* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [00:00:02] GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. WE'RE GOING TO, IF EVERYBODY WILL FIND THEIR SEATS. SO GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. I'D LIKE TO CALL THE MEETING TO ORDER AND I'LL TURN IT OVER TO JEREMY TO DO THE PERFUNCTORY STUFF. GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. SORRY FOR THE DELAYED START. THIS IS JEREMY MCDONALD, DEVELOPMENT SERVICES DEPARTMENT, CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY. THIS IS THE BUILDING RELATED FIRE CODES APPEALS AND ADVISORY BOARD SIGN CODE COMMITTEE. TODAY IS JULY 15TH, 2022. WE'RE CONTINUING OUR DISCUSSION OF UPDATING THE CHAPTER 28 SIGN CODE AND BILLBOARD ORDINANCE FOR THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. UH, WE'LL START OFF WITH AN ANNOUNCEMENT FROM OUR INTERPRETERS. UH, GOOD, GOOD MORNING. MY NAME IS JEAN MARIE NIA. I'M ONE OF THE INTERPRETERS SPANISH INTERPRETERS. LOS. THANK YOU. SO THE FIRST ITEM ON THE AGENDA IS THE APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES FROM, UH, ACTUALLY, SORRY, MARK, WE NEED TO DO A QUICK ROLL CALL. OH, SORRY. NO PROBLEM. ALL RIGHT. ADRIAN CONTES. JOE LAOS. HERE. MARK ROSS. HERE. [00:05:01] MICHAEL RUST. LIDDEL TOY. HERE. PETE SATTERLEY. JACK UP MORE HERE. ALL RIGHT. WE HAVE QUORUM FOR THE APPOINTED MEMBERS FOR THE NON APPOINTED BOARD MEMBER, OR SORRY, COMMITTEE MEMBERS. BIANCA MALDONADO PRESENT. GREG MANN. HERE. COLLEEN BECK. HERE. PATTY ZIONS PRESENT. ALL RIGHT. AND WE HAVE ALL THE NON APPOINTED MEMBERS HERE AS WELL, CHAIR. AND FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO IT'S YOUR FIRST TIME, IT'S KIND OF AN OPEN PROCESS, SO DON'T FEEL INTIMIDATED THAT YOU ARE ON THE COMMITTEE. YOU'RE NOT ON THE COMMITTEE. WE'RE TREATING EVERYBODY LIKE THEY'RE ON THE COMMITTEE UNTIL WE VOTE ON SOMETHING, AND THEN ONLY THE VOTING MEMBERS, UH, WOULD PARTICIPATE. ALRIGHT. UM, ONCE AGAIN, WE ALWAYS TRY TO PUT THIS UP HERE. THESE ARE THE WEBSITES, UH, FOR GETTING RESOURCES ABOUT THE UPDATES TO THIS CHAPTER 28. UH, WHERE TO FIND THE MEETINGS, UH, THE DOWNLOADED MEETINGS OR WATCHING IT LIVE ON THE MEETING RECORDINGS. AND THEN ALSO, IF ANYBODY WOULD LIKE TO PRESENT OR DISCUSS OR PROVIDE ANY INFORMATION TO D S D STAFF IN REGARDS TO THE UPDATE, THEY CAN SEND US SIGNED CODE REVIEW@SANANTONIO.GOV. AND THEN WE'LL FOLLOW AS THE CHAIR STATED, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THIS SPECIFICALLY FOR OPEN COMMENTS, BUT IF THERE'S ANYBODY THAT WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK ABOUT A SPECIFIC AGENDA ITEM. THIS IS A FAIRLY OPEN FORUM, UH, BUT AT THIS TIME, IF THERE'S ANYBODY HERE THAT WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK ABOUT ANY ITEM, UM, OR ANY GENERAL ITEM ABOUT CHAPTER 28. ALRIGHT. OH, I'M SORRY. GO AHEAD. BEFORE WE GO TO THE MINUTES, UM, IF YOU COULD LOOK AT ITEM 24 ON THE SCHEDULE, UH, NINE DASH TWO, WHICH HAD TO CHANGE, DO WITH CHANGING THE DISTANCES. UM, I WITHDREW THAT AT THE MID-JUNE MEETING, AND I, I DID LOOK AT THE VIDEO AND, AND I DID STATE THAT DURING THE MEETING, SO YES, MA'AM. I APPRECIATE THAT. AND I, I REALLY, I, I REMEMBER YOU SAYING THAT, BUT I DID, I DIDN'T WANT TO COMPLETELY PULL IT BECAUSE I KNOW WE WERE KIND OF RUNNING THROUGH IT PRETTY QUICKLY, AND I KNEW A LOT OF THE ITEMS THAT YOU BROUGHT UP WERE IN, ACTUALLY IN RESPONSE TO ANOTHER ITEM. SO I FIGURED, WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, MAYBE WE'LL LISTEN TO THEM, BUT IF YOU WANTED ME TO FORMALLY PULL THAT ONE, I WILL GO AHEAD AND DO THAT. OKAY? YES, MA'AM. ALRIGHT. AND JUST FOR CLARIFICATION, THAT ONE'S ACTUALLY NOT ON THE AGENDA TODAY. THAT'S, THAT'S ON THE LIST OF PROPOSED CHANGES OF THE 30 CHANGES. SO THAT'S, UH, NOT ITEM TODAY. OKAY. OKAY. SO NOW MOVING TO AGENDA ITEM NUMBER ONE. UH, THE APPROVAL, UH, WE MISSED THE APPROVAL OF MINUTES LAST TIME, SO WE NEED TO APPROVE BOTH JUNE 17TH AND JULY 1ST, 2022 MEETING MINUTES FOR THIS COMMITTEE. BEFORE WE GET A MOTION, ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONS OR CORRECTIONS THAT ANYONE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE? CAN WE GET A MOTION FROM A VOTING MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE TO APPROVE THE MINUTES FOR JUNE, JULY 1ST AND JULY AND JUNE 17TH? UH, LIDDEL TOY. UH, MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE MID JULY ONE AND, UH, JUNE 17TH. JACK UP MORE SECOND. ANY DISCUSSION? ALL IN FAVOR, PLEASE SAY AYE. OPPOSE. NAYYY. ABSTENTIONS. MOTION PASSES UNANIMOUSLY. AYE. ALL IN FAVOR? EVERYBODY'S GOOD. AYE. UNANIMOUS. AYE. . THANK YOU CHAIR. UH, THIS IS JUST THE AGENDA ITEM IF WE EVER NEEDED TO ADD ANYBODY, BUT I THINK AT THIS TIME WE'RE GOOD TO GO. UH, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY INTEREST TO ADDING ANYMORE BOARD MEMBERS TO THIS COMMITTEE AT THIS TIME. SO, UH, WE'RE MOVING INTO THE ACT ACTION ITEMS ON THE AGENDA FOR THIS WEEK OR FOR THIS MEETING. UM, I SAY THAT AS I MOVE INTO AN AGENDA ITEM THAT I SPECIFY IS NOT AN, NOT AN ACTION ITEM, BUT I WANT TO GO TO THE CHAIR REAL FAST. I KNOW THERE'S BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF DISCUSSION. DO WE WANT TO MOVE? NO, LET'S JUST, JUST GO THROUGH. OKAY, PERFECT. OKAY. SO WHAT THIS ITEM IS, UH, WAS REQUESTED BY THE COMMITTEE TO REVIEW THREE ORDINANCES THAT WERE USED TO TAKE STATIC SIGNS THROUGHOUT THE CITY BILLBOARDS AND CONVERT THOSE OVER TO DIGITAL PLATFORMS. SO, UH, THE COMMITTEE ASKED ME TO KIND OF GO OVER THOSE THREE ORDINANCE BRIEFLY. UM, I PROVIDED THOSE ORDINANCES, AND I'M HAPPY TO PUT THEM OUT THERE IF THERE'S ANY, ANYBODY THAT WANTS TO SEE THAT AS WELL. UH, BUT THESE ARE THE THREE ORDINANCE. THE FIRST ONE WAS 2007, THEN WE HAD TWO MORE IN 2019. THAT WAS THE CONVERSION OF STATIC BILLBOARDS IN THE CITY TO DIGITAL. SO THE FIRST ONE, AS I SAID, WAS, UH, APPROVED BY CITY COUNCIL ON JUNE, 2007, UH, UNDER ORDINANCE 2007, 12 0 6 1 2 4 7. CITY COUNCIL APPROVED THAT 15 CONVERSIONS OF STATIC BILLBOARDS BE ALLOWED. UH, THEY REQUIRED TO REMOVE SPECIFIC NUMBER OF SIGNS, UH, BY SQUARE FOOTAGE, AND I'LL SHOW YOU A QUICK LITTLE, UH, TABLE FOR THAT. BUT THEY, THEY HAD A LOT OF DETAIL ABOUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO PUT MOSTLY, I THINK THERE'S 672 SQUARE FOOT DIGITAL SIGNS THAT WENT UP IN ORDER TO PUT UP A 672 SQUARE FOOT DIGITAL SIGN, YOU HAD TO REMOVE, UH, A SPECIFIC NUMBER OF SQUARE FOOTAGE OF OTHER SIGNS. AND WHETHER YOU DID THAT BY ONE SIGN, MULTIPLE SIGNS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A TABLE THAT KIND OF SPECIFIES THAT. NOW, WE WON'T GO INTO DETAIL, BUT I'LL SHOW YOU WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE. IT'S ALL WRITTEN OUT INTO THE ORDINANCE, UH, IN, IN PLAIN DETAIL. UM, THEN THE STATIC SIGN THAT IS BEING CONVERTED TO A DIGITAL SIGN WAS NOT INCLUDED IN THAT REMOVED. [00:10:01] SO SPECIFICATION IS, YOU KNOW, THEY SAY YOU, I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT RATIO. THEY SAID LIKE FOUR TO ONE, YOU KNOW, BASED OFF THAT TABLE, THOSE SIGNS HAD TO COME DOWN, THOSE BILLBOARDS HAD TO COME DOWN AS WELL AS THE STRUCTURES. BUT THAT DIDN'T, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, ULTIMATELY WHAT THEY WERE DOING WAS TAKING A STATIC SIGN AND CONVERTING THAT TO A DIGITAL. SO THAT REMOVAL OF SIGNS DID NOT INCLUDE TAKING THAT STATIC WHEN, AND MOVING INTO DIGITAL, YOU COULDN'T USE THAT SQUARE FOOTAGE TO TOWARDS YOUR DIGITAL. SO IT WAS REALLY ALL OF THOSE SIGNS ACTUALLY CAME DOWN. AND THEN, THEN WERE CONVERTED. SO THIS IS, LIKE I SAID, VERY BRIEFLY, I'M NOT GONNA GO INTO DETAIL. UM, THIS WAS WHAT MOSTLY WE USED. THERE WAS ANOTHER TABLE FOR A DIFFERENT SIZE OF DIGITALS, BUT I THINK EVERYTHING THAT WENT UP WAS A 6 72. BUT THIS WAS KIND OF WHAT WAS AGREED UPON. AND, YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE NUMBER OF STRUCTURES THAT NEEDED TO COME DOWN BASED OFF THE SQUARE FOOTAGE OF THOSE STRUCTURES. BUT REALLY ANYBODY THAT WANTED TO GO THROUGH THIS PROCESS HAD TO USE THIS TABLE AND SAY, HERE'S ALL THE SIGNS THAT I'M TAKING DOWN IN, IN REFERENCE TO THIS TABLE TO PUT UP ONE DIGITAL SIGN. SO THE ALLOCATION OF THE 15 APPROVED DIGITAL BILLBOARDS WAS DETERMINED BY MARKET SHARE, AND THAT WAS ALSO SPECIFIED IN THE ORDINANCE. IT KIND OF TALKED ABOUT, UH, BASED OFF OF THAT MARKET SHARE, HOW MANY SIGNS EACH PERS UH, EACH COMPANY COULD HAVE. UH, CLEAR CHANNEL RECEIVED 12 OF THOSE DIGITAL BILLBOARDS. UH, LAMAR RECEIVED ONE OF THOSE DIGITAL BILLBOARDS, AND THE REMAINING TWO INITIAL, UH, INITIALLY WENT UNCLAIMED. SO TO SPECIFY WHAT IT WAS IS, UM, BY MARKET SHARE CLEAR CHANNEL HAD 12 OPPORTUNITIES. UH, THE OTHER THREE WERE KIND OF MORE IT AT THAT POINT. THE MARKET SHARE WAS KIND OF DIVIDED UP SO MUCH THAT, UH, ANYBODY WOULD COME AND APPLY. SO IT WAS KIND OF A OPEN AT THAT TIME. AND REALLY THE ONLY ONLY COMPANY THAT CAME FORWARD, UH, DURING THIS INITIAL ORDINANCE WAS LAMAR. AND THEY SAID, WE WANT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ONE OF THOSE. SO ULTIMATELY, 13 SIGNS WENT UP, OR WERE GOING TO GO UP INTO THIS DIGITAL BILLBOARD APPROVAL. SO ACROSS THAT, THAT ULTIMATELY RESULTED IN 25,122 SQUARE FEET OF SIGNS, UH, REMOVED ACROSS 161 FACES OR SIGN FACES AND 83, UH, BILLBOARD STRUCTURES. SO IF THEY WERE DUAL FACE, UH, BOTH SIDES OF THE STRUCTURE, SOMETIMES THAT'S WENT DOWN. THAT'S WHY WE SEE LESS NUMBER OF STRUCTURES THAN FACES, UM, BE, BUT THE RESULT OF THAT WAS 8,442 SQUARE FEET OF DIGITAL SIGNS WAS INSTALLED ACROSS 13 FACE, UH, WITH NO NEW BILLBOARD STRUCTURE. SO EVERY ONE OF THOSE WAS TAKING A STATIC BILLBOARD AND CONVERTING IT TO DIGITAL. NO NEW STRUCTURES WENT UP UNDER THIS ORDINANCE. SO THAT WAS ALL COMPLETED BACK