCE, SINGLE FAMILY HOME, DUPLEX, WHATEVER THE FOR SALE SIGNS FOR RENT SIGNS. IF YOU HAVE A PLUMBING COMPANY DOING SOME WORK AND THEY WANT TO, THEY WANT TO FOR TWO WEEKS, PUT A SIGN THAT SAYS THEY'RE, THEY'RE WORKING ON A PLUMBING REMODEL THAT'S ALLOWED NOT CONTENT BASED. THAT'S JUST YEAH. THE TEMPORARY SIGN ALLOWED THERE. AND THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE A PERMIT. RIGHT. BUT, BUT THE HOMEOWNER, SO YOU'RE, YOU'RE ASKING FOR SOMETHING SIMILAR ON, IN FRONT OF WHAT WE CONSIDER COMMERCIAL PROPERTY AND TECHNICALLY ON THE RIGHT OF WAY. THAT IS CORRECT. AS WELL AS COVERING THE HOMEOWNER'S ASSOCIATION SIGNS. YEAH, NO, I THINK, I THINK I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. YEAH. OKAY. WELL, AND THIS IS SPECIFIC TO RIGHT AWAY, YOUR ISSUE IS SPECIFIC TO TO PUBLIC TO RIGHT AWAY. TO RIGHT AWAY. CORRECT. SO CAN'T YOU DO IT THROUGH A ZONING DESIGNATION? YES, EXACTLY. THROUGH A MULTIFAMILY OR RESIDENTIAL ZONING AND TAKE OUT COMMERCIAL MAKE. CAN YOU DO IT THAT WAY? WELL, I DON'T WANT SOLVE IT RIGHT NOW 'CAUSE I THINK THERE'S SO MANY ISSUES ABOUT IT. I MEAN, WE HAVE, WE HAVE THE GENERAL RULE THAT SAYS THOU SHALT NOT PUT ON RIGHT OF WAY WITHOUT AN APPROVED PERMIT. RIGHT. YEAH. AND THIS WOULD BE A, A CHANGE TO THAT. WE DO HAVE NON-RESIDENTIAL AND RESIDENTIAL DISTINGUISHED, WHICH IS TOTALLY LEGAL. UM, BUT, OKAY. SO JUST GETTING BACK TO YOUR, IS THERE ANYBODY CONCEPT, I, WE'LL LOOK AT THE LANGUAGE AT THE NEXT MEETING, BUT IS THERE ANYBODY THAT HAS A MAJOR ISSUE WITH DOING THAT FOR, YOU KNOW, PROPERTY LIKE IN FRONT OF YOUR PROPERTY OR HOMEOWNER'S ASSOCIATIONS BEING ABLE TO PUT UP SIGNS WITHIN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT? I THINK YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK. THANK YOU, BIANCA. I DO TOO. I JUST WANTED TO ADD THE SAME COMMENTS, MIKE. THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING TO LOOK AT HOLISTICALLY THE NUMBER THAT WOULD BE PERMISSIBLE BASED ON MAYBE THE WIDTH OF A LOT SO THAT WE DON'T GET THE SATURATION. YEAH. BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY WHY THIS RULE BEGAN. YEAH. OR WHY THIS BEGAN. YEAH. SO I THINK THAT'S A CRITICAL POINT. AND THEN ADDRESSING CORNER LOTS IS ALSO A CRITICAL ELEMENT. UM, AND NOT OBSTRUCTING THE VIEW OF A RIGHT OF WAY WHEN YOU'RE COMING, ENTERING AND EXITING THE PROPERTY. THANK YOU. OKAY. I THINK THOSE ARE GOOD IDEAS. WE'LL, WE'LL WORK ON, I THINK WE'LL WORK ON SOMETHING. IT'S GONNA BE, IT IS GONNA BE DIFFICULT. THERE'S, I I'M, I'M THINKING OF A LOT OF THE DISCUSSION WE HAD FIVE YEARS AGO AND THEN A LOT OF THE PIECES. AND I WILL DEFINITELY, UM, HAVE TO BUY OUR CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE LUNCH, UH, BECAUSE THEY'RE GONNA THEY'RE GONNA KEEP US OUT OF TROUBLE. UM, BUT WE'LL WORK ON THAT CONCEPTUALLY AND SEE WHAT WE CAN BRING, UH, TO THE TABLE. OKAY. OKAY. THANK YOU. ON THAT NOTE, UH, THIS IS JOSEPH HARNEY, CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE. ON THAT NOTE, SPECIFICALLY ON THE RIGHT OF WAY AND DOING AWAY WITH THE PREMISE, THERE ARE OTHER SECTIONS OF THE CODE, UH, SPECIFICALLY CHAPTER 37 ON, ON CITY, YOU KNOW, PROPERTY THAT IS CITY OWNED, EVEN EVEN AN EASEMENT. AND, AND DOING AWAY WITH THE PERMIT MIGHT CAUSE SOME CONFLICT IN SOME OTHER SECTIONS, DIFFERENT SECTIONS OF, OF THE CODE, EVEN THERE MAY EVEN BE A CHARTER PROVISION. SO THAT'S SOMETHING ELSE WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO LOOK AT. OKAY. SO CHAIR, JUST MOVING FORWARD, 'CAUSE WE'VE KIND OF MOVED AWAY FROM PERMIT, NOT PERMIT, YOU WERE MENTIONING THINGS ABOUT LIKE ITEM C AND WHEN AND WHERE AND DISTANCES GOT BROUGHT UP. I MEAN, I WANNA MAKE SURE WE GO THROUGH THIS PROCESS. WE'RE KIND OF, UH, GOING AFTER WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR. ARE YOU LOOKING FOR JUST A, WHEN IT'S GONNA REQUIRE PERMIT AND NOT REQUIRE PERMIT? ARE YOU ALSO LOOKING FOR IT TO BE EXEMPT FOR SOME OF THESE SECTIONS AS WELL? WELL, I THINK THE, THE TIMING WHERE IT HAS TO COME DOWN AT CERTAIN TIMES OF THE DAY OR NIGHT IS NOT, YOU KNOW, SHOULD NOT BE IN THAT SECTION. SO I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU, AND, AND MAYBE RATHER THAN TRYING TO ADDRESS IT IN THIS SECTION THAT YOU COME UP WITH A SEPARATE SECTION THAT JUST DEALS WITH THIS, THAT HAS THE RULES IN IT FOR, YOU KNOW, WELL, I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW IF IT WOULD BE A DIFFERENT SECTION 'CAUSE MEAN BEING CONTENT NEUTRAL, THIS IS NO SMALL TO VERY SCIENCE. NO, IT'S, NO, NO, NO. IT, IT WOULD BE CONTENT NEUTRAL, BUT IT, BUT IT, IT WOULD DIVIDE THE SIGNS THAT ARE BEING PUT UP IN THE RIGHT OF WAY AS EITHER ON-PREMISE OR OFF-PREMISE, COMING UP WITH TWO DIFFERENT SETS OF RULES. SO THE OFF-PREMISE SIGNS THAT ARE BASICALLY WOULD FOLLOW ALL THE RULES THAT ARE THERE NOW AND THEN COME UP WITH A DIFFERENT SECTION FOR ON-PREMISE THAT JUST DEALS WITH THAT WHICH COULD ON-PREMISE SLASH A BUDDING RIGHT OF WAY. YEAH. OKAY. YEAH. AND, AND THE INTENT IS THERE'D BE NO REQUIREMENT FOR WHEN IT CAN AND CANNOT BE DISPLAYED. YEAH. I I THINK HE WOULD TAKE THAT DOWN. RIGHT. BUT I THINK SPACING IS THE BIGGER ISSUE, SO YEAH. OKAY. SO IT BE ALL RIGHT NOW I JUST [01:25:01] WANNA GET CONSISTENT WITH, AND WE MAY TAKE IT DOWN EVERY NIGHT AND PUT IT UP EVERY MORNING SO THAT THEY DON'T DISAPPEAR OVERNIGHT, YOU KNOW, BUT, BUT THAT SHOULD BE THE OPTION. SAME WITH THE HOMEOWNER'S ASSOCIATION. AND I THINK ON THE ON-PREMISE SIGNS, I WOULD ADD IN SOME WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, YOU KNOW, THE HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION TO THOSE SAME ROOFS BECAUSE THEY'RE, THEY'RE GONNA SELF-POLICE THEMSELVES AND THEY'RE NOT ALL HOAS. THEY'RE SOME THAT ARE NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATIONS. NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATIONS. SO JUST ENSURE THAT THERE'S COMMONALITY OF LANGUAGE THAT'S USED. YEAH. WELL, I MEAN ONCE, I MEAN, THAT'S A CONTENT ISSUE, SO WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO JUST DEFINE THAT AT ALL. IT WOULD BE SPECIFIC TO, YEAH, IT WOULD'VE GO TO ZONING, MAYBE ZONING, RESIDENTIAL, NON-RESIDENTIAL, AND THEN THIS TYPE OF SIGN AND THIS TYPE OF LOCATION. UM, AND THEN THE FINAL ONE, WE WERE KIND OF TALKING BACK TO POLICING AND YOU KNOW, ONCE AGAIN, AS WE WERE SAYING THE BAND SIGN, I MEAN, WE REALLY KIND OF, ANY D S D STAFF COULD GO OUT ON ONE OF THESE, YOU KNOW, THINGS. SO TO TRY TO, YOU KNOW, MAKE IT TO WHERE WE CAN STILL POLICE SIGNS THAT SHOULD NOT BE OUT THERE. YEAH. WE'VE MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, HAVING SOME FORM OF NOTIFICATION ADDRESS WHO OWNS IT, YOU KNOW, PUTTING SOMETHING IN THERE THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETHING WE WOULD CODIFY. AND I WANNA MAKE SURE I DIDN'T MISS THAT. IS THAT, YEAH, I DON'T, SOMETHING THAT'S GONNA YEAH, I THINK THAT NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO BE DONE OR IS THAT SOMETHING WE CAN CODIFY? YOU JUST ADD THAT COULDN'T IT EVEN BE A STICKER OR ANYTHING? IT WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE SOMETHING PRINTED, BUT I MEAN, YOU JUST YEAH, I MEAN, WE COULD PUT SOMETHING ON THE BACK OF THE, I I MEAN YOU COULD PUT SOMETHING ON THE BACK OF THE, THE THING WITH A A STICKER WOULD BE NO BIG DEAL AS LONG AS YOU'RE NOT HAVING TO CHANGE THE, THE FACE OF THE SIGN. I MEAN, YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK, I THINK THE GENERAL INTENT IS CLEAR. I MEAN, I, WE DON'T, I LIKE, LIKE I SAID, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE NEED TO SOLVE IT HERE. NO, AGREED. YEAH. I'M NOT TRYING TO, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE MY GUIDELINES THAT IF I SAY PUT LINK, YOU HAVE TO, YOU HAVE HAVE A STICKER ON THE SIGN TO SAY IT'S OKAY. YOU KNOW, WE'LL PUT A STICKER ON THE THING. WELL, MY PREFERENCE WOULD BE WE MORE STICKERS THEN WE'RE TRYING TO NO, NO, NOT A STICKER BY US. JUST LIKE WE, WE SAY WHAT INFORMATION? I'M NOT TALKING, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT A CITY STICKER. I'M TALKING ABOUT A LABEL. YEAH, I I CAN PRODUCE IT AND PRINT IT, WHATEVER YOU NEED. I'M SAYING SOME PEOPLE THOUGH, GET THEM OFF OF THE INTERNET. YEAH. AND LIKE CHEAPO SIGNS DON'T. NO, BUT THEN YOU WOULD PUT ON THE BACK OF THE SIGN. YEAH. YOU CAN GO AND GET LABEL ENVELOPE, PRINTER LABEL AND PUT IT ON THEIR THING AS OUR INTENT. WE JUST, OKAY. SO I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE I DON'T GO THROUGH THE WHOLE PROCESS OF CODIFYING ALL THIS AND THEN IT GET TOLD THAT'S NOT GONNA WORK. MY PREFERENCE WOULD BE IS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT IF YOU ALL FEEL IT'S NECESSARY, THAT WOULD BE A OKAY TRICK. WELL, I MEAN, WE, YEAH, WE'LL LOOK AT POLICY AND PROCEDURES, LIKE I SAID, WE JUST WANNA MAKE SURE, BUT MOVING FORWARD, YES. NEXT ITEM. SO IS THERE A CONSENSUS THAT WE'RE GOOD? OKAY. SO ALL OF THAT DISCUSSION. YEAH. , YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE A MOTION WITH ALL THAT DISCUSSION. YEAH, WELL, NO, IT WAS CONSENSUS TO DIRECT STAFF TO DO THAT. THEY'LL COME BACK WITH THE LANGUAGE. YEAH. OKAY. JEREMY, NEXT ITEM. ARE WE GONNA GO BACK TO NUMBER THREE? HONOR? I'M GONNA MOVE US BACK TO ITEM NUMBER THREE. SO THIS WAS SUBMITTED BY LIDDELL TOY, UH, BOARD MEMBER AND COMMITTEE MEMBER FOR THIS COMMITTEE, REQUEST FOR THE BUILDING RELATED FIRE CODES AND APPEAL AND ADVISORY BOARD SIGN CODE COMMITTEE TO RECOMMEND AMENDING THE CORRIDOR STANDARDS FOR THE HILL COUNTRY GATEWAY CORRIDOR GC DASH ONE AS PASSED AND APPROVED ON JANUARY 18TH, 2015, UNDER ORDINANCE NUMBER 2 0 1 15 0 6 18 0 6 0 3, AND REMOVING THE PROHIBITION OF ON-PREMISE DIGITAL SIGNS UNDER ON-PREMISE SIGNAGE PER THAT ORDINANCE. NOW, I DO WANT TO SAY THAT LIDDELL HAD, WAS GOING TO BE HERE, BUT HE DID HAVE A FIVE EMERGENCY AND, AND COULDN'T BE HERE. SO I DON'T KNOW IF WE WANNA TAKE ACTION ON, WELL, I DON'T, I DON'T NECESSARILY DISCUSSION WANT TO TAKE ACTION, BUT I I WANT TO JUST GO OVER WHAT HAPPENED BECAUSE IN CASE SOMEBODY WASN'T HERE FOR THE FIRST MEETING. SO THIS ORDINANCE PASSED LIMITING, UH, DIGITAL SIGNS IN THAT CORRIDOR, AND INADVERTENTLY THE CITY ISSUED TWO OR THREE OF THOSE PERMITS BECAUSE IT JUST HAPPENED. THE, THE REASON IS NOT IMPORTANT. IT JUST HAPPENED. SO NOW OTHER PEOPLE WANT TO COME INSTALL THE SAME KIND OF SIGNS. THEY'RE NEIGHBORS AND THAT'S WHERE WE'RE AT. WHAT I, WHAT I HAVE COMMITTED TO LIDDELL IS LIKE I HAVE WITH EVERYBODY ELSE BECAUSE HE'S NOT HERE. UH, I, WELL, I WANT TO GIVE HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE HERE, BUT I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO GIVE HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW WHERE THE COMMITTEE SITS JUST, AND, AND IT'S NOT AN OFFICIAL VOTE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, BUT MY GUESS IS, YOU KNOW, THE, ONE OF THE ORIGINAL PROPONENTS OF THE GATEWAY WAS BONNIE CONNOR. AND SHE'S ADAMANT AGAINST CHANGING IT. COUNCILMAN ELIAS HAS NO APPETITE FOR TAKING THE ISSUE [01:30:01] UP AT ALL, WHICH MEANS THAT THE GATEWAY CORRIDOR, UH, IS NOT GONNA GET MODIFIED. AND SO, AND I AM ASSUMING THAT, YOU KNOW, UNLESS THERE IS STRONG, UH, SOMEBODY HAS SOME GOOD REASONS WHY WE SHOULD BE TAKING THIS UP, THAT, YOU KNOW, WE MAY JUST, YOU KNOW, EITHER DELAY IT AND GIVE, UH, LIDDELL THE SENSE OF THE GROUP AND SAY, OKAY, DO YOU STILL WANT TO GO FORWARD OR DO YOU WANT TO WITHDRAW IT? I CAN CERTAINLY GET WITH LIDDELL IF YOU WANNA DISCUSS THIS TODAY. YEAH. BUT I MEAN, IS THERE ANYBODY THAT THINKS THAT THE RULE, THE GATEWAY CORRIDOR RULE SHOULD BE CHANGED AND ALLOW FOR DIGITAL SCIENCE? YES. OKAY. CAN YOU, WHY? WHY DON'T WE, OH, NO, . YEAH, . SO, OKAY, BECAUSE WE'RE 50 50 ON IT. WE'LL WAIT TILL LIDDELL IS HERE. AND THEN IF YOU'LL SAVE, UH, FORMER COUNCILWOMAN CONNOR'S COMMENTS FOR MEETING. I CAN'T HOLD HER COMMENT UNTIL WE GO THERE. I WROTE IT INTO THE RECORD WHEN WE TAKE ACTION, SO IT'S OKAY. THANK YOU. SO WE'RE GONNA, GONNA TO TABLE THIS. CAN, CAN WE ALSO YES. UNDERSTAND, I GUESS THE LACK OF ENFORCEMENT? I MEAN, THERE'S, HOW MANY OF THESE SIGNS ARE UP NOW? SIX OR SEVEN. SO THERE'S 11 SIGNS IN THAT CORRIDOR. 