IN 2007. UM, AFTER THAT, NO MORE ORDINANCES WERE APPROVED UNTIL, UH, SEPTEMBER, 2019. UH, THIS UNDER 20 19 0 9 12 0 7 8, UH, COUNSEL APPROVED THE EXISTING SINGLE-SIDED DIGITAL BILLBOARDS TO BE CONVERTED TO DOUBLE-SIDED DIGITALS. UH, ONCE AGAIN, THIS'S REQUIRED TO REMOVE, UH, FOUR SQUARE FEET OF STATIC SIGN FACE FOR EACH SQUARE FOOT OF DIGITAL SIGN FACE INSTALLED. SO INSTEAD OF HAVING THAT MORE ELABORATE DETAILED TABLE, IT WAS MORE OF A GIVE FOUR FOR ONE. SO TAKE OUT FOUR STATIC INSTALL AND YOU CAN HAVE ONE DIGITAL. UH, ALL OF THOSE TAKE DOWNS HAD TO BE DONE BEFORE WE WOULD ISSUE A DIGITAL ASSIGNED PERMIT. SO WE HAD TO HAVE VERIFICATION, WHICH INCLUDED A LIST OF ALL THE DIGITAL BILL OR ALL THE STATIC BILLBOARDS THAT WOULD COME DOWN. WE WENT OUT AND WE VERIFIED THAT THOSE WERE REMOVED, UH, THROUGH A DEMO, UH, DEMOLITION PERMIT. AND THEN WE ISSUED THE, THE PERMIT TO APPROVE OF THE NEW DIGITAL SIGN. UH, AND ONCE AGAIN, AS SIMILAR, THE, THE TAKE DOWN OF FOUR TO ONE STATIC DID NOT INCLUDE THE, THE SIGN FACE THAT WAS COMING DOWN TO BE CONVERTED. SO THAT WAS STILL IN ADDITION TO, UH, THE, THE STATIC SIGN COMING DOWN. UM, IN ADDITION TO THIS, THIS IS SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT AND I WANT TO CLARIFY. SO THE 2007 ONE DIDN'T HAVE ANY SPECIFICATIONS ON WHERE SCIENCE HAD TO COME DOWN OUT. IT WAS REALLY JUST ACROSS THE BOARD. SHOW ME SOME SQUARE FOOTAGES COMING DOWN ANYWHERE IN THE CITY, AND YOU GOT YOUR CL UH, YOUR APPROVAL. THIS ONE HAD STIPULATIONS THAT IN, IN ADDITION TO THE TH UH, THE FOUR TO ONE ONE OF THOSE, UH, FOUR TO ONES, UH, 672 SQUARE FOOT SIZE SIGN HAD TO COME DOWN IN ONE OF THE PROTECTED CORRIDORS. AND WE KIND OF WENT OVER THAT PREVIOUSLY. I'VE SENT THAT INFORMATION OUT AND I'VE SHOWN YOU THE OVERLAYS WHERE YOU CAN SEE THAT. BUT WE HAVE THE URBAN CORRIDOR SCENIC CORRIDORS, UH, NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATIONS PROTECTED HISTORICAL AREAS. SO KIND OF THEY COULD CHOOSE ANY OF THOSE. IT DIDN'T HAVE TO BE IN AN AREA CLOSE TO THE DIGITAL SIGN THAT THEY WANTED CONVERTED. THEY REALLY JUST HAD TO SAY, I HAVE A SIGN OVER HERE AND A PROTECTED AREA THAT'S NOT ALLOWED ANYMORE. I'M GONNA PULL THIS ONE DOWN. AND IT HAD TO BE A HUNDRED, UH, 672 SQUARE FOOT STRUCTURE, WHICH IS EQUIVALENT TO THE DIGITAL SIGN. UH, THE OTHER SIGNS COULD BE SMALLER SIGNS THAT ACCUMULATED TO THAT FOUR TO ONE, AND THAT 672 WAS PART OF THE FOUR TO ONE. SO IT WASN'T LIKE IN YOUR, IN ADDITION TO THE FOUR TO ONE, YOU HAD TO TAKE DOWN THE 672 IN THE PROTECTED AREA. YOU USED THAT TOWARDS IT. BUT THEY DID JUST SPECIFY THAT IT HAD TO COME DOWN IN THOSE, UH, SPECIFIC AREAS. UM, NO OTHER LOCATION REQUIREMENTS FOR REMAINING STATIC SIGNS. SO AS I WAS SAYING, YOU KNOW, THOSE, IT WAS ONE BIG SIGN, 1 6 70 OR 672 IN A PROTECTED AREA, ONLY AT THE REST ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE CITY THAT, UH, THEY HAD INVENTORY. ADDITIONALLY, IN COMPANY INSTALLING THE DIGITAL SIGN MUST, UH, REMOVE ANY PERMANENT SIZE ASSEMBLY WITHIN THE CITY THAT IS 100 100 SQUARE FOOT OR LESS. SO THAT'S NOT IN ADDITION OR THAT'S KIND OF IN ADDITION TO THE SQUARE FOOTAGE THEY HAD TO TAKE DOWN AS KIND OF AN AGREEMENT. YOU KNOW WHAT, LET'S GET RID OF ALL THESE JUNIOR SIGNS ACROSS THE CITY. [00:15:02] SO BASED OFF OF THIS, UH, CLEAR CHANNEL CONVERTED NINE OF THEIR ORIGINAL 12 DIGITAL SCIENCE TO DUAL FACE. THEY ORIGINALLY WERE ASKING FOR ALL 13. UM, AND TIM DEFINITELY LET ME KNOW IF I MISSED THE STATE ANYWHERE HERE. BUT TWO SIGNS WERE APPROVED BY THE CITY, UH, TO BE CONVERTED, BUT DENIED BY THE STATE. AND WE ARE, YOU KNOW, ADDRESSING THAT HOPEFULLY UNDER THIS, UH, UPDATE. UM, THE OTHER ONE IS ONE SIGN WAS DENIED BY THE CITY DUE TO THE REQUIREMENTS TO RE-ENGINEER THE EXISTING BILLBOARD STRUCTURE. THAT KIND OF WENT AGAINST THE OTHER ORDINANCE OF THE CHAPTER 28 OF ALLOWING MODIFICATIONS TO AN EXISTING STRUCTURE. SO BASED OFF THE SIGNIFICANCE THAT NEEDED TO BE DONE IN ORDER TO, TO HANDLE THE, THE WEIGHT AND DESIGN OF THE DIGITAL SIGN, THE CITY DID DENY THAT ONE. UH, ULTIMATELY FROM THAT PROCESS IN INSTALLING THE NEW NINE CLEAR CHANNEL REMOVE 31 BILLBOARD STRUCTURES AND 278 JUNIOR BOARDS ACROSS THE CITY, LAMAR WAS ALSO PART OF THIS. THEY CONVERTED THE ORIGINAL DIGITAL SIGN. SO THEY HAD ONE FROM THE OTHER ONE TO A DUAL FACE. THEY REMOVED TWO BILLBOARD STRUCTURES. ALL DEMOLITIONS WERE CON UH, CONFIRMED PRIOR TO EXISTING, UH, ISSUING DIGITAL SIGN INSTALLATION PERMITS. AND I WANT TO UNDERSTAND, SO IT'S A FOUR TO ONE SQUARE FOOTAGE, A BILLBOARD STRUCTURE. THIS ONE, THESE WERE DUAL FACES. SO THEY TOOK DOWN FOUR, UM, STATIC FACES ACROSS TWO BILLBOARD STRUCTURES TO GET THEIR FOUR TO ONE. AND ONE OF THOSE WAS IN A PROTECTED AREA. UH, BOARD BILLBOARDS REMOVED, UH, FROM ALL OF THESE. SO WE REMOVED FOUR FROM SCENIC CORRIDORS, TWO FROM METROPOLITAN OVERLAYS, ONE, UH, FOUR FROM GATEWAY CORRIDORS, AND ONE FROM AN UH, N C D. SO OF THE 13 SIGNS THAT WENT UP AND AS CLEAR CHANNEL HAS MENTIONED EARLIER IN THESE MEETINGS, SO THAT THEY DID GET APPROVAL FOR ALL 12 OF THEIRS ORIGINALLY, BUT THEY HAVEN'T TAKEN DOWN THOSE STATIC SIGNS. AND SOME OF THE OTHER ONES, I'M NOT SURE WHAT MIGHT BE OUT THERE, BUT I KNOW THEY HAVE TAKEN DOWN CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF THE ONES THAT THEY WERE ORIGINALLY APPROVED TO TAKE DOWN FOR THOSE DIGITAL SCIENCE. THEY DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO PUT UP BECAUSE OF THE STATE ORDINANCE OR THE STATE, UH, ATION SYSTEM. JEREMY, CAN YOU, UH, TELL EVERYBODY WHAT N C D STANDS FOR? UM, I'M GONNA PROBABLY, IT'S A NEIGHBORHOOD CONSERVATION DISTRICT. DISTRICT. OKAY. THANK. SO THOSE ARE ANYTIME A NEIGHBORHOOD WANTS TO COME IN AND KIND OF DIC DICTATE OR SET UP REQUIREMENTS FOR THAT AREA AND, YOU KNOW, HIGHLIGHT THEM, IT KIND OF TURNS IT INTO A, A PROTECTED AREA THAT THE NEIGHBORHOOD KIND OF DETERMINES WHAT'S ALLOWED AND WHAT'S NOT ALLOWED. IN CONJUNCTION WITH THIS OUT FRONT, UH, WHO DIDN'T ORIGINALLY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF, UH, THE 27, UH, THE 2007 ORDINANCE, UH, CAME IN, REQUESTED THAT THEY GET ONE OF THE ORIGINAL 15 COUPONS AND MAKE IT A DUAL FACE. SO KIND OF A HYBRID OF THE FIRST TWO ORDINANCES THEY CAME IN AT ABOUT THE SAME TIME, UH, THAT WAS APPROVED BY CITY COUNCIL UNDER, UH, ON NOVEMBER, 2019. A COUPLE MONTHS AFTER THE ONE FOR CLEAR CHANNEL LAMAR ORDINANCE WAS 2019 ZERO, UH, 11 0 7 0 9 10 FRONT CONVERTING AN EXISTING BILLBOARD TO A DUAL FACE DIGITAL BILLBOARD. UH, EIGHT BILLBOARD STRUCTURES WERE REMOVED, INCLUDING ONE FROM A GATEWAY CORRIDOR. SO THAT'S IN ADDITION TO THE ONES THAT WE DISCUSSED EARLIER FOR THE OTHER ORDINANCE. SO WE ALSO HAD A GATEWAY CORRIDOR COME DOWN AND THAT WAS A FULL BILLBOARD STRUCTURE. SO THAT IS EVERYTHING ON THOSE THREE ORDINANCES TO COMMITTEE. HAVE ANY QUESTIONS I CAN HELP ANSWER? I JUST HAD ONE COMMENT AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE WHEN YOU GO BACK TO YOUR SHE IS, YEAH, , SORRY. CLOSER. BETTER, YES MA'AM. IF YOU GO BACK TO YOUR SLIDE WHERE IT TALKS ABOUT THE REMOVAL THAT CLEAR CHANNEL DID IN THE OVERLAY. SO IN THE METROPOLITAN OVERLAYS, THE ONE, SO THAT'S, I'M ASSUMING THE URBAN CORRIDORS, IS THAT THERE WAS ONE THAT WAS REMOVED ON A LANDMARK PROPERTY IN A HISTORIC DISTRICT IN, AND IT'S IN THAT OVERLAY. SO I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE BECAUSE IT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE WOODLAWN THEATER IS WHERE IT WAS REMOVED ACROSS THE STREET FROM IT AND A LANDMARK PROPERTY TOO, WHICH WAS SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU REALLY STRIVE FOR WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS. I THINK THE METROPOLITAN OVERLAY KIND OF DISMISSES THE INTEGRITY OF THAT REMOVAL IN THAT AREA. SO I JUST WANTED TO POINT THAT OUT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I APPRECIATE THAT INFORMATION. OKAY. IS THERE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR JEREMY ON THIS? JEREMY, YOU'RE NOT, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE'RE BEING PRESENTED THIS. ARE ARE THERE OPTIONS FOR CHANGES TO THIS INSIDE THIS? NO, THIS WAS JUST FOR, BECAUSE WE'RE DOING A WHOLE LOT OF CONVERSATIONS ABOUT DIGITAL SIGNS, UM, BOTH ON-PREMISE AND OFF-PREMISE. COMMITTEE MEMBERS ASK THAT. I JUST KIND OF GIVE 'EM A BRIEF UPDATE ON THAT PROCESS. AND THERE ARE ITEMS PERTAINING TO THE, THE 2000, UH, 7 19 1 FOR CLEAR CHANNEL. 