11 SEVEN WERE THERE BEFORE THE CHANGE. SO SOME OF THESE WERE, ARE LEGAL SIGNS THAT WERE INSTALLED PRIOR. FOUR WERE INSTALLED AFTER THE ADOPTION, THE AMENDMENT. SO THE ORIGINAL CORRIDOR WAS BACK IN 2003. IT DIDN'T HAVE THIS PROHIBITION OF DIGITAL SIGNS UNDER ON-PREMISE SIGNAGE THAT WAS ADDED UNDER THE 2015. UM, AND I WANNA SAY THE REVIEW PROCESS OF THOSE FOUR MAYBE LOOKS LIKE OUR DIRECTOR WANTS TO TAKE THAT ONE. SO I TRIED. I KNOW, BUT TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, ALL RIGHT. SO THE, UH, THE CORRIDOR WAS CREATED WITH DESIGN, UH, STANDARDS IN 2003, UH, BY THE MAYOR AND COUNCIL THAT, UH, AT THAT TIME, UH, UH, MS. CONNOR WAS THE DISTRICT EIGHT REPRESENTATIVE. UH, I THINK SHE WAS PART OF THE, THE LEADING CHARGE. I WASN'T PART OF IT THEN, BUT, UH, ALL THE RESEARCH SUGGESTS, UM, THAT WAS THE CASE. IT DID NOT INCLUDE AT THAT TIME A RESTRICTION ON DIGITAL SIGNAGE. IT HAD SOME SIGN RULES, RIGHT? JUST LIKE IT HAD WITH, UH, BUILDING LOOKS AND FEELS AND FENESTRATION AND ET CETERA. IN 2015, UM, THE CITY, UH, UPDATED THE GATEWAY CORRIDOR. IT WENT THROUGH A PROCESS. UM, AND AT THE, UH, AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE PROCESS, AT THE ZONING COMMISSION, THERE WAS A RECOMMENDATION, UH, TO ADD A RESTRICTION TO DIGITAL SIGNS. AT THAT POINT, A MONTH LATER, IT WENT TO COUNCIL AND IT WAS PASSED WITH THAT, THAT NEW RESTRICTION. UH, THERE WAS SOME OTHER TWEAKS AND CHANGES TO THE GATEWAY CORRIDOR, OF COURSE. UM, BUT THAT WAS ADDED, UM, YOU KNOW, TOWARDS THE END. BUT THROUGH THE PROCESS. UH, AND SO IN 2015, UH, THE CODE WAS CHANGED AFTER 2015, UH, SIGN APPLICATIONS KEPT COMING IN. THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER, UH, D S D STAFF, UH, INCORRECTLY IN ERROR ISSUED A COUPLE PERMITS AT FOUR, ACTUALLY, UH, BETWEEN 2015 AND 2019, I THINK 20, 20 19. UH, AND ACTUALLY, AND THAT WAS AN INTERNAL, JUST WE, WE, WE MADE AN ERROR. UH, SO THAT CONVERSATION CAME UP, UM, AND WE, WE, WE, WE SAID, WELL, ONCE WE FOUND OUT WE WOULD TALK TO LIDDELL, LIDDELL BROUGHT IT UP TO US. UM, AND, UH, WE SAID WE WOULD BRING IT TO THE SIGN COMMITTEE. WE THOUGHT WE WERE GONNA BE HERE IN 20 19, 20 20, RIGHT. UM, BUT WE SAID WE WOULD TALK ABOUT THIS AT THE MEETING IF HE WANTED TO PROPOSE IT AND SEE WHAT THE COMMITTEE, UH, FELT LIKE, UH, AND, AND HOW TO MOVE FORWARD. SO THAT'S, THAT'S KIND OF WHERE WE'RE AT, UH, RIGHT NOW. THAT CHANGE WENT TO CITY COUNCIL WITHOUT ANY INPUT FROM THE SIGN INDUSTRY, BY THE WAY. YEAH. SO THAT, WHERE IS THE GATEWAY CORRIDOR? CAN SOMEBODY EXPLAIN WHERE, WHERE THIS EVEN IS? I THINK IT'S I 10. IT'S EXTEND BETWEEN, UH, U T S A BOULEVARD NORTH TO BERNIE STAGE ROAD, SOMETHING RIGHT THERE. AND SO PAST BERNIE STAGE ROAD, IS THAT ABOUT RIGHT, EVERYBODY? DID I DESCRIBE THAT RIGHT? YES. YEAH, I MEAN, JUST GIVE A GENERAL OVERVIEW. SO ONCE YOU GET PAST BERNIE STAGE ROAD, YOU CAN PUT UP ACTUALLY CLOSER TO THE HILL COUNTRY. YOU CAN PUT UP WHATEVER YOU WANT BECAUSE IT'S UNINCORPORATED OR IN BERNIE OR, SO IT REALLY, YEAH. YEAH. OKAY. BIANCA, SO I HAVE A CLARIFICATION 'CAUSE I HAVE A BIG ISSUE WITH ENFORCEMENT. UM, THE CITY HAS THE RIGHT TO RESCIND PERMITS, DO THEY NOT WHEN THEY AIR MM-HMM. . AND SO IN THESE PARTICULAR CASES, WHY DID THE CITY NOT RESCIND THE PERMITS IN THIS CASE? BECAUSE WE KNEW THERE WOULD BE A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO CHANGE THE CODE. BUT CERTAINLY IF THE DECISION [01:35:01] IS, UH, NOT TO CHANGE THE CODE, UH, WE'LL LIKELY HAVE TO THEN TALK TO THE BUSINESS OWNERS THAT, HEY, WE, WE WE'RE GONNA GO THROUGH THE PROCESS OF REVOKING IT. UH, THEY'LL HAVE THEIR DUE PROCESS TO APPEAL ALL THAT, AND WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS. UH, BUT AT THIS POINT, BECAUSE WE KNEW THIS CONVERSATION WAS GONNA HAPPEN, UM, WE WANTED TO LET THIS PROCESS HAPPEN TO DETERMINE WHICH WAY, UH, TO GO WITH ENFORCEMENT ON THESE, UM, REALLY THESE, THESE ERRORED PERMITS. AND, AND MY GUESS IS, IS THE CITY AT THAT POINT IS GONNA HAVE TO WRITE A BIG CHECK TO PAY FOR THAT SIGN. SO IN SOME CASES, THESE SIGNS ARE A COUPLE OF HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS, UH, ON THESE PERMITS THAT WERE ISSUED, BY THE WAY. YEAH. SO ANYTHING OR MODIFY THE ORDINANCE, BECAUSE THAT'S MY MY SECOND QUESTION. OH, I'M SORRY, BIANCA, WERE YOU NOT DONE? I APOLOGIZE. NO, PLEASE. I WAS ALSO GONNA SAY, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY TO HIS WHOLE POINT ABOUT THE COST OF THAT, THE CITY HAS A HISTORY OF RESCINDING PERMITS TOO, AND IT HAS BEEN COSTLY IN THE PAST. AND SO I DON'T THINK THAT'S OUT OF THE REALM, BUT I THINK IT'S UNFORTUNATE FOR STAKEHOLDERS WHO GO THROUGH A PROCESS AND ARE INVESTED IN IT, THAT THERE'S AN OVERSIGHT THAT ALLOWS THIS TO HAPPEN. UM, AND TO SAY, OH, WELL, BECAUSE THEY MADE AN ERROR, WE SHOULD RELEASE THE RESTRICTIONS THAT WE HAVE IN THAT AREA. I DON'T THINK WE WOULD'VE APPLIED FOR PERMITS HAD WE KNOWN ABOUT THIS CHANGE, BY THE WAY. YEAH. I MEAN, PART, PART OF THE PROCESS, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK MIKE ALLUDED TO WHAT HIS RECOMMENDATIONS ARE WHEN, WHEN, YOU KNOW, GROUPS WANT TO CHANGE SOMETHING, IS THE STAKEHOLDERS THAT ARE AFFECTED NEED TO BE NOTIFIED AND AT LEAST PART OF THE PROCESS. AND I THINK THIS IS ANOTHER CASE WHERE, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING GOES TO A COUNCIL COMMITTEE, YOU KNOW, AND THEY DECIDE SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN OR, AND THEN IT HAPPENS, AND NOBODY HAS A CLUE THAT IT'S GOING ON. AND SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE IMPORTANT LESSONS IS, IS THAT IF THERE'S TRANSPARENCY AND, AND PEOPLE KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON, THEY HAVE A CHANCE ON EITHER SIDE OF AN ISSUE TO PARTICIPATE, LET THEIR ELECTED OFFICIALS KNOW HOW THEY FEEL. AND, AND IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST TIME. AND I JUST THINK AS A CITY, WE ALL NEED TO GET BETTER AT THAT PROCESS OF INCLUSION. AND, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T STOP SOMEBODY FROM MAKING A LAST MINUTE AMENDMENT TO, YOU KNOW, A, A COUNCIL ORDINANCE OR THE COMMITTEE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ABOVE OUR PAY GRADE. WELL, AND TO THAT HOPEFUL POINT, BUT IF THEY WOULD'VE, BUT IF THE COUNCIL WOULD HAVE SAID, OKAY, YOU KNOW, DIGITAL SIGNS ARE ALLOWED EVERYWHERE WITHOUT CONSULTING ANYBODY, A DIFFERENT GROUP OF PEOPLE WOULD'VE BEEN UPSET. AND I JUST THINK PART OF IT IS WE NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB OF THAT. BUT THE PEOPLE THAT ACTED DID EVERYTHING RIGHT AND GOT A PERMIT AND, YOU KNOW, DID EVERYTHING, IF THE CITY'S GONNA MAKE THEM TAKE THAT DOWN OR MODIFY THE SIGN, YOU KNOW, IF YOU BOUGHT A HOUSE AND, YOU KNOW, LEGALLY THE CITY, IF ANY PART OF YOUR HOUSE WAS DONE WITHOUT PERMIT, COULD MAKE YOU WRECK THE HOUSE, THAT WOULDN'T BE FAIR TO THE HOMEOWNER. AND SO I JUST THINK FAIRNESS HAS TO PLAY INTO ONE OF OUR DOCTRINES. YOU KNOW, I DISAGREE BECAUSE MIKE JUST EXPLAINED THAT THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO GO AND SEEK A VARIANCE. IS THERE NOT IF IN, IF IN FACT, THE CITY? WELL, THEY, I, I, THERE'S NOT A VARIANCE PER SE. IT WOULD BE IF WE, IF, IF I, AS THE BUILDING OFFICIAL, UH, REVOKE SOMEONE'S PERMIT, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT PERMIT IT IS BECAUSE OF, I BELIEVE IT'S IN, NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE CODE. AND I THINK I HAVE THE LEGAL ABILITY TO REVOKE THAT PERMIT, UH, THAT'S, THAT'S COVERED UNDER CHAPTER 10. IN THIS CASE, IT'D BE 28 AND 10 THAT THEY COULD APPEAL THAT TO THE BUILDING AND FIRE CODES APPEALS AND ADVISORY BOARD. UH, SO IT WOULD BE AN APPEAL, UH, TO DETERMINE IF THAT'S AN APPROPRIATE REVOCATION OR NOT. SO I, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT MAY STILL BE IN PLAY, BUT I THINK IN, YOU KNOW, TO BIANCA'S POINT, YOU KNOW, I WISH I COULD SAY OUR DEPARTMENT NEVER MADE ERRORS. IT HAPPENS. UH, WE TAKE THAT VERY SERIOUSLY. WE LEARN FROM THAT AND MOVE FORWARD. BUT WE, WE ADDRESS EACH ONE INDIVIDUALLY TO DETERMINE, UH, WHAT THE ISSUE IS AND WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO RECTIFY IT. I MEAN, I WANT THINGS TO COME BACK INTO CODE. AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, BECAUSE WE KNEW THERE'S GONNA BE SOME DISCUSSION, UH, THERE IS AN ARGUMENT WHETHER WHEREVER THIS LANDS, SHOULD WE EVEN HAVE THIS IN THE CODE OR SHOULD IT STAY? I WANT TO HEAR FROM THE COMMITTEE AND THEN DETERMINE IF THIS THING IS GONNA MOVE FORWARD OR NOT. IF IT'S NOT, OR LET'S JUST SAY THIS, IF IT WAS AND EVERYBODY WAS COOL [01:40:01] WITH A CHANGE TO ALLOW THEM, THEN IN SIX MONTHS TIME, THOSE FOUR ERRORS WOULD BE QUOTE UNQUOTE LEGAL POSSIBLY. SO I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY GO THROUGH A REVOCATION PROCESS AND THEN GIVE IT BACK TO THEM. HOWEVER, IF YOU TELL ME, HEY, THROUGH THIS PROCESS IT'S NOT GONNA BE CHANGED AND IT'S STILL AN ERROR, THEN THAT'S GONNA CAUSE ME TO GO TO THE OTHER ROUTE PROBABLY AND SAY, START HAVING THAT DISCUSSION WITH THE OWNER. UH, THERE ARE SOME, AS MARK ALLUDED, AND I KNOW MARK'S NOT AN ATTORNEY, AND HE'LL TELL YOU THAT, UH, THERE, THERE'S SOME LEGAL QUESTIONS THAT'LL, THAT'LL BE ADDRESSED. SO THAT'S, THAT'S, I MEAN, THAT'S THE ANSWER RIGHT THERE TO THE WHOLE POINT OF PUBLIC PARTICIPATION AND ENGAGEMENT WITH THE STAKEHOLDERS WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THAT AREA. THOSE OF US SITTING AROUND THIS TABLE, IT'S NOT A BALANCED REPRESENTATION OF STAKEHOLDERS IN THAT AREA. SO TO TRULY HAVE, PER THE CITY'S ADOPTED ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTIVE FOR PRINCIPLES OF PUBLIC PARTICIPATION, YOU CAN CONVENE A TASK FORCE OF INDIVIDUALS IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA. I DON'T THINK, I THINK THIS IS TOO BIG FOR US TO TAKE ON AND MAKE A DECISION. I DON'T THINK WE HAVE A BALANCED REPRESENTATION ON THE VOTING MEMBERS AND THE NON-VOTING MEMBERS, YOU KNOW, THE DISCOUNTED VOTES, UM, FOR THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE. THAT'S MY PERSONAL OPINION, AND I UNDERSTAND THERE'S AN ERROR INVOLVED AND THERE'S MORE LEGALITIES BEHIND IT. BUT FUNDAMENTALLY, I WOULD THINK IF SOMEBODY WAS GOING TO CHANGE, AND I LOOK AT IT LIKE MY HISTORIC DISTRICT, THEY WANTED TO LOOK AT SPECIFIC GUIDELINES IN THAT AREA THAT WE WOULD HAVE PEOPLE FROM THOSE AREAS AND THOSE, UH, LANDOWNERS IN THAT AREA REPRESENTED. AND WE DON'T HAVE THAT HERE AT THIS TABLE. AND SO FOR THAT REASON, I WOULD NOT SUPPORT US TAKING ANY ACTION ON THAT ITEM. THANK YOU. I'D LIKE TO SAY A COUPLE THINGS, MARK, EVEN IF THE RECOMMENDATION WAS TO LEAVE IT ALONE AND NOT TO TAKE IT UP, SO WOULD WELL LEAVE TO LEAVE IT ALONE AND NOT TAKE IT UP, ESSENTIALLY. YEAH. SO, SO IF YOU, YEAH, SO I JUST WANT TO BE MARK, CAN I SAY SOMETHING? YEAH, A COUPLE THINGS ACTUALLY. FIRST OF ALL, I'M ABOUT THE REVOCATION. I MEAN, MIKE ALLUDED TO IT. I MEAN, NOBODY ANYWHERE, WHETHER THEY BE A BUSINESS ENTITY, A GOVERNMENT ENTITY OR NOT, IS ERROR FREE. AND WE, THEY, THERE WERE SOME MISTAKES MADE. THEY DID NOT ACCIDENTALLY ISSUE A PERMIT FOR NUCLEAR WASTE DISPOSAL IN THE CORRIDOR, OR IS AN ELECTRIC SIGN, OF WHICH THERE WERE ALREADY, YOU KNOW, SEVEN AND, AND WE ACCIDENTALLY APPROVED FOUR. SO WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, IN MY OPINION, A A TREMENDOUS, UM, YOU KNOW, BLIGHT ON SOCIETY THAT THAT WAS ACTUALLY ACCIDENTALLY PERMITTED TO MIKE'S POINT, THEY COULD REVOKE IT, IT WOULD GO TO THE APPEALS. I'M NOT GONNA SPEAK FOR THE APPEALS AND ADVISORY BOARD. I SIT ON IT. UM, AND I WOULD, I WOULD, YOU KNOW, I WOULD ENJOY THAT APPEAL IF IT CAME TO ME, UM, NOT ENJOY IT, BUT I WOULD, I WOULD HEAR IT, UM, SO THAT, THAT, THAT'S THAT POINT. YEAH. AS TO THE REPRESENTATION POINT, I THINK THAT, UM, I, YOU