'CAUSE THEY ARE TRYING TO GET THE TWO THAT THE STATE, UH, DISAPPROVED. THEY'RE TRYING TO LOOK AT WAYS THAT, UH, WE CAN WORK TO GET THOSE ULTIMATELY APPROVED, UH, UNDER THIS COMMITTEE AS WELL. SO, BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S UNDER THE PURVIEW OF THE COMMITTEE IF IT WANTS TO MAKE A RECOMMENDATION TO CONTINUE THE PROCESS OF ALLOWING DIGITAL IN RETURN FOR TAKING DOWN, UH, MORE SIGNS THAT WOULD COME UNDER THAT. AND WE MAKE IT TO THAT DISCUSSION PROBABLY AT THE END OF THE DAY, I'M ASSUMING COMPANIES WOULD STILL LIKE TO CONVERT TO DIGITAL AND I'M ASSUMING THERE ARE CITIZENS THAT WOULD LIKE MORE BILLBOARDS TAKEN DOWN [00:20:01] AND, YOU KNOW, IT BECOMES, YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY A MONEY ISSUE. YOU KNOW, STATIC SIGNS PRODUCE X NUMBER OF DOLLARS, DIGITAL PRODUCE THIS, AND YOU KNOW, THERE'S GOING TO BE THAT TRADE OUT. AND SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE MAY BEGIN, YOU KNOW, IN ADDITION TO A FEW OTHER WORKING GROUPS WE'RE GONNA HAVE OR APPOINT, WE MAY ALSO APPOINT A WORKING GROUP TO HAVE THAT DISCUSSION TO SAY OKAY, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, MY RECOLLECTION AND YOU KNOW, AS I NOW AM OFFICIALLY A SENIOR CITIZEN, YOU KNOW, BACK, BACK, UH, YOU KNOW, UM, WHEN THE FIRST ORDINANCE WAS PASSED, THERE WAS A WHOLE LOT OF HOOPLA ABOUT DIGITAL SIGNS BEING DANGEROUS AND CAUSING, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE GONNA CAUSE MORE ACCIDENTS. AND THAT WAS KIND OF THE BUZZ THAT WAS GOING ON IN THE NEWSPAPER AND THE NEWSPAPER REPORTING. I THINK, YOU KNOW, OVER TIME IT'S BEEN PROVEN THAT IT REALLY DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND THEN IT'S JUST PREFERENCE IS DIGITAL, YOU KNOW, MORE APPEALING. BUT YOU KNOW, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AS A CITIZEN, IF YOU CAN CREATE ALWAYS A WIN-WIN SITUATION FOR EVERYBODY AND WE GET LESS BILLBOARDS COMPLETELY, AND IF EVEN IF THEY WERE ALL DIGITAL SIGNS, THAT MAY BE BETTER. AND SO I THINK THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION AND AT SOME POINT, UH, AND I MAY DO IT, YOU KNOW, IN BETWEEN NOW AND THE NEXT MEETING IS JUST A POINT OR CONVENE A STAKEHOLDER, WHAT I CALL WORK GROUP TO JUST SIT AND HAVE A DISCUSSION AND SEE IF THEY CAN COME TO SOME, YOU KNOW, MEETING OF THE MINDS. AND THEN WE'LL BRING THAT, WHATEVER THAT MEETING OF THE MINDS FORWARD TO THIS COMMITTEE TO HAVE A DISCUSSION IN DETAIL ABOUT IT. IS THAT OKAY WITH EVERYONE? I DON'T, ARE YOU SAYING BILLBOARDS WOULD BE INCLUDED IN THAT DISCUSSION? YEAH, NO, THIS IS NOT, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE, THE LIDDELL'S DEAL ON HO I'M TALKING ABOUT A SEPARATE DISCUSSION ABOUT CONVERSION OF MORE BILLBOARDS TO DIGITAL AND RETURN FOR THEM TAKING DOWN A WHOLE BUNCH MORE BILLBOARDS. AND SO WE CAN HAVE THAT DISCUSSION AND IF THERE'S NO APPETITE FOR IT, WE'LL JUST LEAVE IT ALONE. AND IF THERE IS, YOU KNOW, WE WILL HAVE A DISCUSSION. OKAY. NEXT ITEM. ALRIGHT. ANY, WELL, HERE, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ON AGENDA ITEM THREE? I JUST HAD ONE CLARIFICATION. WHY DID THE STATE DENY THAT ONE BILLBOARD FOR TO CLEAR CHANNEL? WHY DID THEY DENY YEAH. FACING ISSUES. FACING ISSUES? WELL, AND AND TO THAT POINT, YOU KNOW, I WOULD ACTUALLY, I'M SORRY, I MISSPOKE, MISSPOKE. THEY, AND ONE OF THE REASONS WE'RE ASKING FOR THE CERTIFICATION ISSUE THAT'S GONNA COME UP IS THE STATE LITERALLY CHANGED AN INTERPRETATION OF THEIR OWN RULE. WE LITERALLY SUBMITTED THE PERMIT TO THE STATE AND THEY DENIED IT. AND I, WE ASKED WHY WE'VE DONE THIS A THOUSAND TIMES IN THE PAST. WELL, WE'RE READING OUR RULE DIFFERENTLY, SO I CANNOT GET THE NECESSARY STATE PERMIT TO GO WITH THE CITY PERMIT TO CHANGE THAT OUT. AND THEY CITE BECAUSE OF DISTANCE. IS THAT NO, I I I WHAT'S THE INTERPRETATION OF THE, IT WASN'T DISTANCE. IT WAS A, UH, AN INTERPRETATION OF, I'LL TAKE YOU DOWN A RABBIT HOLE IF YOU REALLY WANT TO GO, BUT IT'S AN INTERPRETATION OF THAT SIGN. I WANTED TO REPLACE SOMETHING ON THAT SIGN. THE STATE SAID, NO, YOU CAN'T REPLACE THIS UNLESS YOU TAKE THE ENTIRE SIGN DOWN. I'VE GOTTA LITERALLY TAKE IT AND PUT IT RIGHT BACK UP THE HOLD STRUCTURE. AND WE JUST WENT, NO, . YEAH, AND THAT'S FOR TWO OF THOSE WITH THE STATE. SO TWO OF THE WERE STATE ONE FROM THE CITY. THANK YOU KELLY. EXCUSE ME. SO THAT WAS BASICALLY A MAINTENANCE ISSUE. THEY DETERMINED THAT THAT DIDN'T FALL UNDER WHAT WAS PERMITTED. AND YOU WOULD HAVE TO REPLACE THE STRUCTURE, MA'AM. YEAH, NOT AT ALL. AGAIN, STATE RULES, I'M, I'M NOT GONNA BORE YOU WITH IT, BUT WHAT THEY HAD INTERPRETED EARLIER WAS THAT IF WE SUBMITTED A SPECIFIC TYPE OF PERMIT, WE COULD JUST TAKE THE OLD FACE OFF AND PUT A NEW DIGITAL ON. NO PROBLEM. THEY REINTERPRETED THEIR RULE TO SAY, NO, YOU MUST REMOVE THE ENTIRE SIGN, THE POLL, EVERYTHING FOR, AND, AND IT, IT WAS NOTHING BUT A BUREAUCRATIC DECISION AND WE APPEALED IT AND THEY SAID, THAT'S THE WAY WE INTERPRET IT. YEAH. OKAY. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? ITEM FOUR. ALRIGHT. UH, SO ITEM FOUR IS SPONSORED BY DIANA DAVIS AND I THINK SHE HAS A PRESENTATION, UH, TO, FOR THE COMMITTEE. SO DIANA, IF YOU WANT TO, DIANE, IF YOU WANT TO COME AND PRESENT. DAWN. DAWN, I APOLOGIZE. I'M SORRY. DON , I APOLOGIZE. [00:25:02] DO YOU WANT ME TO COME HERE? UM, IT'S UP TO YOU. IF YOU'RE HAPPY DOWN THERE, I CAN, I'LL SET UP YOURS. SO WHICHEVER YOU PREFER. IF YOU HAVE SLIDES, JUST TELL 'EM NEXT SLIDE AND THEY'LL, UH, SO MY NAME IS DAWN DAVIES. I'M THE NIGHT SKY PROGRAM. OKAY. YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO PRESS NO, NO, YOU HAVE TO PRESS AND HOLD. UH, SO MY NAME IS DAWN DAVIES. I'M THE NIGHT SKY PROGRAM MANAGER FOR THE HILL COUNTRY ALLIANCE. AND WE ARE SUBMITTING, UM, SOME SUGGESTIONS, AMENDMENTS TO THE SIGN CODE. SPECIFIC TO, YEAH. CAN YOU MOVE THE MIC? DO YOU HAVE A GREEN LIGHT ON YOUR MIC? I DO, YES. OKAY, PROBLEM. DON'T GO UP THERE. GO. YOU'RE WELCOME TO COME SIT, SIT AT THE TABLE. IS THAT BETTER? OKAY. SO WE'LL START OVER. MY NAME IS DAWN DAVIES. I'M THE NIGHT SKY PROGRAM MANAGER FOR HILL COUNTRY ALLIANCE. UH, SO BRIEF OVERVIEW. HILL HILL COUNTRY ALLIANCE IS A CONSERVATION NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION, UH, HERE IN CENTRAL TEXAS AREA. AND WE WORK ACROSS VARIOUS, UH, PROGRAM AREAS OF LAND, WATER, COMMUNITY AND NIGHT SKY CONSERVATION. SO, UH, IF YOU WANNA GO TO THE NEXT SLIDE. SO THE AMENDMENTS WE'VE SUBMITTED, WHILE THEY MAY HAVE SEEMED A LITTLE, UH, INTENSE OR, OR ACTUALLY NOT AS IN DEPTH, UH, AS THEY MAY HAVE SEEN, WHAT WE ARE PROPOSING ARE CHANGES TO THE STATEMENT OF PURPOSE TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION NIGHT SKY PRESERVATION. UH, WE ARE LOOKING AT, UH, CONSIDERATION THROUGH THE REST OF THE, THE CODE TO PUT AN EMPHASIS ON LOWERING THE COLOR CORRELATED TEMPERATURE OF THE ILLUMINATED LIGHTING, UM, AND EXTERIOR LIGHTING THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH THIS. SO IT'S LOOKING AT, UH, MANAGING GLARE UNDER LIGHT, BACK LIGHT, WHICH IS THAT BUG RATING YOU SEE THERE ON, UH, THE SECOND, THIRD ENTRY. UM, AND MAINLY JUST TRYING TO MITIGATE ILLUMINATION AND LUMINANCE FOR THE SAKE OF WILDLIFE, THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT, THE IMPACT IT HAS ON HUMAN HEALTH. ALL ASPECTS RELATED TO, YOU KNOW, BIRD MIGRATION. PRETTY MUCH EVERY LIVING CREATURE IS AFFECTED BY LIGHT POLLUTION IN ONE MANNER OR ANOTHER. YOU WANNA GO TO THE NEXT SLIDE AND IT'S JUST A CONTINUATION. MOST OF THE LANGUAGE IS ACTUALLY THE SAME ACROSS THE BOARD. SO IT'S FULL CUTOFF BEING REQUESTED, MAKING SURE THAT ANY SORT OF ILLUMINATION ON THESE LIGHTS ARE FACING DOWN AND IS MEETING THAT COLOR CORRELATED TEMPERATURE OF 3000 KELVIN. GO TO THE NEXT SLIDE. WHAT MAY HAVE SEEMED LIKE AN OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF INFORMATION THAT WE HAD ADDED IS FOR THE MOST PART DEFINITION OF THE LANGUAGE, LANGUAGE THAT, UH, SUPPORTS THE AMENDMENTS THAT WE ARE SUGGESTING. UM, AND IT'S THIS ALSO CONSISTENTLY THE SAME LANGUAGE THAT'S BEING UTILIZED RIGHT NOW DURING THE U D C PROCESS IN WHICH WE HAVE PROPOSED AMENDMENTS TO THE MILITARY LIGHTING OVERLAY DISTRICT, WHICH ALSO ONCE PASSED WILL MEET THAT SAME REQUIREMENT OF 3000 KELVIN FOR EXTERIOR LIGHTING. GO AHEAD. YOU CAN GO TO NEXT. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE CURRENT REQUIREMENT IS? I'M SORRY, CHAIR. CURRENT REQUIREMENT FOR CHAPTER 28 WHEN IT COMES TO KELVIN? YES. THERE IS NO REFERENCE TO KELVIN IN CHAPTER 28. SO THE ONLY REFERENCE TO KELVIN UNDER SIGNS WOULD BE UNDER THE 35 M L O D, UH, WHICH CURRENTLY, UH, THREE MILE RADIUS AROUND ANY INSTITUTION UNDER THE M L O D WOULD BE 3000 KELVIN. UH, THREE TO FIVE MILES WOULD BE 4,100 MM-HMM. . BUT AS DON IS SAYING THAT THEY'RE LOOKING TO AMEND THAT TO WHERE THE FULL FIVE MILE RADIUS, UM, IS 3000 KELVINS. IS THAT CORRECT, DON? THAT IS CORRECT. THE ONLY ACTUALLY VARIATION IN THAT WITH THE, UH, WITH REGARDS TO CHAPTER 35 IS CONSIDERATION DURING, WITHIN THE FIVE MILE RANGE FOR ALL NIGHT SECURITY LIGHTS AND STREET LIGHTING THAT ARE ONLY MANAGED BY C P SS, WE HAVE AGREED TO, UH, MAINTAIN THAT AT THE 4,000 KELVIN THAT THEY'VE REQUESTED FOR SECURITY AND SAFETY PURPOSES. GO AHEAD AND GO TO THE NEXT SLIDE. MOSTLY, MOST OF THIS IS JUST FURTHER INFORMATION, UM, SUPPORTING THE RE RECOMMENDATIONS WE'RE MAKING BASED ON INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY ASSOCIATION GUIDELINES AND ALSO, UH, THE ILLUMINATING ENGINEERING SOCIETY OF AMERICA. ALRIGHT, WE CAN KEEP GOING. UM, ARE YOU ONLY REQUESTING THESE CHANGES WITHIN THE DARK SKY AREAS, LIKE UNDER THE MILITARY ORDINANCE OR FOR THE WHOLE CITY? SO WITHIN WHAT WE ARE ACCOMPLISHING WITHIN THE U D C, THAT IS JUST RESTRICTED TO THE MILITARY REGIONS ONE AND TWO, THOSE BUFFER ZONES [00:30:01] SURROUNDING THE MILITARY INSTALLATIONS, THE SIGN CODE AMENDMENTS WE'RE SUGGESTING WOULD BE CITYWIDE. OKAY. THANK YOU. UH, LET'S SEE. YOU CAN GO AND KEEP GOING. UM, THIS IS JUST SORT OF ANCILLARY. SO THIS JUST GIVES AN IDEA OF THE LIGHT POLLUTION MAPPING THAT'S BEEN CONDUCTED SO FAR. FOR THE MOST PART, THE LANGUAGE YOU UTILIZE IS AORTAL SCALE. IT'S A ONE TO NINE SCALE RANGE. SO FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU'VE EVER BEEN TO REALLY DARK SKIES, FOR INSTANCE, BIG BEND, UH, NATIONAL PARK, THAT'S WHAT CONSTITUTES AORTAL ONE, NO LIGHT POLLUTION WHATSOEVER. WHEREAS IN SOMEPLACE LIKE LET'S SAY DOWNTOWN MANHATTAN, IT'S GONNA BE A NINE, YOU MIGHT BE LUCKY TO SEE THE MOON. THAT'S ABOUT IT. UM, AND THIS GIVES A, A BRIEF OVERVIEW OF WHAT SAN ANTONIO IS LOOKING LIKE RIGHT NOW AS IT IS. UM, AND ONE OF THE BENEFITS OF MAKING THESE IMPROVEMENTS, UH, NOT ONLY TO THE U D C CODE, BUT ALSO TO THE SIGN CODE, IS THAT WHILE IT BENEFITS THE RESIDENTS AND THE PEOPLE OF SAN ANTONIO, UH, WE ARE ALSO WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH THE CAMP BULL OF SENTINEL LANDSCAPE CORE TEAM WITH A NIGHT SKY, UH, THANK YOU WITH A NIGHT SKY PRESERVATION COMMITTEE, UH, BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF HINDRANCE, THE OVERALL ARTIFICIAL LIGHT AND AMBIENT GLOW FROM, UH, THE DOWNTOWN AREA CAUSES HAVOC WITH REGARDS TO THEIR NIGHTTIME TRAINING. SO THEY'RE ACTUALLY COMPLETELY INCAPABLE WITHIN CAMP BOLAS TO OPERATE IN THE SOUTH, SOUTHEAST AND SOUTHWEST SECTIONS OF THE MILITARY FACILITIES. SO WITH A RECENT DESIGNATION OF THE CAMP BOLA SENT LANDSCAPE, WE'RE WORKING TO NOT ONLY IMPROVE THAT FOR THEM, BUT ALSO IMPROVE THE, THE SURROUNDING AREAS THAT INCLUDE BOTH BEXAR COUNTY, UH, KENDALL COUNTY, KOALA COUNTY, UM, AND THE ENTIRETY OF THE LANDSCAPE DESIGNATED AREA, WHICH IS JUST SHORT OF A MILLION ACRES IN TOTAL. LAST SIDE. AND THIS IS THE WORKING GROUP SO FAR THAT HAS BEEN SUPPORTING THESE AMENDMENTS, UH, BOTH FOR THE SIGN CODE AMENDMENT AND ALSO FOR U D C. SO WE HAVE REPRESENTATION BOTH IN THE, UH, NIGHT SKIES COMMUNITY, BUT ALSO WITH MILITARY REPRESENTATION AND, UH, REPRESENTATION AT THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE LEVEL AS WELL. WHY DON'T YOU, ANY QUESTIONS? WHY DON'T YOU STAY UP? SO MY FIRST QUESTION IS, IS WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE LIGHT POLLUTION IS SIGN CAUSED? WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE LIGHT POLLUTION IS CAUSED BY SIGN VERSUS OTHER? THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION AND I WELL, BUT BEFORE YOU'RE GONNA MAKE A CHANGE TO LIMIT EVERYBODY'S CITIZEN'S, RIGHT? TO PUT UP A SIGN AND WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO AND, AND HOW VISIBLE IT IS AT NIGHT. YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY NEEDS TO MAKE A DETERMINATION AS TO IF, IF YOU'RE DEALING WITH 1% OF THE LIGHT POLLUTION AND, AND, AND IT DOESN'T REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE EITHER WAY IN THE OVERALL LIGHT. SO YOU TURN EVERY SIGN OFF IN THE CITY, YOU KNOW, MAKE 'EM ALL DARK AT NIGHT, YOU KNOW, DOES IT REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE? SO DO YOU ALL HAVE ANY INFORMATION THAT TALKS ABOUT WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE SIGN OR THE LIGHT POLLUTION IS CAUSED BY SIGNS VERSUS, YOU KNOW, OUTDOOR LIGHTING OR, UH, YOU KNOW, SECURITY LIGHTS IN PARKING LOTS OR THINGS LIKE THAT? I CAN DEFINITELY DO A DEEPER DIVE AND SEE IF THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'RE ABLE TO QUANTIFY. UM, BUT REALLY THAT WOULD INVOLVE ALMOST WHAT YOU SAID, TURNING, TURNING OFF ALL THE LIGHTS THAT PERTAIN TO EXTERIOR ILLUMINATED SIGNAGE AND THEN TAKING METERED READINGS ACROSS THE CITY AND THEN EXTRAPOLATING THAT DATA FROM THE STANDARD AMBIENT LIGHT THAT WE RECEIVE, YOU KNOW, IN THE DATA METRICS THAT ARE, ARE, WERE SHOWED UP ON THAT MAP. UM, BUT I CAN, I CAN TELL YOU THAT. SO, SO YOU'RE PRESENTING A SOLUTION THAT YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CLUE WHETHER OR NOT IT'S GONNA MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE AT ALL? I CAN TELL YOU RIGHT NOW THAT IT'S MAKING A DIFFERENCE. ANY ILLUMINATED SIGN THAT EXCEEDS THAT 3000 KELVIN THAT IS SHINING ANY AMOUNT OF LIGHT ABOVE THE 90 DEGREE HORIZON LINE IS CAUSING AN ISSUE. HOW, HOW MUCH? 1%. HALF A PERCENT. TWO, 5%, 10%. WELL, ANY LIGHT THAT IS ABOVE THAT 90 DEGREE HORIZON LINE EXTERIOR LIGHT ABOVE 3000 KELVIN, THAT IS NOT PROPERLY SHIELDED IS CAUSING AN ISSUE. ANDREW, PLEASE. BUT WHAT YOU'RE ASKING IS A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN I THINK, AT LEAST I KNOW, I HAVE THE CAPABILITY OF DETERMINING WITH, WITHOUT GOING AND INSPECTING AND LITERALLY GETTING DATA ON EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL EXTERIOR LIGHT THAT YOU HAVE ENTIRE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO WITH REGARDS [00:35:01] TO SIGNAGE. OKAY. MAJORITY OF THE SIGNS THAT ARE NOT DIGITAL, ALL THE SIGNS ARE NOT DIGITAL, HAVE A FACE COVERING SO THEY'RE NOT JUST OPEN MM-HMM. . SO THEY'RE ALREADY SHIELDED BY, ITS BY, BY NA BY ITS NATURE OF A SIGN. MOST DIGITAL SIGNS, I THINK NOT ALL OF THEM NOWADAYS HAVE A LITTLE, LIKE A LITTLE LOUVRE ABOVE EACH L E D ROW. MM-HMM. THAT BLOCKS THE LIGHT FROM FLASHING ABOVE THE 90 DEGREE THAT WAS TAKEN CARE OF WHEN THE MILITARY LIGHTING OVERLAY DISTRICT FIRST CAME INTO PLAY WHEN THEY FIRST DID THE THREE MILE RADIUS AND THE FIVE MILE RADIUS. BUT THAT MILITARY OVERLAY DISTRICT ONLY COVERS APPROXIMATELY 60% OF THE CITY. SO THAT'S NOT THE WHOLE CITY, WHICH IS NOT THAT MUCH OF A DISADVANTAGE TOWARDS THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. I WOULD HAVE TO DISAGREE. WELL, THAT'S OKAY. BUT THERE IS MORE OF A, I THINK WHAT YOU SAID IT, WE REVERSED WHEN YOU SAID WE SHOULD HAVE TURN OFF ALL THE LIGHTS TO SEE THE EFFECT OF THE SIGNS. WELL, WE SHOULD DO THE OPPOSITE. IF THAT WAS THE CASE, TURN OFF ALL THE SIGNS AND SEE WHAT THE EFFECT IT HAS. MM-HMM. BACK IN 2010 WHEN WE WROTE THE, UH, DIGITAL ORDINANCE, WE WENT OUT WITH, UH, STAKEHOLDERS IN THE CITY, ART AND ANDY WERE THERE AND WE TOOK METER READINGS OFF OF DIGITAL SIGNS AND THERE WAS MORE AMBIENT LIGHT. THE AMBIENT LIGHT PARKING LOTS, UH, STREET SIGN OR STREET LIGHTS, VEHICLES HAD MORE READING THAN THE DIGITAL SIGN. LIKE WHAT ANDREW SAID WAS THE LOUVERS ARE POINTING DOWN. AND ALSO WHAT ADD IS HERE, LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION. SO IN ALL DIGITAL SIGNS THAT ARE PRETTY MUCH MANUFACTURED TODAY, THEY HAVE THE LOUVERS THAT POINT DOWN? NO, NO. MM-HMM. THE TECHNOLOGY, SORRY, THE TECHNOLOGY HAS BEEN AROUND SINCE OH SEVEN TO, TO APPLY THE LOUVERS. BUT THEY ARE, THAT IS NOT A STANDARD, UH, REQUIREMENT ON DIGITAL SIGNS WITHIN THE CITY. I'M TALKING ABOUT ON AND OFF PREMISE. WE USE THEM, WE ALWAYS HAVE, BUT I'M NOT AWARE THAT EVERYBODY USES THEM. I'M NOT SURE THAT'S A MANDATE. SO SOMEBODY FROM THE SIGN INDUSTRY, DO THEY SELL EITHER? WELL, EVERY SIGN WE'VE INSTALLED HAS THE LOUVERS POINTING DOWN. MM-HMM. , UM, LIKE I GUESS THERE MIGHT BE SOME OTHER VENDORS THAT DON'T SUPPLY THOSE TYPE SIGNS, BUT I'M NOT AWARE, WOULD THE SIGN INDUSTRY HAVE AN ISSUE IF, IF THE SIGN ORDINANCE MANDATED THAT ON ALL DIGITAL SIGNS THEY HAVE TO HAVE THE LOUVERS POINTING DOWN? OH, SORRY. THAT'S THE FIRST TIME. THAT'S THE FIRST. SO CAN THEY STAFF, IS THERE A WAY TO TURN UP THE VOLUME ON THE MICROPHONES? YES. YEAH. OKAY. SO MY QUESTION WAS, IS TO THE SIGN INDUSTRY IS, WOULD THERE BE ANY OBJECTION IF ALL DIGITAL SIGNS HAD TO HAVE THE LOUVERS POINTING DOWN NO AND, UH, SIGNS THAT ARE MOUNTED LOW LIKE ON A WALL OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT? THE 90 DEGREE WOULD NOT AFFECT THE ABILITY TO BE SEEN? NO. NO. OKAY. SO I WAS ON THE, THE DARK SKIES COMMITTEE FOR SIGNAGE AND I FORGET WHEN IT WAS A COUPLE YEARS, A COUPLE YEARS BACK WHEN ROD WAS STILL AROUND. AND THE BIGGEST CONCERN WAS, YEAH, WAS CAMP BULLIS. AND AT THAT TIME, THE, UM, CAR DEALERS THAT WERE OUT THERE IN THE SURROUNDING AREAS HAD MORE AMBIENT LIGHT THAN SIGNAGE. AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST CONCERNS THAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT. AND SO THIS IS WHY, YOU KNOW, NEXT THING WE'RE GONNA, I'M WORRIED ABOUT THIS BECAUSE THE CITY OF SHIRTS NOW ON SIGNAGE, ON PERMITS, IT WANTS A PHOTOMETRIC DESIGN FOR SIGNAGE. AND SO CAN YOU EXPLAIN A PHOTOMETRIC DESIGN? WHAT THAT IS, IS THAT THEY WANT TO SEE HOW MUCH AMBIENT LIGHT AND THE, AND THE, UH, AND THE SIGN CREATE IN THAT AREA. SO I CONTACTED AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER AND HE SAID, WE CAN'T DO THAT BECAUSE OF THE AMBIENT LIGHT. SO 'CAUSE THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT LIGHT TRESPASSING ON SOMEBODY ELSE'S PROPERTY. BUT, UH, THE ENGINEER SAID THERE'S NO WAY TO DO THAT WITH ALL THE, AGAIN, PARKING LOT LIGHTS AND VEHICLES. SO YEAH, IT'S KIND OF A DEFEATING THE PURPOSE. AND, AND AT LEAST IN MY EXPERIENCE, OWNING, YOU KNOW, SMALLER COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE, THE LIGHTS WE HAVE IN FRONT OF THE BUILDING OR ON IN THE BUILDING CANOPIES [00:40:01] AND THE PARKING LOT LIGHTS AND ALL THE SECURITY LIGHTS SO THAT WE DON'T, UH, GET SUED FOR HAVING A, YOU KNOW, UNSAFE PREMISES PUT OUT LIKE A THOUSAND TIMES MORE LIGHT THAN SIGNS. IF I MAY, I I DON'T SEE IT AS DEFEATING THE PURPOSE. I SEE IT AS CONTRIBUTING TO A SOLUTION. SO YEAH. BUT UNTIL YOU CAN IDENTIFY, DOES THAT, DOES THAT DOES BY CHANGING EVERYBODY TO MANDATE DARK SKIES SIGNAGE ACROSS THE WHOLE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. IF YOU'RE ONLY, IF THAT CHANGE ONLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE OF, YOU KNOW, A HALF OF 1% OF THE LIGHT POLLUTION, IT REALLY DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. I DISAGREE ENTIRELY. AND I YEAH, THAT WOULD IMAGINE IT'S CONSIDERABLY MORE, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SPECULATE ON THE NUMBERS OF IT, BUT YOU KNOW, THIS IS JUST ONE STEP IN THE PROCESS OF HELPING TO WORK AND MAKE THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO MORE NIGHT SKY FRIENDLY BECAUSE OF THE IMPLICATIONS IT'S HAVING ON A, A WIDE RANGING LEVEL. YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALREADY TRACKING THAT THE AMOUNT OF MONEY EXPENDED BY ARTIFICIAL LIGHT BEING SHINED UP INTO THE NIGHT SKY JUST IN THE STATE OF TEXAS, IS ALMOST AN EXCESS OF $300 MILLION. AND WE ARE LOSING, YOU MEAN TO PAY THE ELECTRICITY BILL TO LIGHT IT? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? WHAT I'M SAYING IS, SO OUT OF THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, WE'VE ESTIMATED THAT ONE THIRD OF ALL OUTDOOR ARTIFICIAL LIGHTING IS BEING SHINED UP INTO THE NIGHT SKY. IT'S NOT ILLUMINATING ANYTHING ELSE. AND THAT IS COSTING THE, THE COUNTRY $3 BILLION. IT'S COSTING THE STATE OF TEXAS ABOUT 290 $300 MILLION. AND WE ARE LOSING THE NIGHT SKY RIGHT NOW AT A RATE OF 2% EVERY YEAR. SO ANY AMOUNT OF CHANGE WE CAN MAKE IN A POSITIVE, AND YOU'VE ALREADY, YOU KNOW, INFORMED ME, BOTH, BOTH GENTLEMEN HAVE SAID THAT YOU'RE ALREADY TAKING THOSE PRACTICES INTO CONSIDERATION. SO ALL THAT WE'RE ASKING IS TO PUT INTO THIS SIGNAGE CODE SOMETHING THAT KEEPS ANYONE ELSE FROM COMING IN AND SAYING, WELL, IT'S NOT ALREADY MANDATED. THERE'S, THERE'S NOTHING ON THERE THAT SAYS WE CAN'T HAVE OVER 3000 CALVIN. THERE'S NOTHING ON THERE THAT SAYS WE HAVE TO HAVE IT SHIELDED OR DIRECTED. AND YOU'VE ALREADY GOT FOLKS THAT ARE PUTTING THAT INTO PLACE. SO IT'S NOT GOING TO AFFECT THEM. BUT WHAT IT'S GOING TO DO IS TO SET A PRECEDENT FOR THE REST OF THE INDIVIDUALS, THE REST OF THE VENDORS THAT MIGHT COME IN AND TRY TO CAPITALIZE ON THAT NOT BEING ON THE CODE. COLLEEN, CAN I ASK THOSE IN THE SIGN INDUSTRY, WHAT NEGATIVE EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU TO REDUCE THE, THE KELVIN'S OVERALL? OKAY, I'M GONNA GIVE YOU A, A, UM, COLLEEN, I'M GONNA GIVE YOU A EXAMPLE OF THE SIGN THAT WE DID THE, UM, YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL SIGN. YES. OKAY. THAT'S 3000 KEVILLE KEVLIN. WE, WHEN WE MANUFACTURED THAT, SO WHEN YOU DRIVE, THAT'S RIGHT THERE AT THE INTERSECTION OF DOWNTOWN. YEAH, ACROSS FROM THE PEARL IT SAYS YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL. YEAH. ON THE PARKING GARAGE. YEAH, IT'S PARKED. THAT'S 3000 RIGHT THERE. SO, BUT YOU SEE HOW THAT'S, THAT'S OUTLINE LIGHTING AROUND THE, IN THE, AROUND THE LIGHT, THE LETTERS, AND THEN THERE'S AN INSIDE HALO THAT'S 4 40, 100 KEVLIN. SO IT'S A LITTLE BIT BRIGHTER. SO THAT'S THAT. THAT'LL BE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF, OF, OF HOW BRIGHT THE, THE, YOU CAN GO LOOK AT THAT. THAT, SO THE AVERAGE, OKAY, SO LET, LET'S, BECAUSE I NEED TO GET EDUCATED TO MAKE A DECISION. SO ON A STANDARD FACE SIGN THAT HAS L E D LIGHTING, THAT'S A BACKLIT SIGN. WHAT IS THE APPROXIMATE KELVIN THAT SIGN WOULD PUT OUT? WELL, THE, THE LEDS NOT E D JUST NO, NO, NO. WAIT, NO, NO. BECAUSE THE LEDS ARE INSIDE THE CABINET AND THAT'S BETWEEN 61 AND 7,100 KELVINS. BUT THEN YOU HAVE A PIECE OF ACRYLIC RIGHT? DIFFUSES IT. AND THEN THAT'S USUALLY COLORED SO THAT YEAH, IT'S EITHER WHITE OR WHATEVER COLOR. AND THEN YOU HAVE YOUR VINYL OVERLAY GRAPHICS, RIGHT? SO THAT'S ANOTHER DIFFUSER. SO YOU GOT TWO DIFFUSERS ON THERE. SO YOU'RE NOT REALLY GETTING THE FULL L E D MODULE. LIKE IF YOU LOOK AT THAT LIGHT FIXTURE RIGHT THERE, RIGHT, YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, YOU TAKE THAT, THAT LENS OFF, YOU KNOW, IT'S BRIGHT OR LIKE YOU, YOU PUT YOUR LIGHT ON YOUR CAMERA. SO WHEN YOU HAVE A DIFFUSER, YOU'RE NOT GETTING THE, THE COL THE WHOLE COLOR. SO ABOUT HOW MUCH WOULD YOU SAY HALF I'D HAVE TO TAKE A LIGHT METER READING ON IT. YOU KNOW, LARRY, [00:45:01] I, I JUST DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, TIM, DO YOU, AT LEAST FROM THE DIGITAL POINT OF VIEW, UH, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ANY KIND OF BRIGHT BRIGHTNESS, WHICH IS SUBJECTIVE, BUT IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT KNITS FOOT CANDLES, AND I ASSUME KELVIN, YOU DON'T BURN YOUR DIGITALS AT WHATEVER THE HIGH COLOR IS. SAY THE HIGH COLOR IS LIGHT BLUE, THAT'S THE HIGHEST KELVIN, YOU NEVER BURN THAT AS A LIGHT BLUE ENTITY. IT'S A MIX. RIGHT? SO, SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO SIT THERE AND SAY, OH, THIS IS WHAT THIS DOES. IT MAY BE CAPABLE, FOR EXAMPLE, OUR, OUR DIGITAL BILLBOARDS ARE CAPABLE OF A VERY HIGH NUMBER OF KNITS, BUT NUMBER ONE, WE TURN IT DOWN AND WHEN YOU MIX ALL THE COLORS TOGETHER, THAT LOWERS THAT KNIT VALUE QUITE A BIT. I WOULD ASSUME THAT'S HOW IT'S GONNA WORK IN THE KELVIN UH, OKAY. QUANTIFICATION ALSO. SO HAVE YOU MADE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? YES. HAVE YOU MADE A, OR THE, THE CITY ALREADY HAS, WHEN WE MEASURE THE, THE DIGITAL SCIENCE ON THE KNITS, I THINK IT'S LIKE HIGHEST THIS 7,500 AND WE MEASURED IT AT NIGHT, LIKE 200 FEET AWAY FROM THE SIGN. HAVE YOU MADE LIKE A, LIKE KELVIN THAT YOU'RE ASKING FOR, IS IT CONSISTENT WITH A 7,500 KNITS? SO, TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, YOU ACTUALLY CAN'T CONVERT KNITS TO KELVIN. THAT'S NOT A MATHEMATICAL CONVERSION THAT CAN BE MADE. SO, BUT THEY CAN BE MEASURED WITH A LIGHT METER THAT IS SENSITIVE TO KELVIN TEMPERATURE. UH, THERE'S LIGHT PEOPLE AROUND THIS TABLE. WHAT'S A KNIT, IS THAT SOMETHING IN YOUR HAIR THAT YOU HAVE TO COME OUT ? THAT WOULD BE ME. SO CAN I ASK A QUESTION REAL QUICK? YES. SO IF I UNDERSTAND, 60% OF THE CITY ALREADY FALLS UNDER THE DARK SKY ORDINANCE, CORRECT? CORRECT. SO I, YEAH. SO 60% OF THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO ALREADY HAS, IT'S AN ESTIMATED NUMBER, BUT ROUGHLY THAT'S WHAT I, BUT THERE'S, THERE ARE REQUIREMENTS IN PLACE THAT ALREADY ADDRESS YOUR ISSUE. SO IT'S NOT THAT NO PART OF THE CODE ADDRESSES IT MM-HMM. . SO THERE'S 40% THAT DOESN'T FALL UNDER THE DARK SKY, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT YOUR PROPOSED CHANGES WOULD DO ON A PERCENTAGE BASIS TO, UM, THE QUESTION ASKED EARLIER TO IMPROVE THINGS AS FAR AS, YOU KNOW, WHAT PERCENTAGE OF IMPROVEMENT THERE WOULD BE IF ALL THE SIGNS WERE COMPLIANT, I WOULD NEED TO KNOW, YOU KNOW, THE NUMBER OF SIGNS, THE SIZE OF THE SIGNS, WHICH ONES ARE ALREADY IN COMPLIANCE, WHAT TEMPERATURE THEY'RE ALREADY RUNNING AT. SO THAT'S AN UNDERTAKING. I COULD DEFINITELY LOOK INTO GETTING A, A CREW OF FOLKS BEHIND TO CALCULATE THAT, YOU KNOW, DEFINITIVELY. UM, AND I WILL STIPULATE THAT 60% IS JUST A ROUGH ESTIMATE, BUT, WELL, I I, I'M JUST THINKING BACK THROUGH THE PROCESS AS WE DEFINE THE AMENDMENT, UH, AS WE WROTE THE CODE AND WE DEFINED THE REQUIREMENTS TO AMEND THE CODE, THE APPLICANT NEEDED TO BE PREPARED WITH FACTUAL DETAIL MM-HMM. TO SUPPORT THE PROPOSED AMENDMENTS. AND I UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THAT YOU'RE ASKING FOR. I UNDERSTAND, BASED ON YOUR ORGANIZATION WHY YOU'RE ASKING FOR IT. MM-HMM. , I, I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU DON'T HAVE THE FACTUAL DETAIL TO SUPPORT WHAT IT IS YOU'RE ASKING FOR. SO, POINT OF ORDER HERE, OUR POINT OF CLARIFICATION, I KNOW WE'RE BEATING HER UP ABOUT NUMBERS, THAT SHE DOESN'T HAVE THESE NUMBERS, BUT WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, THE CITY DIDN'T QUANTIFY THE REDUCTION OF LIGHT IN THE M LODS. THEY DIDN'T TELL YOU WHAT WE WERE AT AND WHERE WE'VE BEEN REDUCED TO. NO, I UNDERSTAND THAT. THAT'S NOT IFIED, IT'S NEVER BEEN QUANTIFIED BECAUSE THE CITY, AT LEAST FROM A BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE, AND I'M JUST, YOU KNOW, THEY REACTED TO SOMETHING THAT FEAR OF KEMP BULLISH SHUTTING DOWN AND THE BASES MOVING OUT AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT THEY ENACTED TO EITHER DELAY THAT PROCESS OR PACIFY THE MILITARY THAT THEY WERE DOING SOMETHING JUST BECAUSE THEY DID IT AND DIDN'T HAVE THE INFORMATION DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN IT WAS A GREAT DECISION. AND WELL, I'M JUST POINTING OUT THE CITY. NO, I UNDERSTAND. BUT I JUST WANNA FINISH IF I CAN. THANK YOU. GO AHEAD. I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE CITY, WHEN THEY IMPLEMENTED A POLICY WASN'T ABLE TO QUANTIFY THE IMPACT IT WAS GOING TO HAVE, PERIOD. AND SO ASKING HER TO QUANTIFY IT WHEN IT'S SUCH A DIFFICULT CHALLENGE TO DO SO, I THINK IS BEYOND A HURDLE THAT EVEN THE CITY COULDN'T DO IT IF THEY WERE PROPOSING [00:50:01] THIS POLICY TODAY. AND WHILE THAT MAPS SHOWS OUR M L O D OVERLAYS, IT DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT ALL THE HISTORIC DISTRICTS THAT HAVE ADOPTED THE M L O D STANDARDS ALSO, AND ALSO THE 1300 LANDMARKS THAT ADOPT THE M L O D STANDARDS. SO IT'S ACTUALLY LARGER THAN THAT BECAUSE THAT ENTIRE DOWNTOWN SHOULD PRACTICALLY BE SHADED BECAUSE OUR RIVERWALK HAS THE MOST RESTRICTIVE LIGHTING IN THE ENTIRE CITY. AND SO I THINK WHILE THIS MAP SHOWS WHAT M L O D IS, IT DOESN'T TELL THE TRUE STORY OF WHAT LIGHTING RESTRICTIONS EXIST BY POLICY HERE IN THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. SO IF YOU TAKE UP THIS MAP AND THEN HIGHLIGHT ALL THE HISTORIC DISTRICTS AND EVEN HIGHLIGHT, I MENTION, I FORGOT TO MENTION THE NCDS, THOSE ALSO HAVE RESTRICTIONS FOR LIGHTING TO BE DOWNWARD PROJECTING TO NOT HAVE SPILLAGE AND TAKE THESE THINGS INTO ACCOUNT. SO I THINK IT, IT'S A LARGER CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DOING HERE IN THE CITY AND WHAT, WHAT, AND YOU LOOK AT OUR TRAILWAYS, ALL OUR TRAILWAYS TOO TAKE M L O D TOO, AND WE TALK ABOUT THE EMERALD NECKLACE ACROSS THE CITY. SO ADD THE EMERALD NECKLACE UP THERE. I MEAN, WHEN YOU START ADDING ON ALL THE OTHER LAYERS IN THE CITY THAT DO REGULATE LIGHTING ABOVE AND BEYOND THE M L D M L O D, IT'S, IT'S MORE, IT'S SIGNIFICANTLY MORE. SO LET ME ASK, LET ME ASK THIS IF I MAY. YEAH. SO IF I GO TO THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO AND ASK THEM FOR, ASK FOR THEM TO PROVIDE ME A LIST OF EVERY SINGLE ILLUMINATED EXTERIOR SIGN, WHETHER OR NOT IT'S SHIELDED, WHAT IT'S COLOR CORRELATED TEMPERATURE IS, AND WHETHER IT'S DIRECTED AND THAT, WHAT ANGLE COULD THEY PROVIDE ME WITH THAT? PROBABLY NOT. SO HOW COULD YOU EXPECT ONE PERSON OR A VERY SMALL ORGANIZATION JUST NO, NO, I'M, I'M JUST TO THE GENTLEMAN'S QUESTION. WELL, AGAIN, THAT THERE'S, AND I'M NOT SAYING I DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO GATHER AT LEAST SOME SEMBLANCE OF THAT INFORMATION. I DON'T HAVE IT AT THIS TIME, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN I'M NOT CAPABLE OF TRYING TO OBTAIN IT. BUT IF