KNOW, IF YOU LEFT IT, IF YOU, IF IT WAS A TASK FORCE OF THE PEOPLE IN THAT ZONE, OF COURSE THEY'RE GONNA SAY, NO, DON'T DO ANYTHING TO OUR ZONE. JUST LIKE IF YOU, IF YOU LEFT EVERY DECISION THAT AFFECTED A NEIGHBORHOOD, UH, TO A HISTORIC NEIGHBORHOOD, NOTHING WOULD PROBABLY EVER BE APPROVED, YOU KNOW? SO I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A PUBLIC MEETING. PEOPLE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO COME TO COME HERE, THE AGENDA IS PUBLISHED. IF THEY'RE INTERESTED, THEY WOULD BE HERE AND, AND WE WOULD BE HAPPY TO HEAR THEIR OPINION. THE LAST THING I'LL SAY IS, UM, THIS IS A CORRIDOR THAT WAS CREATED ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO. UM, THE CITY'S QUITE CHANGED QUITE A BIT IN THAT 20 YEARS. I THINK ANYBODY THAT'S DRIVEN THIS, THIS STRETCH OF HIGHWAY, UH, WOULD BARELY RECOGNIZE IT BETWEEN NOW AND THEN. I THINK THAT ELECTRIC SIGNS ARE PERMITTED TO THE REST OF, OF US IN, UH, IN AND AROUND THE CITY, UM, THAT THIS VERY HIGH INCOME PORTION OF THE CITY TO BE EXEMPTED FROM. UH, YOU KNOW, ELECTRIC SIGNS, WHICH I'VE SAID BEFORE, I DON'T THINK ARE APPLIED ON THE CITY IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM. UM, I, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S WORTH HEARING LATOYA OUT AND HEARING WHAT HE HAS TO SAY. THERE MIGHT BE SOME FORMER CON UH, COUNCIL PEOPLE WHO, WHO DON'T LIKE IT. AND I, WE DEFINITELY, I THINK IT'S WORTH HEARING THEIR OPINION. BUT, UM, YOU KNOW, THE WORLD CHANGES AND THE CITY NEEDS TO CHANGE WITH IT. THANK YOU. YEAH. SO WE'RE GOING, MAY I, I PLEASE. YES. SORRY. UM, THIS CORRIDOR WAS CREATED QUITE SOME TIME AGO. THE CHANGE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WAS 2015. I ONCE AGAIN ASK THAT IF WE CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION, THE MINUTES OF THE COUNCIL MEETING, THE ZONING COMMISSION AND ALL BE BROUGHT FORWARD, THIS WAS NOT A LAST MINUTE THING. AND AS I RECALL, IT WAS VOTED UNANIMOUSLY EXCEPT FOR THE ONE PERSON WHO WAS ABSENT AT THE COUNCIL MEETING. SO IT'S NOT LIKE THIS WAS JUST A DISTRICT EIGHT, DISTRICT NINE HIGH INCOME PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR IT. WELL, I DI I DISAGREE. ONE AT ONE AT A, ONE AT A TIME. LARRY, I DISAGREE. UM, I AGREE WITH YOU. HAD THE INDUSTRY BEEN INCLUDED IN THIS CONVERSATION? WE WERE NOT, NOR WERE, WERE WE NOTIFIED WHEN THEY, WHEN THESE CHANGES WERE MADE, NO ONE SENT OUT A DRAFT TELLING US, UH, OH, NO MORE ELECTRONIC SIGNS IN THIS CORRIDOR. AND I'M SURE THE SAME THING HAPPENED WITH CITY STAFF. PERHAPS THEY WEREN'T INFORMED OF THESE CHANGES. UH, TWO OF THESE PERMITS WERE MINE AND I HAD NO EARTHLY IDEA THAT THIS CHANGE HAD BEEN MADE. SO, UM, THIS IS JUST WHAT HAPPENS WHEN OUR INDUSTRY IS [01:45:01] NOT INCLUDED IN CONVERSATIONS RELATING TO, UH, OUR INDUSTRY IN THIS CODE. WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, I'D RECALL, YOU KNOW, I'M PROBABLY THE OLDEST ONE IN THIS ROOM, BUT I GO WAY BACK AND I UNDERSTAND, AND I CONCUR WITH COLLEEN, THERE WAS A LOT OF DISCUSSION AND THERE WAS A LOT OF PARTICIPATION FROM A LOT OF ENTITIES. AND IF THE SIGN, Y'ALL ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN HERE AND YOU'RE WELL REPRESENTED, AND THERE WAS COMMENT, BUT I WILL SAY THAT, UH, TWO WRONGS IN THIS CASE, FOUR WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT. AND IF THE, IF THE STAFF HAS AIRED, THE STAFF HAS AIRED. NO PROCESS IS PERFECT. AND EACH ONE OF YOU AT THIS TABLE, I'M SURE CAN AGREE WITH THAT. AND WHILE I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT THE STAFF MADE MISTAKES, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THAT WE HAVE A CORRIDOR ON THE NORTH. WE HAVE FOUR OTHER CORRIDORS, AND IF YOU CHANGE ONE, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO LEAD INTO PERHAPS CHANGING THE OTHER FOURTH THERE, THERE FOR A REASON. IT DOES NOT SET PRECEDENT. AND I PRECEDENT AND I FOR ONE, WOULD NOT, UH, CONCUR WITH MOVING FORWARD WITH THIS. CHRISTIE, I JUST WANT TO, UH, TO THIS POINT AND BIANCA'S POINT THAT YOU WANT THE REPRESENTATION FOR YOUR, IN YOUR INTEREST. AND THAT IS WHAT LARRY'S ASKING FOR IS OUR INTEREST AS A SIGN INDUSTRY. IF THIS WAS SO WELL KNOWN AND SO DOCUMENTED, HOW COME NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON, LIDDELL, ESPECIALLY LARRY ESPECIALLY, KNEW THAT THIS WAS GOING ON. THE TEXAS SIGN ASSOCIATION IS VERY INVOLVED IN ALL OF THE GOVERNMENTAL PROCESSES. SO IF THIS WAS SUCH A MAJOR CHANGE BACK IN 2015, HOW COME NO ONE WAS KNOWN, TOLD ABOUT IT? THEY WOULD, WE, I GUARANTEE YOU WOULD'VE BEEN THERE TO STATE OUR POINT, UM, TO WHY THEY'RE NECESSARY. I DON'T DO THESE KIND OF SIGNS, SO THIS DOES NOT AFFECT MY BUSINESS. BUT I DO THINK IT IS LIKE FAIR, ESPECIALLY TO LARRY AND ALL OF THE OTHER COMMERCIAL CONTRACTORS THAT THEY WOULD'VE, THIS IS A PART OF THEIR BUSINESS. AND WE, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF A TASK FORCE. BECAUSE IF YOU'VE NOT SAT ON A TASK FORCE WITH DEVELOPMENT SERVICES, IT IS BALANCED. IT IS NOT JUST US. IT IS YOUR, IT IS INDUSTRY FOLKS TOO. YEAH. BUT IT IS OPERATORS OF IT, IT IS PEOPLE IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA. I DON'T THINK WE FULFILL THAT TODAY WITH THE, WITH THE INDIVIDUALS ON THIS REPRESENTATION AND ON A TASK FORCE, EVERYBODY'S VOTE COUNTS EQUALLY. THERE'S NOT A DISCOUNTED. YEAH. BUT, BUT I, BIANCA, I, SO THAT'S WHY I THINK BECAUSE IT'S VERY UNIQUE TO THAT AREA. I TAKE A LITTLE OFFENSE TO THAT AS THE CHAIRMAN. I HAVE, I HAVE DONE EVERYTHING THAT I HA HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO WITHIN WHAT THE CITY COUNCIL PASSED AS OUR, HOW THESE COMMITTEES ARE SET UP, WHICH WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH. I KNOW THIS IS NOT TOWARDS YOU, JUST THE PROCESS. I, I LET YOU SPEAK WITHOUT INTERRUPTING. IF YOU'LL PLEASE GIVE ME THE SAME COURTESY. I HAVE PERSONALLY REACHED OUT TWO OR THREE TIMES TO THE ALL 17 OR 18 PEOPLE THAT SHOWED UP TO THE FIRST MEETING THAT WANTED TO SIT INVITING THEM. I'VE ASKED STAFF TO SEND EMAILS OUT EVERY TIME WE HAVE A COMMITTEE MEETING TO EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE E EVERYBODY HAS BEEN, UH, ASKED TO COME TO THE TABLE AND SIT AT THE TABLE. WE'VE CHANGED THE MEETINGS SET UP ROOM TO ALLOW EVERYBODY TO BE HERE. WE HAVE NOT TAKEN ONE VOTE THAT HAS NOT BEEN 100% UNANIMOUS. AND, AND SO I WOULD JUST ASK THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU NOT BESMIRCH ME AS THE CHAIRMAN BY SAYING THE PROCESS HASN'T BEEN FAIR BECAUSE EVERYBODY WHO HAS COME TO THESE MEETINGS HAS BEEN ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE AS IF THEY, IT'S A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE. AND SO, YOU KNOW, I'D JUST LIKE TO END IT THERE. THIS ISSUE IS TABLED TILL, UH, LIDDELL GETS BACK TO THE NEXT MEETING. WE CAN HAVE THE DISCUSSION, YOU KNOW, WE CAN GET SOME MORE INFORMATION. SO IF YOU WANT MORE INFORMATION, PLEASE UH, LET JEREMY KNOW ON THIS. I DO, I DO AGREE THAT, YOU KNOW, HAVING, YOU KNOW, AN OPEN PROCESS IS GOOD, BUT I KNOW HOW THIS STUFF WORKS. HAVING BEEN DOING THIS FOR, YOU KNOW, 40 YEARS IS IT GOT TO THE ZONING COMMISSION, SOMEBODY ADDED SOMETHING, IT WENT FORWARD AND, YOU KNOW, THE MISSING STEP WAS, IS THAT AGAIN, WHEN THAT HAPPENED, WHATEVER STAKEHOLDER GROUP GOT AFFECTED BY IT NEEDED TO HAVE BEEN CONTACTED. AND WE'RE JUST, WE'RE GETTING BETTER AT IT AS WE GO THROUGH IT. AND, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHY EVERYBODY'S BEEN INVITED TO PARTICIPATE. WE WILL, YOU KNOW, MAKE OUR RECOMMENDATIONS, YOU KNOW, ON THE NEXT REVIEW PROCESS. [01:50:01] I'VE ALREADY HAD SOME CONVERSATIONS WITH STAFF ABOUT TAKING THIS GROUP AND EXPANDING IT DIFFERENTLY THE NEXT TIME OUT. BUT UNFORTUNATELY, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A MANDATE BY COUNCIL THAT THIS WAS HOW IT WAS TO BE SET UP, HOW MANY PEOPLE YOU CAN HAVE ON IT. AND, AND WITHIN THOSE FRAMEWORK, I HAVE TRIED TO EXPAND IT TO MAKE EVERYBODY FEEL INCLUSIVE. SO JEREMY, CAN WE GO TO THE NEXT ITEM PLEASE? CAN I ASK A QUESTION OF STONE? YES. AND COLLEEN'S, UH, REQUEST WAS TO HAVE MINUTES. YEAH. ARE, ARE THERE SIGN IN SHEETS THAT ARE SAVED FROM THOSE MEETINGS TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THE SIGN INDUSTRY WAS REPRESENTED? BECAUSE I'VE SLEPT A WHOLE LOT SINCE THEN. BUT I THINK I DO RECALL THAT THERE WAS COMMENT FROM THE SIGN INDUSTRY. WE'LL, UM, AND, AND, AND COLLEEN, YOU DID ASK, SO I APOLOGIZE WE DIDN'T BRING THAT TO THIS MEETING, BUT, UM, WE WILL GET YOU ALL THE DOCUMENTATION WE HAVE LEADING UP TO, UH, ANY MEETINGS BEFORE THE ZONING COMMISSION, UH, INCLUDING ANY THE AVAILABLE MINUTES? UH, I HAVE ACTUALLY WATCHED THE VIDEO OF THE COUNCIL MEETING WHEN IT WAS ADOPTED. UH, THE SIGNED PORTION WASN'T PART OF ANY PRESENTATION OR QUESTIONS, BUT WE CAN GET ALL THAT INFORMATION FOR EVERYBODY. UM, ANYTHING WE HAVE THAT SOUND FAIR? AND CAN YOU ALSO GET THE, SORRY, CAN YOU GET THE LINK AND SEND IT OUT TO EVERYBODY OF THE COUNCIL MEETING WHERE THEY ADOPTED IT SO THAT WE CAN HEAR THE PUBLIC COMMENT ALSO? YES, WE HAVE THAT AND I, I DON'T THINK THAT ZONING COMMISSIONS WEREN'T VIDEOTAPED AT THAT TIME, BUT THEY'RE TODAY, SO THERE WON'T BE A VIDEO LINK OR ANYTHING, BUT WE HAVE THE MINUTES, UM, THAT SHOW, UM, THAT THE MODIFICATION TO ADD THE RESTRICTION WAS ADDED. SO WE'LL, WE'LL GET YOU ALL THAT. THANK YOU. UH, BEFORE THE NEXT MEETING. UH, SO YOU CAN REVIEW IT AT YOUR 4TH OF JULY LEISURE. MAYBE I WON'T GET IT TO YOU THIS WEEKEND. CAN WE ALSO HAVE, I UNDERSTAND YOU SAID THERE WAS PUBLIC COMMENT FOR THIS ITEM AND WE DID HAVE A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF DISCUSSION, BUT NO ACTION. CAN WE RECEIVE A COPY OF THAT PUBLIC COMMENT FOR THIS AGENDA ITEM TODAY? YEAH, IT WAS COUNCILWOMAN CONNOR SENT SOMETHING IN. WHY DON'T YOU JUST EMAIL IT AND COULD YOU EMAIL IT OUT TO US? WE'RE GONNA READ IT INTO THE RECORD WHEN WE HAVE THE ACTUAL DISCUSSION LIKE WE'VE BEEN DOING WITH EVERYTHING ELSE. THANK YOU, JEREMY. NEXT ITEM. THANK YOU, CHAIR. UH, THIS IS CHAPTER 28 AND, UH, AGENDA ITEM NUMBER SEVEN, CHAPTER 28, AMENDMENT ITEM ONE DASH THREE, EXTERNAL REQUEST TO ADOPT A CLEAR AND OFF-PREMISES SIGN, MAINTENANCE LANGUAGE AND PERMITTING PROCESS. THIS IS, UH, CHANGE TO SECTION 28 DASH 52, SUBSECTION SIX. SO WHERE WE'RE AT IS SIGN SPECIFICATIONS AND MAINTENANCE. THIS KIND OF, OF OVERSEES ALL SIGNAGE OUT THERE. UH, GENERAL REQUIREMENT, THIS IS THE PAINTING . UM, AND SO I, I KNOW WE HAVE TIM HERE THAT WORKS WITH CLEAR CHANNEL, BUT WE DON'T HAVE, UH, CLEAR CHANNEL PROVIDED THIS ONE. I'LL TELL YOU WHAT, LET'S TAKE A FIVE MINUTE BREAK. TEN FOUR. OKAY, THE MEETING IS BACK IN ORDER. JEREMY, NEXT ITEM PLEASE. ITEM NUMBER SEVEN AND JEREMY ON THE SPREADSHEET. WHAT ITEM NUMBER SEVEN IS WHAT NUMBER? ONE DASH THREE. I'LL PULL THAT UP REAL QUICK JUST SO EVERYBODY CAN SEE THAT. SO CHAPTER 28 AMENDMENT ITEM ONE DASH THREE, EXTERNAL REQUEST TO ADOPT A CLEAR OFF-PREMISE SIGNED MAINTENANCE LANGUAGE AND PERMITTING PROCESS. SECTION 28 DASH 5 26. UH, BROUGHT IN BY A CLEAR CHANNEL. SO THE SECTION WE'RE LOOKING AT, THIS IS THIS OVERSEAS KIND OF GENERAL SIGN REQUIREMENTS, SIGN SPECIFICATIONS AND MAINTENANCE. UNDER THAT SECTION WE'RE LOOKING AT CONSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE REQUIREMENTS. UH, SO THEIR PROPOSAL IS REALLY KIND OF A RESTRUCTURING OF THAT. SO WHAT YOU SEE HERE IS THE ORIGINAL THAT'S BEEN STRUCK THROUGH WITH THEIR PROPOSED LANGUAGE, UH, BEING BROUGHT HERE, WHICH IS MOSTLY BROUGHT FROM TXDOT. SO A LOT OF THIS BASIS COMES FROM, UH, TDOT THAT THAT WAS, UH, PROVIDED TO US ORIGINALLY AS, AS VERBATIM TO TXDOT. THEY'VE, UH, SINCE THEN PROVIDED SOME MORE CLEARED UP LANGUAGE. BUT WHAT I'M GONNA DO IS I'M GONNA TURN IT OVER TO TIM, UH, REPRESENTING CLEAR CHANNEL HERE. BEFORE YOU START, CAN YOU JUST, UH, GIVE US A CHANCE TO READ WHAT THAT IS? THANK [01:55:21] AND ONCE I GET A LITTLE BIT OF CONSENSUS, I'M HAPPY TO MOVE IT DOWN 'CAUSE IT, THERE'S SIGNIFICANT