THE CITY CAN'T PROVIDE ME WITH THAT INFORMATION, THEN YOU'RE EXPECTING ME AND SOME COLLECTION OF INDIVIDUALS TO GO AROUND AND WE WOULD HAVE TO PHYSICALLY ASSESS AND REVIEW AND METER EVERY SINGLE EXTERIOR SIGNAGE IN THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. I, I, I'M JUST SIMPLY SUGGESTING AS AN INDIVIDUAL STAKEHOLDER WHO IS TRYING TO CREATE A CHANGE MM-HMM. IN POLICY MM-HMM. , IT SHOULD BE A REQUIREMENT FOR THE STAKEHOLDER TO COME WITH FACTUAL EVIDENCE AS TO WHAT THE IMPACT IS. YOU, YOU'RE, YOU'RE FOCUSED ON YOUR SPECIFIC PRIVATE OBJECTIVE. AND OUR JOB IS TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION, UM, THE IMPACT ON THE OVERALL ORDINANCE MM-HMM. CODE IN ALL STAKEHOLDERS. AGREED. SO, SO YOU'RE FOCUSED ON, ON YOUR OBJECTIVE. AND OUR JOB IS TO FOCUS ON THE OBJECTIVES OF ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS. MM-HMM. , COLLEEN. UM, I, I THINK OUR JOB IS TO, TO TAKE ALL OF THE INFORMATION WE WERE PROVIDED FROM ALL SOURCES TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION ON WHAT WE AS A COLLECTIVE BELIEVE IS BEST FOR THE CITY. CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHAT THE NEGATIVES OR THE FINANCIAL COST HAS BEEN, UM, IN, IN ENFORCING NOT ENFORCING, REQUIRING THAT TYPE OF LIGHTING IN AREAS THAT'S ALREADY REQUIRED? YEAH, I MEAN, I MEAN, I KNOW, I KNOW YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO BACK AND REPLACE IT'S, I MEAN, IT'S, AS THEY'RE INSTALLED NEW OR REPLACED AND THE COST OF THOSE LIGHT SYSTEMS HAVE COME DOWN A LOT. YEAH. I MEAN, I WILL TELL YOU THIS, AS AN OPERATOR OF RESIDENTIAL RENTAL PROPERTY, SO WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT LIGHTING REQUIREMENTS, WE'RE WAY MORE CONCERNED WITH WHAT OUR LEGAL LIABILITY IS GONNA BE FROM HAVING A DARKER PROPERTY. OKAY. SO IF WE PUT IN LIGHTS THAT ARE PROVIDE LESS ILLUMINATION TO THE DARK SKY, WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE JUST PUTTING DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF LIGHTS, FIXTURES AROUND TO HAVE THE SAME LIGHTS, EVEN THOUGH EACHS LIGHT FIXTURE PRODUCES LESS LIGHTING. AND, AND SO RATHER THAN HAVING A L E D LIGHT THAT POINTS OUT AND, AND ILLUMINATES A LARGER AREA, WHICH WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED UNDER THE DARK SKY ORDINANCE, WE'RE GONNA PUT IN 10 LIGHTS TO [00:55:01] PROVIDE THE SAME LIGHTING COVERAGE BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF ZEROS WHEN SOMEONE GETS RAPED, MURDERED, OR SOMETHING ELSE LIKE THAT, THAT IS NOT, YOU KNOW, THAT THE LANDLORD IS ALWAYS THE CULPRIT. EVEN, YOU KNOW, THAT THE NET EFFECT IS ZERO AND IT COSTS US A WHOLE LOT MORE MONEY TO OPERATE UTILITIES, PAY FOR THE LIGHT FIXTURES, PAY TO HAVE 'EM INSTALLED, YOU KNOW, AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO THERE IS A COST. I, YOU KNOW, GREG, YOU WANT TO, YOU KNOW, IF, IF I COULD JUST SPEAK TO THAT REALLY QUICK BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S A, A BIT OF A GROSS OVERESTIMATION OF THE AMOUNT OF LIGHT THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED WITH REGARDS TO YOUR PROPERTY. JUST USING THAT AS AN EXAMPLE, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE IF YOU TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION NIGHT SKY PRESERVATION PRACTICES WITH REGARDS TO LIGHTING THE SHIELDING, THE TEMPERATURE IN THE DIRECTION ACTUALLY IMPROVES SAFETY AND VISIBILITY AND DOES NOT LEAD TO THE AMOUNT OF GLARE THAT YOU WOULD BE SPEAKING TO WITH REGARDS TO HAVING FLOODLIGHTS DIRECTED OUT INTO A GENERAL AREA. YEAH, I'M NOT, I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT THAT. I'M WORRIED ABOUT WHEN WE TAKE THE LIGHT METER OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND IT'S DARK, WE'RE GONNA WANT IT LIGHT SO THAT WE DON'T GET ACCUSED OF, WELL WE'RE, WE'RE NOT. AND OTHER PARTS OF THE CODE ACTUALLY, UH, REQUIRE US TO DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT IT IS THAT YOU'RE ASKING FOR. OKAY. WHEN IT COMES TO SAFETY AND MM-HMM. , UH, BUILDING LIGHTING AND PARKING LOT LIGHTING. AND SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE ENCOUNTERED WHEN WE CAME TO THE U D C PROCESS. AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE SAT DOWN AND HAD A NEGOTIATION AND A TALK AT LENGTH WITH C P SS AND WHILE WE ACTUALLY MADE ACCOMMODATIONS AND CHANGES TO OUR AMENDMENTS TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION WHAT THEY NEEDED TO MAINTAIN FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY. SO I'M NOT SAYING THAT WHAT WE ARE SUGGESTING AND PROPOSING IS NOT CAPABLE OF BEING FLEXIBLE AND ACCOMMODATING. AND THAT'S THE WHOLE REASON WHY I'M HERE, IS TO HAVE THIS DISCUSSION TO ANSWER QUESTIONS LIKE THIS COLLEEN, AND TO TO FIND A AMICABLE POINT AT WHICH WE CAN ALL MAYBE NOT GET EXACTLY WHAT WE WANT. I'M NOT NECESSARILY EXPECTING A HUNDRED PERCENT BECAUSE WE DO NEED TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION STAKEHOLDERS SAFETY, SECURITY REQUIREMENTS BY THE CITY. BUT ANY AMOUNT THAT WE CAN IMPROVE IS A BENEFIT. AND WHILE I UNDERSTAND YOUR POSITION IN STATING THAT I AM, YOU KNOW, UP HERE HOLDING MY OWN AGENDA FOR STAKEHOLDERS, I DO ALSO WANT TO MENTION THAT THESE ARE ACTUALLY PART OF THE GOALS THAT HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED INTO THE NIGHT SKY PRESERVATION COMMITTEE AS PART OF THE CAMP BULL SENTINEL LANDSCAPE CORE TEAM, WHICH IS A CORE TEAM COMPOSED OF OVER 40 DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS, CITY ENTITIES AND STATE ENTITIES THAT WORK AND OPERATE WITHIN THE SAN ANTONIO AREA. SO IT'S NOT JUST ME AS AN INDIVIDUAL REPRESENTING MY SMALL ORGANIZATION PUSHING THIS AGENDA. WE DO HAVE THE SUPPORT AND THE BACKING OF THE JOINT BASED SAN ANTONIO OF ALL OF CAMP BULLIS AND ALL OF THE PARTNERS THAT WE WORK WITH AS WELL. AND THAT DOES INCLUDE RESIDENTS OF SAN ANTONIO WHO HAVE SPOKEN UP ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS DURING THE U D C PROCESS FOR THIS AND NOT AGAINST IT. AND ALSO DOES INCLUDE SUPPORT FROM THE CITY AND ALSO FROM THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. IT IS MY EXPERIENCE THAT WHEN WE WENT FROM FLUORESCENT LAMPS AND HIGH OUTPUT FLUORESCENT LAMPS OR HOS TWO LEDS SEVERAL YEARS BACK, THAT THE LIGHTING WAS LOWER, LEDS WERE NOT AS BRIGHT THEN THE PROBLEM IS, SO WE'VE ALREADY TAKEN A HIT. WELL, THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE LEDS ARE NOT NECESSARILY BETTER ANYTHING OVER THAT 3000 KELVIN, YOU'RE INCREASING YOUR BLUE AND WHITE SPECTRUM ACCESS. SO FOR INSTANCE, FROM A SAFETY AND SECURITY STANDPOINT, IF YOU'VE GOT A BILLBOARD OR A LIGHT THAT IS VIEWABLE BY DRIVERS AT NIGHT, IF IT'S ANYTHING ABOVE THAT, NOW THAT 4,000, 5,000, 6,000 KELVIN, IT'S PUTTING OUT THAT BLUE EMISSION LIGHT, WHICH IS ACTUALLY TREMENDOUSLY DAMAGING. AND I CAN'T IMAGINE THERE'S ANYBODY IN THIS ROOM THAT WOULD SAY THEY'VE EVER SEEN, FOR INSTANCE, THE, THE BLUE LIGHTING OF HEADLIGHTS AND NOT FOUND IT INCREDIBLY ANNOYING AND IRRITATING. AND THAT'S JUST FOR A BRIEF SECOND. SO WHILE LEDS HAVE BEEN BENEFICIAL IN ITS ENERGY SAVING CAPABILITIES, IN REDUCING COST OF LIGHTING IN GENERAL, THEY CAN BE MISUSED. OKAY. SO WE'VE ALREADY TAKEN, THE SIGN INDUSTRY HAS ALREADY TAKEN A HIT AS FAR AS BRIGHTNESS IS CONCERNED. WHEN WE SWITCHED FROM, MOST OF THE LAMPS WERE HOS HIGH OUTPUT, UM, TO A, TO AN L E D LIGHTS, WHICH IS NOT HOS UH, THEY'RE NOT AS BRIGHT AS WE WE WERE BEFORE. SO WE WERE ALREADY ALREADY TAKING A HIT SEVERAL YEARS BACK. SO I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT NOW YOU'RE TAKING A HIT. IN WHAT REGARD, WHAT, WHAT METRICS ARE YOU USING AS NOT AS BRIGHT AS THEY WERE BEFORE? OKAY. IS THAT, IS THERE ANY SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE REGARDING TAKING A HIT? IS IT A FINANCIAL HIT? IS IT A ADVERTISEMENT LOSSES? IS IT VISIBILITY LOSS? HMM. THE LESS BRIGHT'S A BRIGHTNESS, IT'S A BRIGHTNESS LOSS VISIBLE. IT IS, BUT IT'S A GAIN AS FAR AS THE CUSTOMER'S CONCERNED BECAUSE THE, THE BILLS AREN'T AS HIGH. I MEAN, THE, THE TRANSFORMERS THAT WE USED FOR FLUORESCENT LAMPS WERE HUGE. NOW THE LEDS ARE SMALLER, BUT WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT IT'S NOT AS BRIGHT AS WE WERE SEVERAL YEARS BACK. WE WENT LOWER MM-HMM. AND NOW WE'RE BEING ASKED TO GO LOWER. AGAIN, [01:00:02] I, I KIND OF TOOK US DOWN A RABBIT HOLE WHEN I STARTED TALKING ABOUT LIGHTING OVERALL, BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SIGNAGE AND TO MY KNOWLEDGE, WE DON'T USE SIGNAGE FOR SECURITY AND, AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO IF WE CAN BRING IT BACK TO SIGNAGE, DO ANY OF THE SIGN COMPANIES, OR HAS THE CITY HAD ANY COMPLAINTS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT PERSONAL INJURY LAWYER ON THAT SIGN, I CAN'T SEE HIS NAME 'CAUSE IT'S NOT BRIGHT ENOUGH. YOU HAVE COMPLAINTS ABOUT THINGS NOT BEING BRIGHT ENOUGH TO SEE, UH, OKAY. SO, SO THE ANSWER IS NO ONE, NO ONE KNOWS. BUT I GO BACK TO MY ORIGINAL QUESTION IS MY, MY GUESS IS, AND THIS IS JUST ANECDOTAL FROM OPERATING PROPERTY, THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE, THE LIGHT NIGHT POLLUTION IS COMING FROM C P SS WITH THE STREETLIGHTS. IT'S COMING FROM CAR HEADLAMPS ALL NIGHT LONG. IT'S COMING FROM, UH, SECURITY LIGHTS THAT ARE ON BUILDINGS AND SIGNAGE, LIGHT POLLUTION MAKES UP A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF WHAT THAT IS. OKAY. AND, AND THAT'S, IT IS ANECDOTAL, BUT THAT, YOU KNOW, HAVING OPERATED PROPERTY AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE SIGN'S ON AND WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IS, YOU KNOW, AT NIGHT WHEN WE CUT THE SIGN OFF AT 10 O'CLOCK 'CAUSE WE JUST DON'T WANT TO CONTINUE TO PAY