UNDER THIS AS WELL. IS EVERYBODY GOOD THROUGH NUMBER EIGHT? YES. OKAY. CAN YOU MOVE IT UP? THANKS. OKAY. SO I THINK THE LIST IS PRETTY, PRETTY SELF-EXPLANATORY. THE QUESTION I HAVE, IF YOU'LL GO BACK, UH, OH, DOWN A LITTLE BIT WHERE IT SAYS YOU BASICALLY CAN REPLACE THE HOLES SIGN STRUCTURE, AND AS LONG AS IT'S THE SAME MATERIAL, TO ME THAT'S A LITTLE MORE THAN JUST MAINTENANCE. SO COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS ON THAT IS? SURE. AND, AND JUST TO TO RECAP UH, A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT LOUIS DELATORRE TOLD THE COMMITTEE A FEW MEETINGS AGO. THE GENESIS OF THIS PARTICULAR LIST IS FROM THE F H W A IN OH NINE, I BELIEVE IT'S 13 DIFFERENT D O T, RIGHT OF WAY DIRECTORS MET TO TRY TO COME UP WITH A UNIFORM METHODOLOGY TO DETERMINE WHAT WOULD BE MAINTENANCE THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED NORMAL, WHAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED UNUSUAL AND WHAT WOULD NEED TO BE TO GET A PERMIT IN ORDER TO DO THAT KIND OF MAINTENANCE. THIS IS WHAT THAT COMMITTEE CAME OUT WITH OH NINE AND IT WAS ADOPTED ALMOST VERBATIM BY TXDOT 10 YEARS AGO OR SO. THE REASON THAT THAT CLEAR CHANNEL IS OFFERING THIS IS THAT THE CURRENT SIGN CODE MERELY SAYS THAT FOR ANY MAINTENANCE YOU MUST RECEIVE A PERMIT FROM THE CITY, ANY MAINTENANCE, WELL, THAT OBVIOUSLY DOES NOT FREE UP PERSONNEL FOR ENFORCEMENT ISSUES. AND AS SUCH, WHAT WE'D BE ABLE TO DO, WE THINK IS NOT ONLY GIVE CERTAINTY TO WHAT WE CAN AND CANNOT DO IN A SITUATION AS WELL AS FREEING UP, UH, DEVELOPMENT SERVICES STAFF FOR OTHER ENDEAVORS. TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, SPECIFICALLY THE REPLACEMENT OF, UM, MINOR PARTS, ET CETERA, CHANGING TO THE SIGN STRUCTURES ONLY IF IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME CONFIGURATION AND ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME MATERIALS. 'CAUSE BASICALLY THESE THINGS ARE MADE OUT OF STEEL, THEY RUST, THEY DETERIORATE. SO THE POINT OF THAT PARTICULAR ONE IS SAYING THAT THERE IS THE AND STRUCTURE. WE GENERALLY ARE TALKING ABOUT THE TOP, THE FA THE HEAD OF IT. AND WHAT WE WOULD BE ABLE TO DO IS IF THERE WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS FA STARTING TO FAIL ENGINEERING WISE, WE COULD JUST GO IN AND PUT SOMETHING SIMILAR TO IT. STEEL FOR STEEL, WOOD FOR WOOD, WE CAN'T CHANGE IT. WE CAN'T MAKE WOOD STEEL. BUT IF WE'RE USING THE SAME OR SIMILAR PART, JUST BECAUSE MANY OF THESE SIGNS ARE 20, 30, 40 YEARS OLD, THE EXACT SAME MATERIALS MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE. LITERALLY THEY DON'T MAKE SIGNS THE SAME WAY IN 2022 THAT THEY DID BACK IN 1985. THEY USE DIFFERENT MATERIALS, DIFFERENT TYPES OF STEEL. SO TO TO TO SAY EXACT IS NOT PRACTICAL. THAT'S WHY THOSE PARTICULAR WORDS ARE USED. YEAH, I WAS TALKED TALKING MORE ABOUT NUMBER SEVEN. YES, I HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT SEVEN WOULD ALLOW YOU TO COMPLETELY TEAR DOWN THE SIGN AND REBUILD IT EXACTLY LIKE IT WAS BRAND NEW, THAT THAT WOULD ACTUALLY BE CUT OFF IN THE CURRENT BY THE CURRENT CODE OF, WE COULD ONLY DO 50% OF THE VALUE OF THE SIGN. IN THAT CASE, THE CURRENT CODE HAS A 50 50 RULE THAT SAYS IF YOU'RE GONNA CHANGE OUT MORE THAN 50% OF THE VALUE OF A NEW SIGN, YOU CANNOT DO IT. THAT'S CONSIDERED ABANDONED, DESTROYED, WHATEVER THE TERM IS. SO THAT ONE IS ACTUALLY WORKING IN CONJUNCTION. TDO HAS THE SAME THING. [02:00:01] THEY HAVE A TDO HAS A 60% RULE. SO THAT'S, THAT WOULD HAVE WORK IN UNISON WITH THE, UH, 50% RULE THAT THE CITY CURRENTLY HAS. BUT YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO DO 50% AT ONE TIME. WAIT SIX MONTHS, THAT WOULD BE CORRECT. ANOTHER 50% THAT'D BE CORRECT. OKAY. QUESTION COLLEEN. UM, I KNOW THERE'S A PROVISION SUCH THAT IF A, A SIGN WAS PERMITTED AT A CERTAIN HEIGHT AND LATER THE CODE CHANGED, SO TO ONLY ALLOW SHORTER SIGNS, AND OF COURSE THOSE SIGNS WERE GRANDFATHERED, BUT IF A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MAINTENANCE WAS DONE, UM, THAT HAT SIGN HAD TO COME DOWN TO THE CURRENT CODE HEIGHT, HOW WOULD THAT THIS AFFECT THAT? MY UNDERSTANDING, THE WAY I READ IT, IT WOULD BE THE SAME SITUATION. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE 50% RULE. SO IF YOU HIT, IF YOU HIT THAT AND THAT THAT INFORMATION HAS TO BE PROVIDED TO THE CITY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE, WE, WE CAN'T HAUL OUT A GREAT BIG CRANE AND START TAKING THINGS DOWN WITHOUT SOMEBODY NOTICING THAT'S STUPID . SO THAT WOULD BE PROVIDED AND WE WOULD HAVE TO PROVIDE THE CITY WITH THAT KIND OF INFORMATION. IT'S REALLY MORE INTENDED FOR, UH, FOR EXAMPLE, ON A TWO PHASE SIGN, ONE OF THE FACES CAN START TO DETERIORATE AND MAYBE NEEDS A SUBSTANTIAL REFIT OF THE, OF THE, UH, OF THE, UH, PARTICULAR MATERIALS. THAT'S NOT GONNA GET CLOSE TO 50%. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE NEED IT FOR NOT ONLY TO KEEP THE ASSET, UH, UH, USABLE, BUT ALSO KEEP THE ASSET SAFE. YOU KNOW, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT VERY LARGE STRUCTURES AND THAT'S LAST THING WE WANT IS ANYTHING BAD TO HAPPEN. SO THAT'S, THAT'S WHY THAT'S WRITTEN THAT, AND AGAIN, I'M SPEAKING FROM MY UNDERSTANDING, I WAS NOT PART OF THE PEOPLE WHO WROTE IT. UH, I WAS NOT ON THAT COMMITTEE WHO WROTE THAT. SO I HAVE A QUESTION FOR STAFF MAINTENANCE REQUIRES PERMIT OR NOT? NO, IT DOES NOT. OKAY. SO WHAT I WOULD AS CHAIR DIRECT THE STAFF TO DO IS I WOULD TAKE WHAT T O HAS DONE AND I WOULD SPLIT THE LIST INTO TWO SECTIONS. ONE IS STUFF THAT YOU ARE COMFORTABLE, UH, TO BE DONE NON PERMITTED. SO I THINK WHEN YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, REPLACING NUTS AND BOLTS AND DOING MINOR REPAIRS, YOU KNOW, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT DEFINITELY DOES NOT REQUIRE PAINTING. THE SIGN DOESN'T NEED A PERMIT. YOU KNOW, STUFF THAT'S ROUTINE THAT HAPPENS, YOU KNOW, REGULARLY AND ALL THE TIME, YOU KNOW, BE PUT INTO MAINTENANCE REQUIRING NO PERMIT. AND THEN TO SPLIT THE OTHER HALF OF THE LIST TO SAY MAINTENANCE THAT REQUIRES A PERMIT. BECAUSE I THINK, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY IF YOU CAN CHANGE OUT THE WHOLE SIGN WITHOUT GETTING A PERMIT UNDER THE MAINTENANCE SECTION, THE CITY MAY NEVER KNOW THAT THAT'S GOING ON. SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, STUFF LIKE, UH, ALLOWING, UH, UH, ELECTRICITY TO BE REPLACED OUT. WELL, IF YOU'RE REPLACING OUT THE ELECTRICITY ON A SIGN, IT REQUIRES AN ELECTRICAL PERMIT TO DO THAT SO THAT THERE'S NO MISUNDERSTANDING AS TO WHAT IN THE MAINTENANCE CATEGORY CAN BE DONE, NO PERMIT AND WHAT REQUIRES A PERMIT. AND THEN IF YOU'LL SPLIT THAT LIST UP THAT WAY AND EMAIL IT OUT TO EVERYBODY AT THE NEXT MEETING, WE CAN COME IN AND SAY, OKAY, WE'RE TAKING THIS OUT, OR WE'RE ADDING THIS, OR DOING WHATEVER BASED UPON THERE. AND THEN IF THERE IS A 50% RULE THAT TRIGGERS THE SIGN AT THAT POINT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN DOWN, I THINK THAT 50% NEEDS TO BE PUT INTO THE MAINTENANCE SECTION. THAT THAT MAKES IT CLEAR WHAT THAT IS. SO A A QUESTION FOR STAFF REAL QUICK. SO YOU SAID MAINTENANCE DOES NOT REQUIRE A PERMIT. SO I'M, I'M READING 28 9 OR 28, 28 9, UM, ONLY REGISTERED CONTRACTOR, CITY LICENSE CONTRACTORS AUTHORIZED TO OBTAIN SIGNED PERMITS FOR THE INSTALLATION ERECTION AND ALTERATION OF THE SIGN WORK CONCLUDES ERECTION, PAINTING, SERVICING, REFACING, MAINTAINING OR DEMOLISHING. SO AM I READING THAT WRONG OR WHERE DOES IT, WHERE DOES IT ACCEPT INSPECTOR? A A POINT OF CORRECTION IS WHEN I'M READING THIS ITEM IN A NUMBER ONE THROUGH NUMBER FIVE, THOSE ARE TYPICAL MAINTENANCE WHERE YOU DO STRUCTURAL CHANGES SUCH AS THE HEAD OR OR POLE. THEN THOSE, WE HAVE A MAINTENANCE PERMIT FOR THOSE. AND CURRENTLY WE DO REQUIRE PERMITS FOR THAT TYPE OF WORK. [02:05:01] RIGHT? BUT IF WE CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF WHAT MAINTENANCE IS BY ADDING ALL THIS IN, THEN ALL THIS WOULD BE CONSIDERED MAINTENANCE AND THEN WOULDN'T REQUIRE A PERMIT. SO, SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS TO SPLIT THE LIST UP AS TO THESE ITEMS ARE MAINTENANCE AND THIS IS WHAT YOU CAN DO. AND THESE REQUIRE A PERMIT SO THAT IT'S CLEAR WHAT EVERYTHING IS AND WHAT'S ALLOWED AND WHAT'S NOT ALLOWED AND WHAT TRIGGERS THE SIGN HAS HAS TO COME DOWN BECAUSE IT'S 100% NO GOOD ANYMORE. MR. JILL LEWIS WANTED TO CLARIFY THIS LIST US PER TEXDOT, THAT'S TDOT'S, UH, CURRENT ADMINISTRATIVE RULE. AND SO, SO THIS IS T TDOT'S RULE. YOU KNOW, IF THE CITY STEPS IN TO TAKE OVER TDOT'S PLACE, THEY HAVE TO HAVE SIMILAR RULES. OURS CAN BE MORE STRINGENT, BUT I THINK WE JUST NEED TO CLARIFY THAT OF THIS LIST. WHAT IS OKAY WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING, NOTIFYING ANYBODY AND WHAT YOU HAVE TO GO PULL A PERMIT FOR, AND THEN TO MAKE SURE THAT WE WORDSMITH THIS WITHIN THE WHATEVER RULES, OTHER RULES THAT ARE WITHIN THE CHAPTER 28 OR THE BILLBOARD ORDINANCE OR WHATEVER ELSE GOT ADOPTED, UH, TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S CONSISTENT. BIANCA, I WAS GONNA SAY, I ALSO HAD CONCERN ABOUT NUMBER TWO SPECIFICALLY THE WELDING ELEMENT. UM, BECAUSE HOW ARE YOU GONNA WELD IF YOU NEED TO WELD UP IN THE AIR? I THINK OF SPARKS, I THINK OF HOW DRY WE HAVE BEEN. YOU KNOW, YOU JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S, UM, WHEN YOU'RE WELDING ALSO YOU, YOU CAN CHANGE THE METALLURGY PROPERTIES OF THE METAL AND YOU DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S A STRUCTURAL SUPPORTING ELEMENT. SO I WOULD THINK YOU WOULD WANT THAT REVIEWED. I MEAN, I'M LOOKING AT WELDING ON THE ENTIRE STRUCTURE. MAYBE YOU'RE FOCUSING ON A CERTAIN ELEMENT, BUT I THINK WELDING IS JUST A, IT'S JUST A SEVERE ELEMENT TO BE DOING. YEAH, BUT THE TYPICALLY UP IN THE AIR HAULING WHATEVER IT IS, YOU'RE, HOWEVER, YOU'RE WELDING A PORTABLE WELDER OR YOU GOT A FULL TANK, HOW MUCH ARE YOU WELDING? UM, THAT'S, THAT'S . YEAH. I MEAN THE SPARK PROBLEM IS USUALLY NOT GONNA EVER BE AN ISSUE, ESPECIALLY THE HIGHER UP YOU GO. 'CAUSE BY THE TIME THE SPARK SITS IN THE AIR, IT GOES AWAY. YEAH. I MEAN, WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS YOU WOULD BE, IF SOMETHING LET'S SAY BECAME DETERIORATED, THEY MO MAY PUT A COLLAR AROUND A PIECE OF PIPE TO A BRACE. IT, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW THAT THE CITY NEEDS TO BE, UH, MADE AWARE OF THAT TO PULL A PERMIT. 'CAUSE NO INSPECTOR IS GONNA GO 50 FEET UP IN THE AIR IN THE CRANE TO GO DO THAT. SO WE'RE NOT LOOKING AT IT ANYWAY. BUT, BUT MAYBE IT SHOULDN'T BE JUST ALL WELDING THEN ESSENTIALLY, BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY IT READS. RIGHT. BUT I, BUT I THINK THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING THEY CURRENTLY IS THE CURRENT PRACTICE THAT IS, WOULD NOT BE PERMITTED. CAN YOU SCROLL DOWN PLEASE? YES. THE BOX. YES. YES. UH, MIKE POOLE MEDIA DISPLAYS, WE SERVICE, UH, CLEAR CHANNEL, OUT FRONT INDEPENDENCE. UH, THE SIGNS WE DO THE WELDING UP TOP. THERE ARE, UM, SITUATIONS WHERE WELDS, UH, WHETHER IT'S THE, THE WELD AROUND THE HEAD PLATE THAT NEED TO, THAT, THAT RUSTS. SO WE CLEAN THAT, UH, AND RE WELD THE AREAS THAT, UH, THAT HAVE SOME WEAK WELDS. WE TYPICALLY DO THAT A LOT AND IN THE AIR, AND IT'S OUR INSURANCE. IT'S, UM, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S UP TO US TO MAKE SURE THAT THINGS ARE CLEAR BELOW THE SIGN, BELOW THE BILLBOARD BEFORE WE DO THAT. SO WE HAVE CERTIFIED WELDERS TO DO THAT. WE'RE IN THE AIR. IT'S A VERY DANGEROUS PROFESSION, BUT WE DO IT AND WE'RE GLAD TO DO IT. UM, SO AS FAR AS THE WELDING'S CONCERNED, WE DON'T, WE, THE MAIN THING FOR US TO DO, WE GET AN ENGINEERING, UH, USUALLY OKAY ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN TO THAT, UH, PARTICULAR SIGN. AND ONCE WE GET THAT, WE HAVE CERTIFIED WELDERS THAT, UH, THAT UH, CLEAN THE WELDS AND, AND REINFORCE THOSE WELDS. SO, UM, IT'S MORE OF A SAFETY THING. UH, AND LIKE TIM ALLUDED TO, SOME OF THESE SIGNS WERE BUILT IN THE SIXTIES, 19 SIX, Y'ALL, Y'ALL ARE NOT GETTING PERMITS FOR THAT WORK. NOW THAT'S, UH, WELL, UH, IF, IF IT IS, IF IT DOES REQUIRE PERMIT CLEAR CHANNEL OR OUT FRONT OR THE INDEPENDENT, UH, PERMIT, WE'LL PULL THE RESPONSIBLE FOR PROCURING THOSE PERMITS. BUT WE'RE, WE JUST GO, WE'RE INSTRUCTED AND WE HAVE A, UH, WORK ORDER [02:10:01] TO, UH, TO, TO FIX IT, TO DO THE WORK. SO IF, IF THE WELD WAS FAILING AND THEY REPAIRED A WELL, WOULD THAT REQUIRE A PERMIT TODAY? OR WOULD YOU EVEN KNOW THAT THAT'S GOING ON? IF SOMEBODY NEEDED TO REPAIR A WELD TODAY, WOULD THEY PULL A PERMIT FOR THAT? NO, SIR. IF IT'S JUST A, A, A BROKEN PIECE AND THEY JUST COME BACK AND WE'LL RE WELD IT, NO. YES, FOR THOSE OF US OUTSIDE THE INDUSTRY, IT'S NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE TO KNOW HOW ONEROUS OF RESTRICTION IS. CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHAT THE PERMIT PROCESS IS, WHAT IT COSTS AND ALL FOR A BASIC MAINTENANCE PERMIT, SUCH AS CHANGING OUTTA THE HEAD, THE COST IS A HUNDRED DOLLARS PLUS A SERVICE CHARGE, $6. AND PART OF THE PROCESS IS WE REQUIRE AN ENGINEER'S DRAWING, ENGINEERS SEAL THAT WHAT THEY'RE DOING, IT'LL BE COMPLIANT WITH THE CURRENT CODE, THE 2018, UH, I B C. SO THE, THE ANSWER IS, IS THE PROCESS IS NOT WHEN, WHEN THEY'RE GOING TO DO A MAJOR, WHAT I CALL RENOVATION TO THE SIGN, IT'S NO BIG DEAL BECAUSE CLEAR CHANNEL, WHOEVER IS HAVING SOME ENGINEER DRAW WHAT NEEDS TO BE HAPPEN. THEY PUT THEIR SEAL, THEY PAY A HUNDRED BUCKS, SEND IT TO THE CITY, THE CITY OKAYS IT, THE GUYS GO UP IN THE AIR. AND LET'S SAY THEY REPLACE, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE SLATS OR WHATEVER THE FRAME, YOU KNOW, AND IT, THE PERMIT, MY GUESS IS IT'S CLOSED OUT WITHOUT AN INSPECTOR EVER GETTING ON A CRANE TO GO UP 150 FEET IN THE AIR TO GO LOOK AT IT. UH, SO IT IT BECOMES MORE OF AN ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS OF, OF NOTIFYING THE CITY THAT THE WORK IS GOING TO BE DONE, THAT IT'S, YOU KNOW, GOING TO BE DONE UNDER THE DIRECTION OF SOME ENGINEER THAT SAID THIS IS OKAY AND THE SIGN'S NOT GONNA FALL OVER ON SOMEONE. AND THEN THE OTHER PART OF THE PROCESS IS IT ALLOWS THE CITY TO REVIEW HOW MUCH PERCENTAGE THEY'RE DOING BECAUSE IF IT'S OVER A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE, BASICALLY AT THAT POINT, THE, THE SIGN'S CONDEMNED AND HAS TO COME DOWN. CORRECT. IN ESSENCE, YES. I I I'M NOT QUIBBLING WITH THE CITY, BUT THE CODE DOES NOT ENUMERATE WHAT IS YOU, WHAT WE'RE CALLING ROUTINE MAINTENANCE. THE CODE SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT IF YOU CONDUCT MAINTENANCE, YOU MUST GET A PERMIT. NOW I THINK THAT THIS, THE, THE STAFF HAS BEEN VERY ACCOMMODATING UNDERSTANDING THAT MOST OF THE THINGS UP THERE IN THAT FIRST GROUP DO NOT NEED A PERMIT, BUT TECHNICALLY THEY DO. SO WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS JUST ENUMERATE THAT AND GET THAT ON PAPER TO BE SURE EVERYBODY'S, AS THEY SAY, SINGING OUT THE SAME HYMNAL. . YEAH. SO WHAT, WHAT MY SUGGESTION IS, AND THEY'RE GONNA BRING IT BACK NEXT WEEK, IS TO HAVE A CATEGORY A, A CATEGORY B, THAT THESE THINGS CAN BE DONE WITHOUT A PERMIT. MARK DOESN'T SAY EIGHT A GOES THROUGH ONE THROUGH SEVEN AND THEN IT NO, NO, NO. I KNOW, BUT THERE'S SOME STUFF IN ONE THROUGH SEVEN THAT I WOULD, THAT WOULD REQUIRE A PERMIT. SO MARK, THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO GET SOME CLARIFICATION ON THE REQUEST. SO STAFF SEES THIS AS ONE THROUGH EIGHT PER THE RECOMMENDATION OR THE REQUEST FROM CLEAR CHANNEL IS SPECIFICALLY DOES NOT REQUIRE PERMIT. DOES THAT, YEAH. AND I DO YOU US TO CLARIFY WHAT STAFF AGREES WITH AND DOESN'T AGREE WITH? OR DO YOU WANT TO, YOU'RE JUST BROKEN DOWN BY THIS REQUIREMENT, CORRECT? I, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY ON THE COMMITTEE AGREES THAT THEY CAN TAKE THE WHOLE SIGN DOWN, PUT THE WHOLE SIGN UP WITHOUT, I DON'T THINK THIS IS WHAT THAT SAYS. IT SAYS GO DOWN TO, SORRY, HIS NUMBER SEVEN AND EIGHT TAKE THE WHOLE SIGN DOWN IN NUMBER SEVEN AND EIGHT. IT SAYS THEY CAN, THEY CAN, OR SEVEN, THEY CAN CHANGE ALL OR PART OF THE STRUCTURE, BUT ONLY LIKE, LIKE KIND MATERIAL. SO IF THAT IS CONSIDERED ROUTINE MAINTENANCE, THAT WOULD NOT NECESSARILY REQUIRE THE PERMIT. SO WHAT I'M SUGGESTING IS, IS THAT RATHER THAN ENUMERATING, WHAT IS ROUTINE MAINTENANCE AND COMING UP WITH THAT DEFINITION IS TO ENUMERATE WHAT WORK CAN BE DONE WITHOUT ANY PERMIT BEING REQUIRED. SO THAT WOULD BE BASICALLY THINGS LIKE 1, 2, 3, 4, AND FIVE. SO YOU WANT MORE DETAIL IN SEVEN, IT SOUNDS LIKE. 'CAUSE THIS IS THE TECH DOT, THIS IS THE TECH DOT RULE. THE 50 50 RULE ALREADY APPLIES SO THAT THERE'S [02:15:01] ALREADY A LIMIT TO WHAT THEY CAN AND CAN'T DO. SO IT SOUNDS LIKE WHAT YOU'RE ASKING AND, AND MAYBE I'D, I'D LIKE TO MAYBE WE CAN HEAR FROM JEREMY AND, AND THE CHIEF INSPECTOR ABOUT, AND YOU KNOW, PUT YOU ON THE SPOT AND YOU KNOW, BUT, OR MAYBE YOU JUST NEED TO LOOK AT THIS AND COME BACK. I ASSUME YOU'VE ALREADY HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK AT IT 'CAUSE IT'S IN THE PRESENTATION. BUT WHAT YOUR OPINION IS OF, OF THAT? 'CAUSE I, I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY WANNA, I MEAN IF YOU'RE OKAY WITH THAT AND IF WE ALREADY DO UNDERSTAND THE CORRECT AND, AND IT'S A CORRECT INTERPRETATION THAT THE 50 FOOT 50 RULE APPLIES, UM, 'CAUSE EVERYTHING ELSE ON THAT LIST TO ME IS, MAKES A GOOD DEAL OF SENSE. I MEAN, TO YOUR BIANCA, TO YOUR POINT ABOUT THE WELDING, WHETHER OR NOT YOU PULL A PERMIT FOR THE WELDING, THE SPARKS ARE GONNA BE THERE. IT'S NOT LIKE THE INSPECTOR'S GONNA BE STANDING THERE WATCHING, YOU KNOW. SO THAT IS MAY OR MAY, YOU MAY OR MAY NOT BE MOOT. UM, I MEAN I AGREE IT'S A DANGEROUS THING, BUT LIKE YOU SAID, THEY, THAT THEY, THEY HAVE, THEY HAVE PLENTY OF INCENTIVE TO, TO DO THAT THE RIGHT WAY. FINANCIALLY INCENTIVE. BUT ANYWAY, UM, WHAT IS THE CITY HAVE AN OPINION ON ON THIS? I MEAN, UH, I THINK AT THIS TIME WE PROBABLY WANT SOME TIME TO PRESENT AND I, I, I THINK WHAT I'M GONNA TAKE IS KIND OF MARK'S SUGGESTION AND WORK WITH CLEAR CHANNEL A LITTLE BIT AS WELL AND, AND MAYBE FINE TUNE WHAT CLEAR CHANNEL'S ASKING FOR WHAT STAFF IS COMFORTABLE WITH. IDEALLY WE CAN COME UP WITH A CONSENSUS AND PRESENT A UNIFIED FRONT TO THE COMMITTEE OF LIKE, HEY, INDUSTRY AND, AND STAFF ARE GOOD WITH THIS. IF COMMITTEE'S GOOD WITH IT, THEN ALL THREE PARTIES INVOLVED ARE GOOD. UM, SO I THINK AT THIS POINT I THINK WE CAN TAKE THAT WORK WITH YOUR CLEAR CHANNEL AND COME BACK TO THE COMMITTEE WITH A RECOMMENDATION. MR. CHAIR? OH YES. UH, SORRY. LOUD. I DON'T NEED THIS THING. UM, WHAT IS CONSIDERED, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT IS CONSIDERED MINOR PARTS. I'M, I'M OKAY WITH ONE THROUGH FIVE. I'D LIKE A DEFINITION OF WHAT IS CONSIDERED MINOR PARTS. UM, AND THEN ON SEVEN I THINK THAT THAT IS A REPAIR AND NOT MAINTENANCE. AND NUMBER EIGHT I BELIEVE IS CHANGING IS A CHANGE. AND THOSE WOULD NEED TO GO DOWN UNDER B. YEAH, I I MEAN I AM SUGGESTING THAT Y'ALL WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO GET A PERMIT FOR, CORRECT? CORRECT. AND I'M ASSUMING Y'ALL AGREE THAT MOST OF WHAT CURRENTLY THE PRACTICE IS, IS ONE THROUGH FIVE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO GET A PERMIT NOW. CORRECT. AND YOU WOULD LIKE THAT? I WOULD INCLUDE SIX TOO. UH, MINOR PARTS YOU YEAH, NO ONE THROUGH SIX DEFINE THE UNIVERSE. YEAH. ONE , ONE THROUGH. AND IN OTHER WORDS, ONCE YOU START ON A MAJOR REPAIR TO THE STRUCTURE, YOU CHANGE THE ELECTRICITY, YOU KNOW, WIRING OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Y'ALL ARE GETTING A PERMIT NOW, CORRECT? YES. AND SO WHAT I AM SUGGESTING RATHER THAN TRYING TO DEFINE BY TWO CATEGORIES IS TO DEFINE WHAT REQUIRES A PERMIT AND WHAT DOESN'T LEAVING, WHETHER IT'S REPAIR OR MAINTENANCE OR WHATEVER, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THAT REQUIRES A WHOLE LOT BIGGER DEFINITION. AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT Y'ALL ARE LOOKING FOR. AND I THINK IT WOULD BE EASIER ON EVERYBODY, INCLUDING US AS CITIZENS WHO HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT THIS TO SAY, OKAY, YOU CAN DO ONE THROUGH SIX, YOU KNOW, AND TO GET STAFF TO LOOK AT THE LIST AND SAY, OKAY, THIS STUFF REQUIRES A PERMIT. THIS STUFF DOESN'T MAKE IT EASY. USING THE TECH DOT LIST IS THE STARTING PLACE. AND IF THERE'S STUFF YOU WANNA ADD OR SUBTRACT, IF YOU WILL JUST, YOU KNOW, KIND OF HIGHLIGHT THAT OFF THE LIST. SO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT LIKE A BRACKET OR ON A MINOR PART? SOMETHING THAT, YES. SO I CAN GO UP THERE AND RIGHT, RIGHT. I HAVE TO TALK MY HANDS AND CAN, CAN, AND YOU DEFINED IT JUST AS WELL AS WE CAN. 'CAUSE THERE'S NO WAY I CAN WRITE A DEFINITION FOR THAT. D DOESN'T SAY SOMETHING LIKE, AND INCLUDING OTHER SIMILAR ITEMS. YEAH. OR UNDERSTAND. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. . I'M JUST TRYING TO GET THAT CONCEPT SINCE I DON'T BUILD THESE, I JUST LOOK AT 'EM. SO WOULD YOU LIKE THAT? IN OTHER WORDS, DON'T YOU? YOU DO. YEAH, BUT SO I, I'M JUST THINKING IT'S SOMETHING TINY, LIKE LESS THAN FOUR, FOUR FEET OR SOMETHING. WELL, IT MAY, NO, NO, BUT IT MAY NOT BE TINY. I I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE ON SOME OF THE SIGNS, THEY HAVE SLATS THAT GO ACROSS THAT THE THING. SO IF TWO OF THE SLATS NEEDS TO BE REPLACED, IT'S REPAIRED, THEY DON'T NEED A PERMIT. IF THEY'RE GONNA REPLACE THE WHOLE SIDE OF THE SIGN, THEN YOU NEED TO GET A PERMIT. SO, SO YES. SO PATTY, THAT'S, THOSE ARE GOOD QUESTIONS. YOU KNOW, WHAT'S MINOR, WHAT'S [02:20:01] MAJOR? BUT LIKE OAK FARMS SIGN, Y'ALL HAVE SEEN THE OAK FARM SIGN ON I 10 BECAUSE OF PIGEON POOP. THEY, UM, THERE'S CRACKS ALL IN THE TORSION TUBE. THAT'S THE MAIN SUPPORT HORIZONTAL SYSTEM THAT GOES ACROSS AND IT ACTUALLY RUSTED ALL THE WAY THROUGH. I, I DEALT, I'VE WORKED WITH ART, UH, THE SIGN INSPECTION DIVISION AND WE HAD TO COME UP WITH AN ENGINEERING PLAN TO REPLACE THAT WHOLE HEAD. SO WE TOOK THAT WHOLE UPPER STRUCTURE OFF AND UM, 'CAUSE IT, THAT'S MAJOR, THAT TOOK A PERMIT. UM, BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE MINOR THAT ARE NOT, UH, IT COULD BE A BRACKET, IT COULD BE SOMETHING AS EASY AS REPLACING A PIECE OF GRATE, UH, THE CATWALK, WHICH YOU STAND ON IN ORDER TO SERVICE THE SIGN. IT COULD BE SOMETHING THAT MINOR. SO, UM, YEAH, TO, TO ACTUALLY, UM, COME UP WITH SOME DEFINITIONS OF WHAT'S MINOR. I, WE COULD PROBABLY DO THAT. I'LL BE GLAD TO ASSIST. YOUR EXPLANATION IS SUFFICIENT. YEAH, THAT PUTS IT IN PERSPECTIVE FOR ME. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. OKAY. OKAY. SO NEXT MEETING, IF WE CAN GET THAT AGREED TO LANGUAGE, IF WE CAN GET THERE, THAT WOULD BE GREAT BECAUSE THAT WILL MAKE IT A WHOLE LOT EASIER. SO WE'RE GONNA DIVIDE IT UP RATHER THAN BY CATEGORIZING THE WORK. WE ARE GONNA COME UP WITH A LIST OF WHAT REQUIRES A PERMIT, WHAT DOESN'T. OKAY. NEXT ITEM. SO CHAIR, I GUESS I WANT TO TAKE A TEMPERATURE OF THE ROOM. UH, NEXT ITEM IS THE INCREASING OF THE HEIGHT OF SIGNS THAT ARE OBSTRUCTED. I KNOW WE WERE KIND OF LATE INTO THIS MEETING ALREADY AND WE ALSO HAVE THE PRESENTATION THAT WAS REQUESTED ON THE DIGI HISTORY OF THE DIGITAL SIGN ORDINANCE THAT I CAN PRESENT IT AS WELL. UH, THAT SHOULD PROBABLY TAKE ABOUT 10, 15 MINUTES DEPENDING ON QUESTIONS AND FOLLOW UP. SO I WANT TO, WHAT'S, WHAT'S OUR SCHEDULED QUIT TIME? 1130. OH, WE CAN GO AS LONG AS THE COMMITTEE. NO, I, YEAH, I, WHILE RATHER THAN GOING THROUGH A PRESENTATION AT THE END OF THE MEETING, WHY DON'T WE GO TO THE HEIGHT DEAL AND SEE IF WE CAN COME TO SOME, I THINK YOU HAD SOME LANGUAGE, CORRECT? THAT IS CORRECT. WE SOLVED THAT LAST TIME. WELL, WE, THEY HAVE THE ACTUAL LANGUAGE NOW. OKAY. SO THIS IS CHAPTER 28 AMENDMENT ITEM 10 DASH ONE EXTERNAL REQUEST TO ADD A HEIGHT ADJUSTMENT PERMIT FOR OFF-PREMISE BILLBOARDS THAT ARE CURRENTLY OBSTRUCTED TO ALLOW FOR AN INCREASE IN THE HEIGHT OF AN EXISTING SIGN TO A MAXIMUM OF 85 FEET. THIS WOULD BE A NEW SECTION UNDER 28, 31 D SUBSECTION FOUR. UH, JUST SO EVERYBODY CAN KINDA SEE WHERE THE FALL UNDER THIS IS PERMIT APPLICATION PROCESS. S AND I WANT TO, AND THIS IS FOUR BILLBOARDS ONLY, SO OFF-PREMISE ADVERTISEMENT, AND THIS IS WOULD BE THE NEW LANGUAGE. JUST THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE. YEAH. THAT, THAT, NOW THIS IS TO GO UP TO 85 FEET, BUT IF THE, IS THE WAY IT'S STATED NOW, ALLOW IT TO BE INTERPRETED FOR SOME OF THOSE OTHER THINGS THAT WE PREVIOUSLY LIMITED TO 65, I THINK. OKAY. SO LET, LET ME, LET ME RATHER THAN GO, LET'S JUST GO OVER WHAT I THOUGHT WE SAID WAS OKAY BECAUSE I THINK THERE, SO IF THE, THERE'S A BILLBOARD THAT'S UP, WHATEVER HEIGHT THAT WAS ALLOWED AND THE CITY OR THE STATE COMES AND BUILDS A ROADWAY THAT BLOCKS THE BILLBOARD AND OBSTRUCTS THE VIEW. AND, AND SO IT WOULD HAVE TO BE BLOCKING THE VIEW, NOT, YOU KNOW, ADJACENT TO IT. BUT IT HAD TO ACTUALLY BLOCK THE VIEW. THE BILLBOARD COMPANY WOULD BE ABLE TO COME AND RAISE THE HEIGHT OF THE SIGN TO THE GREATER OF EITHER 45 FEET ABOVE THE ROADWAY OR A MAXIMUM OF 85 FEET, WHICH IS THE TXDOT LIMIT RATHER THAN THE 60 FEET. AND THEN THEY WOULD HAVE TO TAKE DOWN, I BELIEVE JEREMY, THAT SAYS ONE IN THE SAME ROADWAY OR TWO SOMEPLACE ELSE. CORRECT? [02:25:04] CORRECT. UH, SO THE, THE TAKE DOWNS WOULD'VE TO BE IN THE SAME CORRIDOR. UH, ITEM E WAS, UH, BASED ON THE COMMITTEE'S DISCUSSION OF TRYING TO MAKE THIS TO WHERE IT'S MORE UNIVERSAL TO ALL, UH, INDUSTRY PROFESSIONALS OUT THERE AND NOT JUST LIMITED TO THOSE THAT WOULD HAVE AN INVENTORY BIG ENOUGH TO TAKE ONE DOWN AND BRING ANOTHER ONE UP. SO IT'S KIND OF SAYING INSTEAD OF IT BEING ONE SIGN OF THE EQUIVALENT SIZE, WHICH IS KIND OF WHAT WE USE FOR RELOCATION PERMITS, THIS WOULD BE AN ACCUMULATION OF ENOUGH TAKE DOWNS THAT EQUATE TO THE SAME SQUARE FOOTAGE COULD RAISE IT UP SO THAT IT, IT OPENS IT UP TO TWO MORE THE INDUSTRY, BUT ONLY IF THEY DON'T HAVE ANOTHER SIGN WITHIN THE CORRIDOR. CORRECT. SO IF THAT'S CORRECT, IF IT, IF THEY HAVE A SIGN WITHIN THE CORRIDOR, THEY WOULD HAVE TO TAKE DOWN A SIGN WITHIN THE CORRIDOR TO DO THIS, CORRECT? THAT IS CORRECT. YEAH. I APOLOGIZE. YEAH. THAT, THAT IS THE FIRST STIPULATION. BUT THERE'S, BUT ONCE AGAIN, TRYING TO OPEN IT UP TO AS MANY INDUSTRY PROFESSIONALS AS POSSIBLE WOULD BE SECTION E. IF THEY, IF THEY, IF THEY DON'T HAVE A SIGN IN THE COURT ORDER, THEY JUST CAN'T DO IT. NO, THEN THE, THEN E WOULD APPLY IF THEY DON'T HAVE A SIGN IN THE COURT ORDER, THE CITY. OKAY, SO E WOULD APPLY. SO IF, IF THE, I HAVE A BILLBOARD, THE CITY, CITY BUILDS A FLYOVER AND IT, THE, THE ROAD GOES RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE BILLBOARD. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE. SO THE, THE CITY HAS MADE THAT BILLBOARD USELESS IN ORDER TO MAKE THE BILLBOARD THAT I ALREADY HAD USEFUL, AGAIN, I HAVE TO SACRIFICE TWO OTHER BILLBOARDS. NO ONE IF YOU ONE, IF YOU TAKE IT DOWN WITHIN THE CORRIDOR OR IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY WITHIN THAT CORRIDOR. OKAY? SO I HAVE TO SACRIFICE AT LEAST ONE OR MAYBE TWO BILLBOARDS TO BE ABLE TO RECOVER MY BILLBOARD. WHY? WHY WOULDN'T WE JUST ALLOW THE BILLBOARD TO BE ADJUSTED IN HEIGHT TO BE USEFUL AGAIN? RIGHT. I CONCUR. BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT MY ORIGINAL UNDERSTANDING WAS, THAT YOU'RE JUST ADDING HEIGHT TO THE EXISTING SIGN, THE, THE EXISTING BILLBOARD SIGN. AND YOU KNOW, LIKE ME BEING WHO I AM AND NOT REALIZING THAT, I WAS THINKING YOU'RE JUST GONNA ADD ONTO THAT PULL. BUT YOU CAN'T DO THAT, CAN YOU? YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE WHOLE THING DOWN. NO MA'AM. YOU DON'T. NO, NOT AT ALL. IT DEPE IT DEPENDS ON ENGINEERING, JUST LIKE ANYTHING ELSE. UM, IN A LOT OF CASES OR IN MANY CASES, WHAT WE CAN DO, AND IT'S ALSO DEPENDS ON HOW HIGH WE NEED IT. I MEAN IT'S, IF YOU'RE COMING FROM 42 85, YEAH, THAT'S, THAT'S A LOT. BUT THAT'S NOT PRACTICAL AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE WORKING WITH THE CITY. AND IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT WE HAVE TO WORK WITH THE CITY ON THAT. SO WE CAN'T PUT, FOR EXAMPLE, SOMETHING 85 FEET IF WE DON'T NEED IT. THE CITY'S GOING TO SAY NO, YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT MUCH. SOMETIMES WE CAN JUST TAKE, UH, A STUB AND PUT IT OVER THE TOP OF IT, OF THE EXISTING POLE TO RAISE IT. THAT'S, THAT'S CHEAPER. THAT'S WHAT WE'D LIKE TO DO. . I MEAN, YOU KNOW, BUT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN IF, IF THE POLE WAS ANCIENT AND CAN'T HANDLE THAT KIND OF, UH, THE WIND LOAD, WE WOULD REPLACE THE POLE ONLY. NOT THE, NOT THE SUPERSTRUCTURE, JUST THE POLE. AND THE LANGUAGE HERE SAYS ALLOCATE A RELOCATION PERMIT. SO RELOCATE TO WHERE, LIKE RIGHT NEXT TO THE EXISTING POLE? NO, WHAT IT'S NOT GONNA BE RELOCATED AT ALL. IT'S, THAT'S A LITTLE, LITTLE BIT OF A FICTION. UH, WHAT WHAT WE WERE LOOKING TO DO WAS TRY TO INTEGRATE THIS LANGUAGE INTO THE RELOCATION PERMIT LANGUAGE. IF YOU SCROLL UP, YOU'LL SAY THAT, YOU'LL SEE THAT THIS IS ABOUT RELOCATION PERMITS. SO WHAT WE'RE REALLY SAYING IS YOU TAKE DOWN ONE SIGN, WHICH WHICH WE'RE CALLING A RELOCATION PERMIT RIGHT THERE. BUT THAT SAME, THAT SECOND SIGN, THE IF, IF YOU ARE MOVING OR CHANGING IT TO HEIGHT, YOU CANNOT MOVE THE STRUCTURE AT ALL. IT HAS TO STAY IN THE EXACT SAME PLACE. SO LET, LET ME GO BACK. OKAY, LET'S TAKE A, LET, LET'S TAKE A STEP. I'M REALLY CONFUSED. OKAY, LET, LET, LET'S JUST TAKE A STEP BACK. MIKE HAS RAISED THE ISSUE THAT IF I HAVE A SIGN UP AND THE CITY COMES AND RUINS THAT SIGN OR THE STATE, YOU KNOW, BY PUTTING SOME FLYOVER, I GOT THAT. OKAY. DO YOU THINK THAT TO FIX THE PROBLEM THE SIGN COMPANY SHOULD HAVE TO TAKE DOWN A, ANOTHER, AN ADDITIONAL SIGN TO BE ABLE TO BE RAISE THAT SIGN? OF COURSE I DO. OKAY. WHICH IS WHAT WE ALL SO WE'RE WE'RE SAYING THAT THEY SHOULD TAKE DOWN, EXCUSE ME, THAT THEY SHOULD TAKE DOWN ANOTHER SIGN SHOULD TO FIX THE PROBLEM THAT THIS CITY OR STATE CREATED. YEAH, YEAH. I DISAGREE WITH THAT A HUNDRED PERCENT. WHY, WHY WOULD YOU PENALIZE THEM TWO TIMES IT? I HAVE, THEY'RE PROPOSING THIS, THIS IS THEIR PROPOSAL. YEAH. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WE'RE INFLICTING UPON. NO MA'AM. NO MA'AM. THIS IS NOT OUR PROPOSAL. THIS IS, THIS IS HIS PROPOSAL. THAT WAS, THIS IS THE CHAIR'S PROPOSAL. THIS WAS MY PROPOSAL TO MAKE THEM IN. SO I THOUGHT WE WERE GONNA GET AN I WE GOT AN INVENTORY OF THE SIGNS THAT WERE OVER THERE. MY BIG CONCERN WAS THAT IN THE VALIDITY [02:30:01] OF THE OBSTRUCTION AND THE MAXIMUM OF THE HEIGHT, I DON'T FEEL THAT THIS IS IN THE RIGHT SECTION OF THE CODE UNDER THE LOCATION. I DON'T EITHER. I THINK IT SHOULD BE, UH, AND THEN A HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION SECTION ALL BY ITSELF SO THAT IT'S CLEAR BECAUSE IT'S REALLY NOT A RELOCATION DEAL. AND WE'LL GET THAT CORRECTED, BUT FORGET ABOUT WHERE IT IS RIGHT NOW. LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT GO THROUGH SIGN IS OBSTRUCTED AND I THINK JEREMY, WE NEED TO ADD IN A DEFINITION OF, INTO THIS OF WHAT THAT MEANS SO THAT WE'RE EVERY, THERE IS NO WIGGLE ROOM AS TO WHAT THAT MEANS. MR. CHAIR. YES. IT'S IN THERE. IT'S ALREADY IN THERE. IF YOU'LL, IF YOU'LL LOOK AT, UM, UH, FOUR A APPLICATION WITH THE DEPARTMENT PROVIDING A PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE, BLAH, BLAH, OBSTRUCTED BY A RAMP ELEVATED ROADWAY, TRAFFIC SIGN OR SIMILAR HIGHWAY STRUCTURE. THAT'S, BUT WE PUT IT, THAT WAS THE REQUEST OF THE VEHICLE FROM LAST TIME. I WOULD JUST ASK THAT BE A LITTLE MORE DE ADD A LITTLE, UH, ITTY BIT MORE DETAIL THAT SAYS FROM THE, THE WAY IT'S BEING VIEWED SO THAT IT COULD BE OBSTRUCTED. BUT IF IT DOESN'T MAKE A, IN OTHER WORDS, IF THE SIGN COULD EITHER BE MOVED DOWN OR UP DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU HAVE THERE AND WHAT YOUR TARGET POPULATION OF VIEWERS IS. SO FOR EXAMPLE, ON THE FOUR 10 I 10 INTERCHANGE WHERE THIS, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THAT IS, THAT'S BY THE INTERNATIONAL BUILDING THAT'S LIKE HALF UP, HALF DOWN, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD PROBABLY MOVE THAT UP SO THAT IT'S VISIBLE OFF THE RAMP. SO I JUST WANT TO TIGHTEN IT UP A LITTLE THAT IT JUST SAYS THAT. AND SO I THINK THAT IS THE BEGINNING OF THE DEFINITION WITH A LITTLE TWEAKING. YES. DO YOU WANNA GO FIRST? OKAY, SO I, I'M GOING TO, UH, SWITCH HATS HERE. I OWN EIGHT BILLBOARDS HERE IN TOWN AND ONE AT FOUR 10 AND I 35 THERE AT THE H E B WAREHOUSE. NOW I KNOW IT'S GONNA BE A FLYOVER ONE DAY. I DON'T HAVE THE INVENTORY TO TAKE DOWN ONE TO BE ABLE TO RAISE THAT, WHERE THAT BILLBOARD WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE ITS VALUE. SO I WOULD, I WOULD MORE BE IN LINE TO IF, IF THERE IS A, A FLYOVER THAT WE'RE, WE HAVE THE ABILITY WITH, WITH IF IT'S PERMITTABLE TO RAISE THE HEIGHT, NOT HAVE TO TAKE DOWN ONE. 'CAUSE I ONLY HAVE EIGHT IN TOWN AND THAT'S PROBABLY THE BEST BILLBOARD I HAVE. IT'S THERE AT THE IMPERIAL BATTERY. IT'S A NEW BUSINESS THERE AT THE H E B WAREHOUSE. I KNOW IT'S GONNA BE A FLYOVER IN PROBABLY 3, 4, 5 YEARS. 'CAUSE THEY'RE GONNA EXTEND I 35 QUARTER ALL THE WAY UP TO 1103. AND THAT'S GONNA BE, THAT BILLBOARD'S GONNA EITHER JUST BE BELOW GRADE AND I GUESS THE, THE PEOPLE THAT GO INTO H E B WAREHOUSE CAN READ IT. BUT THAT'S NOT REALLY WHAT I WANT. I WOULD PREFER THAT I WOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO, ON A ONE FOR ONE BASIS IF IT NEEDED HEIGHT, THAT I COULD RAISE THE HEIGHT TO THAT PARTICULAR BILLBOARD. I, I'M GLAD THAT, THAT THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO WAS GROWING. I'M GLAD THE TECH DOTS DOING THEIR IMPROVEMENTS, BUT WE SHOULDN'T BE PENALIZED, UM, FOR, FOR UH, YOU KNOW, FLYOVERS THAT, UH, IN THAT BILLBOARD WILL BECOME JUST OF NO VALUE AT ALL. THAT'S MY COMMENT, BIANCA. SO MY ONLY CONCERN WITH THE LANGUAGE, AND THIS GOES TO THE TIMING OF WHEN THE IMPROVEMENTS WERE MADE. I GUESS WHEN I TRAVEL I 10 WESTBOUND, THERE'S A LOGINS, UH, BILLBOARD RIGHT NOW, BUT I THINK IT'S ABOUT COLORADO AND I 10 AND YOU CAN SEE IT, BUT SOMEBODY MAY SAY, WELL, IT'S A TWO STORY INTERSTATE AND IT MAY NOT HAVE THE BEST VISIBILITY. AND OH, I, BY THE WAY, I'D LIKE TO RAISE THAT ONE TOO. WHEREAS I THINK THE INTENT IS REALLY TO FOCUS ON THE AREAS THAT HAVE HAD THE FLYOVER SPECIFICALLY AT 2 81 AND 4, 10 16 0 4 AND 2 81. THAT'S RIGHT. AND I HAVE NOT BEEN OUT TO THE, UH, FLYOVER AGAIN TO GO LOOK 1 15, 1 51 AND FOUR 10. UM, AND THEN WHAT IS TO COME OBVIOUSLY AT WHAT WE KNOW KNOW AT 1604 AND I 10, WE'RE GONNA HAVE THE FOUR DECKS OF INTERSTATE OUT THERE. SO I JUST WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOME ADDITIONAL LANGUAGE PUT IN THERE SO SOMEBODY CAN'T MAKE A CASE AND SAY, OH LOOK, THERE'S AN OBSTRUCTION, BUT IT'S BEEN THERE FOR YEARS. YEAH, I JUST, I JUST WANNA TRULY FOCUS ON OUR INTENT HERE. IN OTHER WORDS, THEY'RE GONNA HAVE, THEY'RE GONNA HAVE TO PICK WHICH VIEW THEY'RE TRYING TO PROTECT. SO FOR EXAMPLE, THE, THE BILLBOARDS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FROM THE UPPER DECK, YOU, THEY'RE THE PERFECT BILLBOARD BECAUSE BASICALLY THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, 10 FEET OVER THE ROADWAY AND STARE AT YOU LIKE, YOU KNOW, IT'S A [02:35:01] TV IN YOUR LIVING ROOM. BUT I THINK THE BIGGER QUESTION IS, IS IF THE CITY COME, OR THE STATE OR SOME FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WHO WHOEVER COMES AND MAKES YOUR PROPERTY USELESS BY, YOU KNOW, DOING A PUBLIC PROJECT, YOU KNOW, SHOULD YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT? YOU KNOW, SHOULD YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP AN INCOME SOURCE TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT. AND A GREAT EXAMPLE WOULD BE IS IF THEY GOT TWO FEET INTO THE RIGHT OF WAY AND, AND THE THE RIGHT OF WAY MOVED OVER TWO FEET AND THE BILLBOARD WAS IN THE RIGHT OF WAY, THEY'D LET YOU RELOCATE IT WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING. SO WHAT DIFFERENCE IS THERE BETWEEN THAT AND THEN BASICALLY BLOCKING THE SIGN? ANY OTHER BUSINESS WOULD BE ABLE TO RAISE THEIR SIGN OR LOWER THEIR SIGN TO BE VISIBLE FROM THE STREET. WHY WOULD THIS BE DIFFERENT? I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. I JUST WANTED IT MORE FOCUSED ON NO, NO, NO. I, I AGREE WITH YOUR DEFINITION. I THINK WE'RE ALL PAST THAT THOUGH. ARE WE NOT? YEAH, I THINK WE'RE ALL IN AGREEMENT. WELL, BUT, BUT SOMEONE IS SUGGESTING THAT THE I DISAGREE WITH YOU. I, I THINK THAT IF THE, IF IT'S OBSTRUCTED, IT'S OBSTRUCTED WHETHER THE OBSTRUCTION HAPPENED A LONG TIME AGO OR NOT, IF IT, IF IT DOESN'T WORK, IT DOESN'T WORK. AND I, YOU KNOW, BUT WHATEVER. RIGHT? NO, BUT MIKE, I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT BIANCA'S SAYING. WHAT SHE'S SAYING IS NO, TAKE THE UPPER DECK OF, OF THE UPPER DECK HERE COMING INTO DOWNTOWN. THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH OF BILLBOARDS UP THAT LISTEN, I I I I MEAN I I I I GET IT. I MEAN, BUT WHAT YOU SAID WAS IT, IT THIS SHOULD ONLY COVER THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING NOW, NOT THINGS THAT HAPPENED A LONG TIME AGO. THOSE, THOSE ARE THE WORDS YOU USED. I THINK I UNDERSTOOD 'EM. CORRECT. AND I, AND THAT'S WHAT I'M DISAGREEING WITH SPECIFICALLY THE FLYOVERS. YES. YEAH. AND FLYOVERS AND I, I, I'M NOT IN THE BILLBOARD BUSINESS. UM, I, I EXPECT THAT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE IN THE BILLBOARD BUSINESS PUT BILLBOARDS WHERE THEY'RE GONNA BE VALUABLE. I EXPECT PEOPLE THAT BUY ADVERTISEMENT ON THE BILLBOARD ARE BUYING ADVERTISEMENTS WHERE THEY THINK IT'LL BE VALUABLE. AND IF THEY DON'T GET RETURN ON THAT ADVERTISEMENT, THAT THEY'RE GONNA STOP BUYING IT. SO, UM, THE SIGN COMPANY BENEFITS THE CUSTOMERS, THE CITIZENS OF SAN ANTONIO BENEFIT BY SEEING THIS SIGN AND KNOWING THAT THERE'S A SERVICE THAT THEY WANT TO GO BUY. I MEAN, THAT'S, THAT'S THE MARKET. UM, I CAN'T FATHOM WHY WE WOULD MAKE A SIGN OPERATOR SACRIFICE A SIGN THAT HAS BECOME OBSOLETE BY ACTION OF A GOVERNMENT ENTITY. UM, WHETHER THAT HAPPENED, YOU KNOW, IN THE FUTURE OR IN THE PAST, YOU KNOW, THEY, EITHER WAY THEY HAVE TO SHOW PICTURES THAT SAY THIS IS AN OBSTRUCTED SIGN. UM, AND I DON'T THINK WE BENEFIT THE CITIZENS OF SAN ANTONIO BY, BY DOING THAT. SO THAT'S MY THEORY ON IT. MY WHOLE THOUGHT IS THE EVOLUTION OF THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE VISIBILITY OF A SIGN OVER TIME. SO A BILLBOARD MAY HAVE BEEN INSTALLED IN THE DOUBLE DECKER. THAT'S THE AREA THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT ON I 10 WESTBOUND AND ITS CURRENT BUILD OUT, YOU KNOW, THE BILLBOARD CAME AFTER POTENTIALLY THE INTERSTATE SYSTEM. I DON'T WANNA SEE THAT SIGN RAISED FURTHER. THAT'S MY POINT. THAT'S WHY I DON'T WANNA HOLISTICALLY SAY BIANCA ARBITRARILY THAT THERE COULD BE AN OBSTRUCTION. I DON'T WANT SOMEBODY TO STAND AT THE LOWER LEVEL AND BE LIKE, LOOK, YOU CAN'T SEE IT FROM DOWN HERE, BUT YOU CAN SEE IT VERY WELL ON THE UPPER LEVEL AND YOU CAN SEE IT ON THE LOWER LEVEL, BUT MAYBE IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, THE PERFECT LOCATION. SO THAT'S WHY I JUST REALLY WANTED TO COME BACK TO THE FLYOVER PIECE. THAT'S, THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT. I UNDERSTAND THE HARDSHIP. CAN YOU EXPLAIN IT? I'M SORRY, I'M LOST. OKAY, LET, LEMME TRY BECAUSE I, CHAIR, CHAIR, IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND, I, BECAUSE I'M GONNA HAVE TO CODIFY THIS, RIGHT? SO I WANNA MAKE, THE WAY I'M READING THIS SOUNDS LIKE WE NEED PROOF THAT THE SIGN WAS, WHICH CAME FIRST, WHAT WAS THE STATUS OF THE HIGHWAY WHEN THE SIGN WAS INSTALLED. IF YOU CAN SHOW US PROOF OF THAT, THEN YOU CAN MAKE THE CHANGE. IF, IF THE SIGN WAS THERE BEFORE THE CHANGE IN THE HIGHWAY AND IT'S OBSTRUCTED, IS THAT AND, AND WHAT BIANCA IS TALKING NO, I REALLY JUST WANT YOU, YOU COULD JUST PUT A DATE WHEN WE DID THE, THE WHEN THE FOUR 10, UH, 2 81. YEAH. OVER HERE. SO AT THAT POINT THEN IT'S A 20 YEARS OR SOME, SOME VEIN. OKAY. NO, SO, SO BASICALLY WHAT THE PICTURE IS, IS TAKE I 10 GOING INTO DOWNTOWN, THERE ARE BILLBOARDS ON THE UPPER DECK THAT ARE, THAT ARE CLEAR. THEY ARE NOT OBSTRUCTED FROM THE UPPER DECK AT ALL. OKAY. BIANCA DOES NOT WANT SOMEONE TO SAY THAT BECAUSE THE HIGHWAY GOT BUILT AND IT OBSTRUCTED THE VISIBILITY FROM THE LOWER DECK THAT THEY NOW CAN COME RAISE THE SIGN. OKAY. BECAUSE THERE IS NO VISIBILITY ISSUE FROM THE UPPER DECK. AND, AND AT THAT POINT, THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND CORRECT. Y YES. FOR WHATEVER REASON THEY WOULD WANNA RAISE IT. YEAH. I DON'T WANNA SEE THOSE RAISED. YEAH. OKAY. SO I, AND, AND I THINK WE'RE ALL IN AGREEMENT THAT THAT'S NOT THE SIGN. SO WE'LL WORK ON THE DEFINITION TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S CLEAR. NOW TO MIKE'S [02:40:01] SECOND IS WHAT I THINK E HAS NO PLACE IN THIS. SAY THAT AGAIN. I THINK, I THINK E HAS NO PLACE IN THIS. WELL, THAT'S WHAT I'M GETTING TO RIGHT NOW. SO MY, MY QUESTION IS, IS IF THE CITY, IF A GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY DOES SOMETHING TO BLOCK SOMEBODY'S SIGN, SHOULD THEY BE ABLE TO RAISE THE SIGN TO GET THE SAME VISIBILITY THEY HAD WITHOUT HAVING TO BE PENALIZED BY ONE OR TWO SIGNS? I THINK THE, THE HERE JUST . YEAH, I, I, YEAH. SO I'M, I'M ASKING FROM OUR NON, BY THE WAY. YEAH, WE DON'T EITHER. BUT IT SEEMS LIKE AN ILLEGAL BUSINESS, ILLEGAL TAKING TO ME BUSINESS. SORRY, YOU'RE TRYING TO THEM. I AM IT, FOR ME, I'M A BILLBOARD READER AND SINCE I JOINED THIS COMMITTEE, I'M REALLY READING A LOT OF BILLBOARDS THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S MADE ME HEIGHTENED, MY SENSITIVITY IS HEIGHTENED TO THE BILLBOARDS. UM, I I HAVE A BACKGROUND IN YOUR INDUSTRY BY OSMOSIS. MY FIRST HUSBAND WAS IN THE SIGN INDUSTRY. DON'T HOLD THAT AGAINST, I, UH, WELL I HOLD A LOT AGAINST HIM, BUT ANYWAY, AGAINST THEM, UM, IT PROVIDED A GOOD LIVING. I WILL SAY THAT. BUT I'VE, I HAVE A HEIGHTENED SENSITIVITY TOWARD IT. TOWARD IT. I'M ALSO A PRESERVATIONIST, A CONSERVATIONIST, AND I DON'T LIKE CLUTTER. AND I'M A TOUR GUIDE. SO I LOOK AT THE BEAUTY OF OUR CITY. SO IT'S PROBABLY UNFAIR FOR ME TO SAY, WELL, HELL YEAH, LET'S TAKE DOWN SOME MORE SIGNS. BUT IT'S NOT FAIR TO YOU. SO I, I STAND TO SUPPORT THE REMOVAL OF SIGNS, BUT CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THE ECONOMIC IMPACT THAT IT PUTS ON YOU AS AN INDUSTRY MEMBER. SO, YOU KNOW, SO PATTY, LET ME, LET ME, IT'S KIND OF A MO ON THE SPOT BECAUSE YOU'RE, YOU'RE, YOU'RE DOING, WHAT I OFTEN TRY TO DO IS SIT ON THE, THE FENCE WITH ONE LEG ON EACH SIDE. AND, AND SO WHAT I'M ASKING IS, IS THAT IF, IF THE CI, IF A GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY DOES SOMETHING TO OBSTRUCT THEIR SIGN FROM A EQUITY POINT OF VIEW, IS IT FAIR TO MAKE THEM TAKE DOWN ANOTHER SIGN JUST TO BE ABLE TO CORRECT SOMETHING THAT THE GOVERNMENT DID? THEY DID EVERYTHING RIGHT. THEY, THEY'RE AT THE RIGHT HEIGHT. NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU KNOW, THEY GOT A PERMIT. THEY'VE SIGNED A 20 YEAR LEASE WITH THE LANDLORD AGREEING TO PAY 'EM $2,000 A MONTH, WHETHER THE SIGN CAN BE SEEN OR NOT, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THE SIGN CAN'T BE SEEN. SHOULD WE PENALIZE THEM EXTRA FOR SOMETHING THEY HAD NO CONTROL OVER, OR NO KNOWLEDGE THAT THAT WAS GONNA HAPPEN? WELL, WHILE I DON'T LOOK AT IT AS A PENALTY, AND I, I AGREE WITH YOU, I MUST CONCUR THAT IT'S AN EXISTING SIGN OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF YOUR HEART TO MAKE POINTS WITH, WITH CERTAIN ORGANIZATIONS AND INDIVIDUALS. IT WOULD BE NICE TO TAKE, TAKE THINGS DOWN THAT ARE NO LONGER EFFECTIVE, THAT IN YOUR MIND, AS INDUSTRY MEMBERS DO NOT CONVEY THE MESSAGE THAT YOU WISH THEM TO CONVEY. BUT YOU KNOW, YOU'RE RAISING IT UP TO WHERE PEOPLE CAN SEE IT. YOU PROBABLY GET TO A POINT IF YOUR CUSTOMERS FEEL LIKE THEIR ADVERTISING IMPACT IS NOT THERE BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE SEEN, THEN YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO RENT IT. AND I THINK I'D MUCH RATHER HAVE A SIGN THAT IS CONVEYING A CERTAIN MESSAGE THAN JUST HAVING SOMETHING SIT THERE IDLE AND BE UGLY. SO, OKAY, IT'S, YOU'RE RIGHT, IT'S ON THE FENCE. I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT SIGNS THAT ARE ACTUALLY CURRENTLY OBSTRUCTED, NOT GOING FORWARD. IS IT GOING TO BE OBSTRUCTED? YOU KNOW, TXDOT DOESN'T MOVE THAT FAST. THEY DON'T, FURTHERMORE, YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THEIR ROADWAY IS EXACTLY GOING TO GO. SO I WOULDN'T WANT TO SAY, WELL WE KNOW THIS IS EVENTUALLY GONNA BE A FLYOVER, LET'S LET 'EM RAISE IT. WELL, NO, THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO RAISE IT UNTIL THE SIGN WAS ACTUALLY OBSTRUCTED. BUT, BUT I GO BACK AND, AND I THINK WE'RE ALL IN AGREEMENT ON THAT. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THEY CAN DO PROACTIVELY WHEN THEY, WHEN TXDOT RAISE IT STARTS TO FLY OVER AND, YOU KNOW, STARTS MOVING IT AND THEIR SIGN CAN'T BE SEEN, THEN THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO COME PROVIDE THIS. BUT I GO BACK TO MY QUESTION IS, SHOULD [02:45:01] THEY, FOR, FOR AN ACTION THAT IS NOT, IS BEYOND THEIR CONTROL, DO WE PENALIZE THEM AGAIN BY MAKING THEM TAKING DOWN A SIGN? BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE SIGN INVENTORY, YOU KNOW, CLEAR CHANNEL MAY BE ABLE TO GIVE THAT UP. THE SMALLER COMPANIES, YOU KNOW, THAT HAVE FIVE OR SIX SIGNS MAY NOT, OR IT MAY BE THE ONLY SIGN THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, AND THEN THEY'RE REALLY IN A POOR PLACE. BUT FROM AN EQUITY POINT OF VIEW, IS IT FAIR TO DO THAT? OR ARE YOU OKAY WITH JUST SAYING IF THIS HAPPENS, YOU CAN RAISE THE SIGN THAT ONE SIGN YOU CAN RAISE IT SO IT CAN BE SEEN. OKAY. SINCE THEY CAN'T HEAR MY NOD OF THE HEAD, I'M OKAY WITH RAISING THAT SIGN WITH NO OFFSET. BIANCA, I CAN UNDERSTAND WHERE E CAME FROM TO BE HONEST, BECAUSE ESSENTIALLY IT'S A WHOLE NEW SIGN. BUT THERE IS A HARDSHIP IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION WHEN YOU ARE SEEKING TO ADJUST FOR THE FLYOVERS THAT HAVE BEEN CONSTRUCTED TO, UM, ALLOW MOBILITY IN OUR CITY. UM, I DO RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS A HARDSHIP AT THAT I DO. SO I WOULD SAY I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE REMOVAL OF E BUT I DO HAVE CONCERN ABOUT THE OVERALL HEIGHT OF THE 85 FEET. I DO NOT WANT TO SEE A SIGN THAT IS COMPLETELY OUT OF PROPORTION BECAUSE WE HAVE A FLY OVER TO THAT OVERALL AREA. IF YOU GO TO THE, I THINK THAT, THAT, THAT'S MY BIGGEST CONCERN. AND, AND AND THOSE SPECIFIC LOCATIONS THAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, THAT WE'VE IDENTIFIED WHERE THERE IS THAT HARDSHIP, I DON'T WANT, YES, I DON'T WANT THINGS TO TURN INTO A COMPETITIVE SITUATION. WELL, THE ANGLE OF THE INTERSTATE AS WE APPROACH THE INTERSECTION GIVES MY COMPETITOR A HIGHER VISIBILITY THAN MY, YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANNA GET INTO ALL OF THAT. SO THAT'S WHY I WAS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT IT BEING VERY SPECIFIC ABOUT THE LOCATIONS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. BECAUSE AS YOU APPROACH SOME OF THOSE FLYOVERS, YES, THERE'S BEEN SOME CHANGES. THEY'RE NOT OBSTRUCTIONS, BUT IS THE VIEWABILITY OF THAT SIGN THE SAME AS IT WAS BEFORE? IT MAY HAVE ALTERED A LITTLE BIT, BUT I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE CLEAR AND CONCISE IN WHERE WE'RE DECLARING THE HARDSHIP. AND I THINK THERE'S SOME CLEAR EXAMPLES THAT THEY STAY IN THE SAME LOCATION. OF COURSE, YOU'RE ADDING ONTO THAT EXISTING POLE AND THAT WE NOT LOOK AT THE MAXIMUM HEIGHT THAT WE LOOK AT A RELATIVE HEIGHT, BECAUSE I THINK IF YOU GIVE EVERYBODY THE CEILING, THEY ALWAYS WANT TO GO TO THE CEILING. YEAH, I, I THINK SO THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE MY CONCERNS WITH THE REMOVAL OF E OKAY, SO, SO LET ME JUST, I I WANT TO JUST BECAUSE I, AS WE GO FORWARD, THIS IS, YOU KNOW, GETS A, SO WE'RE GONNA WORK ON THE DE WE'RE GONNA WORK ON THE DEFINITION OF WHAT TRIGGERS IT, OKAY. TO TIGHTEN UP EXACTLY WHEN THAT HAPPENS ON THE HAVING TO TAKE ANYTHING DOWN, WE ARE GOING TO REMOVE THAT FROM THE DEAL AND THEN WE ARE GOING TO SET THE LIMITATIONS ON THE HEIGHT OF THE SIGN TO MAKE IT WHERE THERE'S NOT A SIGN STICKING UP IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE. AS WELL AS IF THE VISIBILITY OF THE SIGN IS REALLY NOT IMPACTED, THEN, YOU KNOW, IN OTHER WORDS, IF, IF THE SIGN IS BY THE FLYOVER AND, AND, BUT IT'S IN THE EARLY PART OF THE FLYOVER AND YOU CAN STILL SEE THE SIGN ALL THE WAY COMING DOWN THE STREET, THEY'RE NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO RAISE THAT. BUT IN THE EXAMPLE THAT I USE WHERE YOU'RE AT THE, THE SWING GOING INTO 2 81 DOWNTOWN OR 37 DOWNTOWN WHERE THE BILLBOARD SITS LIKE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROADWAY, THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO RAISE THAT UP, YOU KNOW, TO BE ABLE TO BE VISIBLE AND, BUT THEY'RE STILL LIMITED BY THAT SIGN STRUCTURE CAN'T BE ANY MORE THAN 85 FEET. SO IF THE FLYOVER, YOU KNOW, IS WAY TOO HIGH FOR THEM TO DO IT, IT HAS NO PRACTICAL. SO THEY'RE NOT GONNA DO THAT. THAT HAPPENS. BUT YOU CAN'T GO, BUT YOU CAN'T GO ABOVE 85 FEET NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. WE CARE TRANSPARENCY. OKAY. SO JEREMY, I THINK, YEAH, LET ME SOME DIRECTION WHAT WE'RE THINKING OR HEARING JUST SO THAT, UH, WE GOT THIS. SO RIGHT OFF THE BAT, NO, NO. DEMOLITION OF EXISTING SIGNS IN ORDER TO RAISE A SIGN IS A CONSENSUS. AND SO REDEFINE THIS AND RELOCATE THAT TO ACCOUNT FOR THAT. AND I WANNA MAKE SURE, SO THIS IS FOR EXISTING SIGNS AS WELL WITH THE CAVEAT, AND I'LL GO OVER TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DEFINE WHAT AN EXISTING SIGN WOULD [02:50:01] BE APPROVED UNDER THIS. SO I KNOW THEY'RE ALL EXISTING, BUT IN THE CASE POINT THAT THE GENERAL IS TALKING ABOUT, HEY, I KNOW IN THE FUTURE THEY'RE GONNA INSTALL ONE. SO THIS IS RETROACTIVE IN THE SENSE THAT IF THERE'S A CURRENT SIGN THAT A FLYOVER GOT BUILT 10 YEARS AGO, THEY COULD MOVE THIS UP WITHOUT PENALTY AT ALL. I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE IT'S KIND OF RETROACTIVE TO A CERTAIN POINT AND PROACTIVE ONCE A NEW ROAD IS BUILT AND THEN I'VE NOW BEEN OBSTRUCTED, I DON'T, SO WE'LL MAKE SURE THAT IT'S COMPLETELY, THERE IS NO PENALTY FOR, FOR HAVING TO RAISE IT. UM, BETTER DEFINITION ON, YOU KNOW, MAXIMUM HEIGHTS, 85, WE GOT THAT CLEAR BUT BETTER DEFINITION OF WHAT THE ACTUAL HEIGHT WILL BE APPROVED AT BY SOME CODIFICATION OF AN ADJACENT, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THAT RAMP IS OR WHATEVER THE OBSTRUCTION IS AND SOME MEASUREMENT POINT OFF THAT OBSTRUCTION PLUS 10 FEET, 15 FEET, WHATEVER THE SIGN INDUSTRY KIND OF NEEDS, BUT STILL APPLICABLE AND APPROVED BY THIS COMMITTEE. AND THEN ALSO TO, UH, BIANCA'S POINT OF TRYING TO, WHETHER IT BE WE ISOLATE, OKAY, THESE SPECIFIC FLYOVERS AT THIS POINT ARE MAYBE A, YOU KNOW WHAT, MOST OF THE FLYOVERS ARE 25 YEARS OLD OR MORE OR LESS. SO WE SAY THIS IS ONLY GOOD FOR SIGNS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR 25 AND OBSTRUCTED LET, IF YOU'RE OKAY WITH THAT APPROACH, WE JUST, WE'LL SEE WHAT MAKES SENSE AND IS BETTER TO CODIFY AND ENFORCE. BUT WE CAN KINDA LOOK AT THAT AND, AND SCRIPT THAT. ARE THOSE KIND OF THE THREE MAJOR CHANGES? YEAH, BUT I CHANGES, I WOULD SAY THAT IT'S MORE IMPORTANT TO DEFINE WHAT OBSTRUCTION IS RATHER THAN DEFINE AREA OR TYPE. SO I THINK IF THE SIGN IS VISIBLE FROM, IF FOR EXAMPLE, THE DOUBLE DECKER, IF IT'S CLEARLY VISIBLE AND NOT OBSTRUCTED ON THE UPPER DECK, THAT SIGN CAN'T BE RAISED. OKAY. PERIOD. OKAY. BUT, BUT IF, IF THE UPPER DECK OR THE FLYOVER CUTS A SIGN IN HALF, THEN THEY CAN CHOOSE TO EITHER MOVE IT UP OR MOVE IT DOWN. AND I THINK YOU NEED TO GIVE THE CHOICE. SO, WELL, WELL THAT'S, I GUESS THAT'S WHERE I WENT. SO IF YOU HAVE THE UPPER DECK, YOU CAN'T SEE IT ON THE UPPER DECK, BUT YOU CAN SEE IT JUST FINE ON THE LOWER DECK THEN YOU'RE, YOU'RE SAYING, SO I GUESS THAT WOULD BE, THEY WOULD HAVE TO, THE SIGN COMPANY AT THAT POINT WOULD HAVE TO DESIGNATE, YOU KNOW, WHICH ONE THEY WANT AND THEY CAN HAVE ONE OR THE OTHER AND NOT BOTH, BUT I MEAN, YOU SHOULD ALSO GIVE THEM THE ALTERNATIVE TO MOVE THE SIGN DOWN IF THEY WANT EXPOSURE FROM THE LOWER DEBT. UH, UH, BECAUSE I I, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE EXPOSURE THEY NORMALLY WANT. CORRECT? CORRECT. YEAH. I I REALLY THINK IF YOU GO 15 YEARS, I THINK IF YOU JUST PUT A TIMEFRAME ON IT, IT'S VERY CLEAR. YEAH. BUT THE I 10 INTERCHANGE MR. CHAIRMAN IS MORE THAN 15. THAT'S 20 YEARS OLD. SOME OF IT IS, SOME OF IT'S NOT, BUT YEAH. DEPENDS ON WHICH SIDE AND WE'LL, WE'LL TRY TO, AND WE'LL CLARIFY WHATEVER WE COME UP WITH, WHETHER IT BE A ZONE AREA OR A, A TIMEFRAME AND KIND SAY PART OF INSIDE, HERE'S ALL THE ROADS THAT HAVE BEEN ONE CORNER CONSTRUCTED BY THE WELL, I THINK THAT'S THE PROPER, THE CITY LIMIT LINE IS ITEM. YES. SO WILL OUR PREVIOUS ACTION BETWEEN THE 42 AND A HALF AND 60 FOOT COVER, MOST OF THOSE THAT ARE THE DOUBLE DECKER, THAT WAS, WE'RE NOT ABLE TO RAISE SIGNS AT ALL. THIS IS THE ONLY METHODOLOGY THAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE TO RAISE A SIGN. PERIOD. THE 60 FEET IS NOT GONNA APPLY IN SAN ANTONIO. YEAH. ALL OF THAT FOR WOULD BE FOR NEW SIGNS WHENEVER SOMEBODY WANTS TO INSTALL A NEW SIGN AND, AND FINDING THAT ADJACENT GRADE AND WHEN IT CAN GO FOR HIGHER THAN HALF. RIGHT. AND WE, BUT WE MAY, IN OTHER WORDS, THEY'RE GONNA BE LIMITED BY THE, WHEREVER THE ADJACENT ROADWAY IS TO EVEN WITH THIS 42 FEET ABOVE, YOU KNOW, SO, SO LET US, BEFORE WE START PICKING THIS ONE TO DEATH, 'CAUSE THIS IS NOT THE FINAL THING, WHY DON'T WE WORK ON THIS, BRING IT BACK THE NEXT MEETING AND ALSO COME WITH SOME EXAMPLES OF PICTURES SO THAT WE CAN SEE WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. I'D ALSO LIKE AN APPROXIMATE NUMBER OF SIGNS, STRUCTURES WE'D BE LOOKING AT. YEAH, WE CAN, WE CAN LOOK AT THAT AND SEE WHAT WE COULD DO. IT'S PROBABLY LESS THAN 50 ALL OVER THE CITY. I MEAN, IF I, ONE MORE THING THAT, THAT SEEMS TO ALWAYS GET LEFT OUTTA HERE, AT LEAST ON MY VERSION, WHAT I HAD WRITTEN WAS THAT UH, ANY OWNER COULD, COULD NOT RAISE MORE THAN THREE SIGNS IN A CALENDAR YEAR. IS THAT, IS THAT STILL OKAY? 'CAUSE I PUT THAT IN SPECIFICALLY. YEAH, NO, YOU KNOW WHAT? I APOLOGIZE. I THINK I JUST DIDN'T GRAB THAT WHEN I, AND I PUT IN THAT SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OF AN UNKNOWN AND I THINK ONE OF YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THAT HEY, IF WE CAN COME BACK AND REVISIT AND THAT'S WHY LIMITED TO THREE A YEAR, NO MORE THAN THAT. THAT WAY IF SOMETHING'S GOING WRONG, SOMEBODY DOESN'T LIKE IT, IT CAN BE REVISITED PRETTY QUICKLY. AND I WANT TO CAUTION ON THE REVISITING, [02:55:01] THIS IS A FIVE YEAR CYCLE, SO YEAH. SO IT'S NOT SO LET'S YOU KNOW, I KNOW IT MIGHT'VE BEEN THROWN AROUND. I JUST THINK IF, IF IT'S THE RIGHT, IF IT'S THE RIGHT RULE, IT'S THE RIGHT RULE AND YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT WHERE YOU KNOW, YOU PUT AN UNDUE BURDEN, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THE NEXT TIME OUT IT'S EITHER RIGHT OR IT'S WRONG. AND IF IT'S WRONG, WE SHOULDN'T PUT IT IN. IF IT'S RIGHT IT, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT. BUT I THINK WE ALSO NEED, AND, AND YOU KNOW, I AM A STRONG PROPERTY, RIGHT? PROPONENT, BUT, BUT I ALSO, YOU KNOW, HAVE A BALANCE BEING A NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION PRESIDENT TO SAY, OKAY, YOU KNOW, THERE NEEDS TO BE EQUITY AND YOU NEED TO FIGURE OUT THE LANGUAGE. THAT'S NOT GONNA LET SOMEBODY WORM AROUND THE RULES. THAT DOESN'T MEET THE INTENT BY, YOU KNOW, ONE QUARTER OF ONE INCH IS OBSTRUCTED AND NOW YOU CAN PUT AN 85 FOOT SIGN UP. THAT'S NOT THE INTENT OF WHAT ANY OF US WANT TO DO. WE, WE JUST WANNA MAKE EVERYBODY, YOU KNOW, BACK TO SQUARE ONE, YOU KNOW, BACK TO THE WAY THEY WERE BEFORE THE HIGHWAY WAS DONE. AND, YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE THAT THE, THE SIGN, YOU KNOW, AS WE LOOK AT IT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE YOU CAN MOVE THE POLE WITHIN 25 FEET BECAUSE IF YOU MOVE THE POLE 25 FEET TOWARDS AWAY FROM THE OBSTRUCTION, IT MAY BE MAKE THE SIGN, YOU KNOW, THERE. BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE PROBLEM NOW IS, IS IF THEY TOUCH THE SIGN, YOU KNOW, THE PERMIT FOR THE SIGN GOES AWAY, WHICH IS NOT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOT EQUITY IN THAT. SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, IF WE, IF WE ALLOW SOME FLEXIBILITY TO, AS TO HOW IT IS DONE, SO IN OTHER WORDS, WOULD I WOULD PREFER A 42 FOOT SIGN AND LET THEM MOVE THAT SIGN 20 FEET FROM, OR 50 FEET FROM WHERE IT IS, YOU KNOW, AND KEEP IT AT 42 FEET RATHER THAN MAKING AN 85 FOOT SIGN. SO, SO I THINK I'LL WORK WITH STAFF TO COME UP WITH A DEFINITION. WE'LL BRING IT BACK TO EVERYBODY. WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO THIS TIME THOUGH, IS I WANT TO SEND THE, WHAT WE DO HERE OUT TO EVERYBODY BEFORE AND SO THAT EVERYBODY CAN MAKE THEIR COMMENTS, YOU KNOW, BACK TO JEREMY AND MAYBE WE CAN WORDSMITH WHAT THE FINAL LANGUAGE IS BEFORE WE BRING IT TO THE MEETING, IF THAT IS OKAY WITH OUR COUNCIL. CAN WE DO THAT? OKAY. YEAH. JUST UH, DEFINITELY BOARD MEMBERS. YEAH. DON'T COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER AN EMAIL. YEAH, NO TALK ABOUT IT. BUT YEAH, Y'ALL CAN SEND SOMETHING TO ME. THAT'S FINE. AS LONG AS YOU DON'T REPLY ALL YOU CAN COMMUNICATE ALL WANT. THAT'S EXACTLY. YEAH. CORRECT. AND I USUALLY TRY TO BLIND COPY EVERYBODY SO THEY DON'T MAKE THAT MISTAKE. YEAH. BUT I DO MESS UP SOMETIMES. I OKAY. GOT A LOT OF EMAILS GOING OUT, . SO IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE JEREMY WE CAN HANDLE LIKE, REAL QUICK? I DON'T THINK SO. OKAY, THEN I'LL ADJOURN THE MEETING. AND SO IN PREPARATION FOR THE NEXT MEETING, UM, I KNOW YOU CHAIR, YOU KINDA ASKED US TO DO A LOT OF THINGS FOR NEXT MEETING. I, I THINK I WANT TO GET A LITTLE BIT MORE TIME 'CAUSE WE ARE GETTING KIND OF RUSHED BETWEEN SOME OF THESE MEETINGS. WE ALSO HAVE A LOT OF STUFF GOING ON. TWO WEEKS. WELL, I'M FINE WITH TWO WEEKS, BUT A LOT OF THE THINGS YOU ASKED US TO DO AND BRING BACK, I DON'T THINK WE'RE GONNA BE READY IN TWO WEEKS. BUT WHAT WE DO HAVE, WE'VE GOT A LOT OF OTHER ITEMS THAT WE HAVEN'T ADDRESSED YET. OKAY. SO WHY DON'T WE DO THOSE? ONE OF IT TIES INTO DIGITAL. SO REALLY WHAT I'M GONNA DO IS DIGITAL SIGNS. THE NEXT ONE WE HAVE OUT FRONT HAS THEIR PRESENTATION THAT THEY WANNA MAKE. AT THE SAME TIME WE ALSO HAVE THE, UH, DARK SKY STUFF THAT I WANNA BRING THEM IN. WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT. WE HAVE COUNCILMAN'S REQUEST TO, UH, LOOK AT REDUCING BRIGHTNESS OR LOOKING AT THAT. SO, YOU KNOW, WE WANT PRESENT FROM INFORMATION AND SO I I WHY DON'T BE FOCUSED ON NEXT MEETING. OKAY? SO TWO WEEKS TWO WEEKS WE'RE GONNA HAVE A MEETING AND WE'RE GONNA DO ALL THAT AND THEN WE'LL LEAVE ALL THIS STUFF TO THE END. BUT WE INDIVIDUALLY, WE CAN BE WORDSMITHING IT TO GET TO A FINAL, UH, LANGUAGE THAT WE WILL PRESENT TO THE WHOLE COMMITTEE. IF YOU HAVE COMMENTS, YOU CAN MAKE IT BACK TO JEREMY. SO CHAIR, JUST TO CONFIRM, SO YOU'RE LOOKING FOR FEB OR JULY 15TH? FRIDAY MORNING AGAIN. UH, I HATE MEETING ON FRIDAY MORNINGS. OKAY, HOLD ON. C CAN YOU DO ME A FAVOR? BECAUSE THERE'S PEOPLE. OKAY. IS EVERYBODY GOOD? FRIDAY THE 15TH, EIGHT 30 IS THE OTHER CHOICE IS HAVING AT ONE O'CLOCK AND BEING HERE TILL 5, 8 30. THE 15, I THINK SEVEN. NO OKAY. MEETING [03:00:01] ADJOURNED. OKAY, WE'LL DO THAT. THANK YOU. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.