THE ELECTRIC BILL AND THE TENANTS DON'T REALLY REQUIRE IT AND TRAFFIC HAS LOWERED. I JUST, IT DOESN'T MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN, YOU KNOW, HOW, AT LEAST TO US, HOW BRIGHT EVERYTHING IS ON THE PROPERTY. AND WE DON'T TAKE SIGNAGE IN CALCULATING, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE LIGHT IS AT ALL. BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S PRACTICAL THINGS THAT ARE EASY TO DO WITHOUT MANDATING RULES. SO FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, REQUIRING EVERY NEW L E D TO HAVE THAT'S INSTALLED, TO HAVE THE DOWNWARD THING IS EASY. I DON'T THINK IT COSTS ONE MORE CENT TO PUT IT UP. IT HELPS, YOU KNOW, HAVING TO HAVE SOMEONE COME OUT AND CERTIFY OR MEASURE THAT THE SIGNS DON'T, THAT MEET THIS STANDARD, THE AVERAGE PERSON WHO'S PUTTING UP A SIGN, YOU KNOW, IS NOT GONNA KNOW WHAT IT IS. AND BECAUSE YOU'RE ONLY DEALING WITH A VERY SMALL PORTION OF THE CITY THAT YOU KNOW AT THIS POINT IS, DOESN'T HAVE TO COMPLY WITH SOMETHING, IT'S NOT GONNA MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE EITHER WAY. AND IF IT'S NOT GONNA MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AND IF YOU CAN'T QUANTIFY WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IS, EVEN BY GUESS, YOU KNOW, I JUST, MY PERSONAL THING IS, IS THERE'S ONE THING THAT HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP THAT'S EASY AND IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO ANYBODY AND IT HELPS THE PROBLEM. AND THEN EVERYTHING ELSE, YOU KNOW, WE CAN COME BACK AND CONSIDER. BUT I'D LIKE TO, UH, UNLESS SOMEBODY HAS MORE QUESTIONS, BIANCA, I, I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A STATEMENT IF I MIGHT, JUST IN REGARDS TO THAT, BECAUSE I, I AM CONCERNED, FOR INSTANCE, IN YOUR COMMENT THAT THE STREETLIGHTS THAT C P SS INSTALLS CONTRIBUTE TO LIGHT POLLUTION. SO THEY ACTUALLY USE FULL CUTOFF FOR THEIR LIGHTS. THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY SHIELDED, BUT THEY ARE FULL CUTOFF. SO THEY DON'T CONTRIBUTE IN THE SAME WAY THAT OTHER ANSEL LIGHTS OR OTHER EXTERNAL ARTIFICIAL LIGHTS DO. ALSO, I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR TO NECESSARILY BE QUANTIFYING THAT IT'S A LITTLE OR A LITTLE BIT OF IMPROVEMENT OR A SMALL PERCENTAGE, BECAUSE IF THAT'S SOMETHING I CAN'T QUANTIFY, I DON'T THINK IT'S SAFE TO GO AHEAD AND MAKE THE ASSUMPTION THAT NO, I, IT'S GOING TO BE A SMALL PERCENTAGE. AND WHILE 40% IS SMALLER THAN 60%, IF WE'RE USING, LIKE I SAID, AN APPROXIMATION OF 60% OF THE CITY FALLING UNDER THE MLR ONE AND MLR TWO 40% IS STILL A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OVERALL. SO I JUST WANNA BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, IF WE WANT QUANTIFIABLE DATA, I CAN DEFINITELY GO BACK AND SEE WHAT I'M CAPABLE OF OBTAINING. BUT I THINK IT'S NOT EXACTLY IN THE BEST INTEREST TO DISMISS IT BASED ON ASSUMPTIONS FROM INFORMATION THAT YOU'RE EXTRAPOLATING BASED ON YOUR GENERAL KNOWLEDGE OF JUST THE LIGHTING EXPERIENCE YOU'VE HAD WITHOUT ACTUALLY HAVING THE QUANTIFIABLE DATA TO BACK IT UP. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? AND YOU COME BACK TO US WHEN YOU HAVE MORE INFORMATION ON THIS? I CAN, I CAN DEFINITELY TRY TO OBTAIN THE INFORMATION THAT'S BEEN REQUESTED SO FAR. IT MIGHT HELP TO RENT A BUS LIKE WE DID WHEN WE WENT AROUND WITH LIGHT METERS ALL OVER THE CITY. UM, DETERMINING, UH, LIGHT EMISSION FROM LEDS. MM-HMM. . SO I JUST WANNA CHIME IN. I WILL [01:05:01] TELL YOU THAT LIGHTING, LIGHTING ON A PROPERTY ALTOGETHER IS A BIG CONCERN IN NEIGHBORHOODS. IT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST HIGHLY DISCUSSED ITEMS WHEN INFILL DEVELOPMENT COMES IN. IT IS ALSO REQUESTED THAT THEY ADHERE TO M L O D. SO WHILE WE'RE NOT ABLE TO QUANTIFY THOSE PROPERTIES THAT ARE REZONED, BECAUSE IT IS MAYBE, UH, TIED TO THE ZONING AS A CONDITIONAL USE, IT WILL NOT DISPLAY ON, ON THE MAP AND SHOW US. BUT THAT IS A HUGE CONCERN. AND SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT GETTING BACK TO THE ISSUE AT HAND, THE LIGHT POLLUTION FROM AN ACTUAL ILLUMINATED SIGN, NOT SECURITY LIGHTING ON THE PROPERTY, CAN THE CITY TELL US HOW MANY SIGNS WERE REPORTED FOR BRIGHTNESS CONCERNS BY RESIDENTS? HOW MANY COMPLAINTS DID YOU GET IN A 12 MONTH CYCLE? IF THAT'S DATA YOU COULD ALSO BRING TO THE NEXT MEETING, I THINK THAT WOULD BE, UH, BENEFICIAL. UM, AND I THINK THAT, THAT THAT INFLUENCES THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION. WE GET A LOT, YOU GET A LOT OF COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE BRIGHTNESS OF ON-PREMISE SIGNS, DO YOU NOT? I THINK UNDERSTANDING THAT, QUANTIFYING THAT NUMBER, IF YOU COULD PROVIDE THAT TO US AT THE NEXT HEARING, I THINK THAT IS A CONVERSATION POINT. 'CAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, UM, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, THE LIGHTNING OF THESE SIGNS AND, AND YOU DO GET A LOT OF COMPLAINTS, RIGHT? THAT'S THE REASON Y'ALL ALL HAVE LIGHT METERS NOW, AND YOU'RE ABLE TO GO AND MEASURE IT. UM, BECAUSE WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, THE CITY DIDN'T HAVE METERS UNTIL THEY DID THE DIGITAL SIGNS. UH, IT WASN'T A COMPLAINT CATEGORY IN 3 1 1 TO REPORT. IT WASN'T AS, YOU KNOW, AND THINGS HAVE GOTTEN BRIGHTER. AND I WILL TELL YOU, UM, THE SIGN THAT REALLY STICKS OUT TO ME WHEN WE TALK ABOUT, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE GOOD ACTORS WHO I THINK ARE HERE AT THE TABLE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE KIND OF LIKE IN THE WILD, WILD WEST WHERE YOU HAVE A STATIC SIGN AND SOMEBODY PUTS A LIGHT ON IT THAT THEY WENT AND BOUGHT AT A COMMERCIAL STORE. AND IT IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S CHALLENGING EVEN TO GET IT TO AIM CORRECTLY. AND THEY, THEY'RE TRYING TO ELIMINATE A STATIC SIGN OR THEY'RE TRYING TO ELIMINATE LANGUAGE ON, UM, YOU KNOW, OLD SIGNS THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, PAINTED ON THE SIDE OF A BUILDING. THOSE TYPES OF THINGS, YOU KNOW, FALL UNDER OUR DISCUSSION POINT. AND SO I, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT. 'CAUSE I KNOW YOU'VE SPOKEN ABOUT THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE SIGNS AND THANK YOU FOR THAT AND, AND EDUCATING PEOPLE ABOUT THE COMPONENTS OF THE SIGN. BUT THE LIGHTING IS IMPORTANT OF THE SIGNAGE TOO. WHEN YOU GET INTO A STATIC JUST PUTTING THIS, YOU KNOW, A, A BRIGHT LIGHT ON IT TO SHOW IT. SO IF STAFF COULD HAVE THAT INFORMATION AT THE NEXT HEARING, I'D GREATLY APPRECIATE IT. AND I'M SUPPORTIVE OF BRINGING THE LANGUAGE IN ON A FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL FOR THE M L O D ONE AND TWO, UM, IN THE SIGNAGE AREA. I THINK THAT'S JUST CONSISTENCY WITH CHAPTER 35 AND CHAPTER 28. UM, AND I THINK THAT SHOULD BE LIKE THE FOUNDATION THAT WE BUILD UPON MOVING FORWARD AS FAR AS TALKING ABOUT WHAT, WHAT IS RELEVANT HERE AND THEN HOW IT WILL IMPACT MOVING FORWARD. SO I THINK THERE'S A BASELINE WE COULD HAVE A DISCUSSION ON AND MOVING THAT LANGUAGE COMMONALITY AS PHASE ONE. AND THEN PHASE TWO IS THE EXPANSION CITYWIDE. SO THANK YOU. SO ARE, CAN I ASK, HOW MANY DO YOU HAVE? IS IT A OUT OF ALL THE SIGNED COMPLAINTS Y'ALL GET, IS IT REGULAR, LIKE EVERY WEEK YOU GET A LIGHT COMPLAINT? WE'LL, WE'LL BRING THE ACTUAL STATISTICS, BUT I WOULD JUST LIKE BREAK IT DOWN MORE. IF THERE'S A WAY TO DELINEATE BETWEEN DIGITAL SIGNAGE AND JUST ILLUMINATED SIGNS OUT OF THE, THERE WE GO. THAT, THAT MUST THAT WAS MY POINT HERE, HERE. IF EVERYBODY SOME ORDER ART. SO TALKING WITH ART, CHIEF ART, UM, MOSTLY IT IS THE DIGITAL SIGNS, BUT I'D LIKE TO DO SOME RESEARCH. 'CAUSE I MEAN, THERE'S YOU, AS YOU WERE SAYING, THERE'S THE NON ILLUMINATED SIGNS WHERE THEY HAVE A, A LIGHT THAT'S SHINING ON IT. AND THAT LIGHT, I WANNA, I'M NOT SURE IF IT ALWAYS WILL GET TO US, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES IT'S SOMEBODY COMPLAINING ABOUT LIGHT, WHICH COULD BE A, A BILLBOARD LIGHT OR IT COULD BE SOMETHING ELSE. OKAY. SO NEXT, SO WE'LL GET SOME RESEARCH AND PROVIDE THAT NEXT TIME WE DISCUSS IT. SO IF WITHOUT OBJECTION, WE'RE GONNA TABLE THIS AND MOVE ON AND FOR MORE INFORMATION. EXCELLENT. OKAY. JUST A JUST REAL QUICK, I HAVEN'T, I'VE BEEN LISTENING TO ALL THIS AND IT'S, UH, IT'S FASCINATING, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU'RE ABLE TO QUANTIFY FOR THE WHOLE NATION AND ALL THOSE FIGURES AND, AND IF IT'S SOMETHING WE HAVE TO VOTE ON AT SOME POINT FOR THE CITY, I WOULD THINK THAT THERE WOULD NEED TO BE SOME KIND OF A COMPARISON OF, UH, CAR LIGHTS THAT ARE EXTREMELY BRIGHT THROUGHOUT THE CITY OR THROUGHOUT BOTH DISTRICTS OR THROUGHOUT THIS AREA. ALL THOSE DIFFERENT COMPARISONS AS FAR AS PERCENTAGE, AND I KNOW IT'D BE HARD TO QUANTIFY, BUT WE ARE SINGLING OUT SIGNS, WHICH I'M NOT OPPOSED TO US DOING SOMETHING, BUT I THINK IT SHOULD BE PART OF, INSTEAD OF SAYING WE JUST DON'T KNOW. BUT IT IS SOMETHING OUT THERE BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY OTHER FACTORS, EVEN ON PEOPLE THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE THEIR LIGHTS SHINED DOWN AND THEY'RE SHINED OUT AND, AND CAR LIGHTS AND JUST, THERE'S SO MUCH LIGHTING THAT YOU SEE. AND AS A PERCENTAGE TO ME, SIGNAGE IS, YEAH, IT'S THERE. BUT [01:10:01] I WOULD THINK AND HOPE THAT BEFORE WE HAVE TO VOTE ON SOMETHING, EVEN AFTER WE TABLE THIS, THAT WE HAVE SOMETHING A LITTLE MORE QUANTIFIABLE THAN JUST TARGETING THAT ONE ITEM. RIGHT. I CAN DEFINITELY BRING THAT INFORMATION BACK. AND THEN, AND AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, WE'RE SINGLING OUT SIGNS. 'CAUSE THIS IS THE SIGN CODE . SO THAT'S, THAT'S THE FOCUS RIGHT NOW. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE FOCUS IS NOT GOING TO BE ON ANOTHER PORTION OF, YOU KNOW, ARTIFICIAL EXTERIOR LIGHTING. NOW I CAN TELL YOU WITH MOST CARS, ESPECIALLY NEWER CARS, THERE IS A CUTOFF ON HEADLIGHTS AND THEIR ABILITY TO PROJECT. UM, BUT ABSOLUTELY I WILL DEFINITELY DO MY DUE DILIGENCE AND TRY TO COME BACK WITH AS MUCH QUANTIFIABLE DATA AS I CAN OBTAIN. AND THEN, JEREMY, WILL YOU JUST ADD A NOTE TO THIS, THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE CONSENSUS IF WE WERE TO APPLY, UH, THE DOWNWARD SHIELD TO ALL L E ALL NEW L E D SIGNS THAT NOBODY WOULD HAVE A PROBLEM. I KNOW WE, UH, FOR JOSEPH'S, UH, POINT OF VIEW, WE DIDN'T TAKE A VOTE, BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE CONSENSUS AMONG THE GROUP THAT THAT WOULD BE OKAY. SO THAT MAY BE SOMETHING THAT WE LOOK AT, AT, REGARDLESS. I MEAN, THAT'S DEFINITELY AN IMPROVEMENT, BUT THE SHIELDING OF LIGHT IS ONLY ONE PART OF THE EQUATION THAT MAKES EXTERIOR ARTIFICIAL LIGHTING IT FRIENDLY. I, I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT OF VIEW. YOU'VE MADE YOUR POINT. WE ARE TABLING IT UNTIL WE CAN GET SOME MORE INFORMATION. BUT I WAS ASKING STAFF TO JUST ADD A NOTE TO THAT, TO A SECTION SOMEWHERE THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE A GENERAL AGREEMENT THAT, YOU KNOW, L E D SHIELDING POINTING DOWN WOULD BE A GOOD THING AND IT DOESN'T COST ANYTHING. AND I, I WOULD WANT TO GET INFORMATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS AN ADDITIONAL COST. I'M NOT, I'M NOT HAVING A CONVERSATION. RIGHT. I I DON'T MEAN TO BE RUDE, BUT I'M NOT DIRECTING IT TO YOU. I'M DIRECTING YOU. I I UNDERSTAND, BUT WHAT YOU ARE ASKING FOR THEM TO PUT ON THE RECORD ISN'T, I NOT, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR SECTION OF THE, OF THE, WHAT YOU'RE PROPOSING. I'M ASKING STAFF TO MAKE A NOTE THAT, TO ADD AN ADDITIONAL PROPOSAL TO OUR LIST TO CONSIDER DOWNWARD SHIELDING FOR ALL L E D. UH, I UNDERSTAND. I'M, I'M JUST STATING FROM MY PERSONAL AND PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE THAT MOST EXTERIOR LIGHTING THAT REQUIRES A SHIELDING, OR I SHOULD SAY MOST EXTERIOR LIGHTING MANUFACTURERS THAT OFFER A SHIELDING, IT'S USUALLY WITH AN ADDITIONAL COST. CAN, CAN WE ALSO MAKE A NOTE, UM, UH, OF BIANCA'S SUGGESTION SHE MADE WHEN SHE LAST SPOKE MM-HMM. , WHICH IS TO GET THE WELL, NO, THEY'RE ALREADY DOING, YOU, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT GETTING A RECORD OF HOW MANY LIGHT COMPLAINTS THERE ARE. YEAH, THEY'RE ALREADY DOING THAT. YEAH. WELL, AND IS THERE GENERAL CONSENSUS THAT WE WOULD WANT THE LANGUAGE TO BE THE SAME FROM CHAPTER 35 TO 28 WITH RESPECT TO M L O D ONE AND TWO? I WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT BEING A BASELINE, NOT YOU'RE NOT THERE YET. WE'RE NOT HERE IS WHAT, HERE IS WHAT I HAVE RECOMMENDED TO STAFF, AND I WAS GONNA SAY IT LATER, BUT ANY, I WANT TO ADD AT THE END OF THIS SIGN ORDINANCE A REFERENCE SOMETHING WHERE EVERY THING THAT THE CITY PASSES THAT DEALS WITH SIGNAGE IS REFERENCED WITHIN THE SIGN CODE. OKAY? SO IF THERE IS A NEIGHBORHOOD CONSERVATION DISTRICT THAT LIMITS SIGNS THAT SOMEWHERE IN THE SIGN CODE, IT SHOULD HAVE A REFERENCE TO THAT. SO WE DON'T END UP WITH THE SAME THING WE DID WITH, UH, THE HILL COUNTRY GATEWAY OR WHATEVER THE CORRECT NAME IS CALLED, WHERE IT PASSED. NOBODY KNOW, ONE HAND DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THE OTHER AND SIGNS ARE APPROVED. SO MY RECOMMENDATION AS WE FINISH THE PROCESS IS WE ARE GONNA GO TRY TO IDENTIFY, AND THEN IF THE CITY PASSES ANY OTHER ORDINANCES DEALING WITH SIGNS, THAT PART OF THE ORDINANCE IS GOING TO AMEND CHAPTER 28 TO ADD THIS INTO THE THING SO THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS WHERE TO GO TO GET INFORMATION ABOUT ALL THE DIFFERENT THOUSANDS OF DIFFERENT ORDINANCES THAT MAY AFFECT SCIENCE. SO I, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS MY OBSERVATION AND THAT'S WHAT I, YOU KNOW, WE WILL DISCUSS A LITTLE LATER ON WHEN WE GET TO THE GATEWAY STUFF. BUT IT IS JUST THAT IF I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT SIGNS, I PULL OUT CHAPTER 28 AND EVERYTHING THAT DEALS WITH SIGNS EVERYWHERE IN [01:15:01] THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO WAS IN THIS, EITHER IN IT OR REFERENCED IN IT SO THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS. SO WITH THAT SAID, MR. CHAIR, WE'RE HERE TO REVIEW THIS CODE. THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE. YEAH. AND FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE INDUSTRY AND FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE COMMUNITY. SO EVERYTHING SHOULD BE REVIEWED AND REVISITED. SO I CONCUR WITH YOU WANTING TO TABLE THIS ISSUE TILL THE NEXT MEETING AND RECEIVE THE INPUT FROM THE NIGHT SKY FOLK AND RECEIVE FROM THE INDUSTRY WHATEVER COMMENT THEY MAY HAVE. AND I'D LIKE FOR US TO MOVE ON, SIR. THANK YOU. YOU THANK YOU. THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO, REALLY. ALL RIGHT. WELL THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS, COMMENTS. JUST TO, JUST TO CLARIFY, WE, WE WE'RE NOT HERE TO REVIEW THE CODE, WE'RE HERE TO CONSIDER PROPOSED AMENDMENTS TO THE CODE. YEAH. I MEAN, GREG, IN REALITY, WE'RE HERE TO DO KIND OF BOTH, BUT, BUT WHAT WE'RE NOT GONNA GO THROUGH EVERY, YOU KNOW, CONSERVATION DISTRICT AND GATEWAY, YOU KNOW, TO LOOK AT THE THING WE'RE LOOKING YES, AGREED. CHAPTER 28. BUT AS MEAN PART OF CHAPTER 28, WHAT I AM RECOMMENDING TO THE COMMITTEE AND TO STAFF IS THAT ALL THOSE OTHER CODES THAT DEALT WITH SIGNS AT LEAST GET REFERENCED SOMEWHERE IN THE DOCK. I MEAN, SOME OF US SPENT ALMOST TWO YEARS REWRITING THE ENTIRE CODE. YEAH. THESE COMMITTEES ARE INTENDED TO ADDRESS SPECIFIC PROPOSED STAKEHOLDER AMENDMENTS TO THE CODE, NOT TO REVIEW THE ENTIRE CODE. YEAH, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING. OKAY. UH, ITEM FIVE. THANK YOU, CHAIR. SO, UH, ITEM NUMBER FIVE, IT'LL BE ANOTHER PRESENTATION BY OUT FRONT. I'LL CLARIFY EXACTLY WHAT THAT ITEM IS REAL FAST, FAST BEFORE WE GET STARTED. AND, AND ACTUALLY, AND I SHOULD HAVE SAID THIS, PLEASE IDENTIFY, DO THEY NEED TO GIVE NAME AND ADDRESS OR JUST NAME IS FINE. UH, NAME AND COMPANY REPRESENTATIVE. THANK YOU. UH, SO REAL FAST. SO THIS IS AGENDA ITEM NUMBER FIVE, CHAPTER 28, AMENDMENT ITEM SEVEN DASH ONE AND EXTERNAL REQUEST TO AMEND ARTICLE FOUR, DIVISION TWO, SUBDIVISION B OFF-PREMISE SIGNS TO PERMIT SIGN BUILDERS TO CONVERT EXISTING 14 BY 48 FOOT SQUARE FOOT SIGNS TO DIGITAL SIGNS ALONG LIMITED HIGHWAYS WITHIN THE CITY. SO I'LL TURN IT OVER TO MATT WITH OUT FRONT. GREAT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. MATT MCCANN. I AM THE REAL ESTATE MANAGER FOR OUT FRONT MEDIA. OKAY. YOU NEED TO, GOTTA SHORT, I PULLED IT DOWN EVEN. HOW'S THAT? OKAY, THERE WE GO. HOW'S THIS BETTER? YES. OKAY. MY NAME'S MATTHEW MCCANN. I'M THE REAL ESTATE MANAGER FOR OUTFRONT IN SAN ANTONIO. UH, AND I AM HERE TO DISCUSS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR SIGN COMPANIES TO CONVERT EXISTING STATIC INVENTORY TO DIGITAL SO LONG AS THEY MEET CERTAIN MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS. AND SO, JEREMY, YOUR CONVERSATION THIS MORNING WAS TIMELY. UM, THE CONVERSATION HISTORICALLY HAS FOCUSED ON TAKEDOWNS ONLY. AND SO IN 2007, I BELIEVE THE TAKEDOWN RATIO WAS THREE TO ONE. IN 2019, AT LEAST FOR OUT FRONT IT WAS A 5.4 TO ONE TAKEDOWN RATIO. AND OUT FRONT UNFORTUNATELY DOESN'T HAVE THE INVENTORY THAT SOME OF THE OTHER SIGN COMPANIES IN THE CITY HAVE. WE HAVE 27 LOCATIONS REMAINING. UH, AND SO TO REMOVE A SIGN IS A DEVASTATING BLOW, UM, TO OUR ABILITY TO CONTINUE OPERATING IN THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. AND SO WE WENT TO THE DRAWING BOARD AND WE THOUGHT HOW CAN WE, UM, CREATE A RIGHT BY SIGN COMPANIES TO CONVERT, UM, BUT ALSO CREATE A SUSTAINED BENEFIT TO THE CITY. AND SO, UM, IF YOU CHANGE THE SLIDE, YOU'LL SEE ON THIS, THIS NEXT PAGE, UM, WHAT IT IS THAT WE'RE PRESENTING. WE WANNA PAY THE CITY A LOT OF MONEY PER LOCATION IN THE FORM OF AN UPFRONT PAYMENT AND AN ANNUAL FEE. UM, THAT WILL CONTINUE FOR AS LONG AS THIS DIGITAL SIGN EXISTS, WHILE ALSO PROVIDING SPACE AVAILABLE ADVERTISING TO THE CITY UNDER A SHARED USE PROGRAM THAT I'LL DISCUSS AT THE SUM AT, IN, IN A FEW MINUTES. UM, ALL AT NO COST TO THE CITY. AND SO NEXT SLIDE, IF YOU WILL. UH, WE PROPOSE, UH, LIMITING THIS TO CERTAIN PRIMARY HIGHWAYS IN THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. AND THERE ARE A FEW REASONS FOR THIS, BUT TWO OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ARE, THIS IS WHERE A LOT OF THE INVENTORY, THE MAJORITY OF INVENTORY EXIST IN THE CITY. UH, AND ALSO BECAUSE OF THE FINANCIAL INCENTIVE OR THE FINANCIAL, UM, OBLIGATIONS THAT SIGN COMPANIES WOULD HAVE, THESE ARE THE HIGHEST REVENUE GENERATING LOCATIONS THAT WOULD ALLOW US TO OFFSET THOSE COSTS BOTH UPFRONT AND ALSO, UM, EACH YEAR. AND SO WE'VE TALKED A LOT ABOUT TAKE DOWNS. AND SO I JUST, I WANT TO DISCUSS AS OF NOW, I KNOW THERE'S A CONVERSATION GOING ON ABOUT POSSIBLY CREATING A CERTIFIED CITY STATUS FOR THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO, BUT AT THIS TIME, THAT'S NOT THE CASE. [01:20:01] SO IF ANY SIGN COMPANY WANTED TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS PROGRAM, THEY WOULD HAVE TO SECURE A PERMIT FROM TXDOT. AND AS PART OF THAT PERMIT, THE SIGN COMPANY WOULD HAVE TO SHOW THAT THERE IS A MINIMUM OF 1500 FEET SPACING RADIAL FROM THE NEXT CLOSEST DIGITAL SIGN ON EITHER SIDE OF THE SAME HIGHWAY. AND SO THAT'S DIGITAL. THEY WOULD ALSO HAVE TO SHOW THAT THERE IS 1500 FEET LINEAR SPACING FROM THAT PROPOSED DIGITAL CONVERSION SIGN IN THE NEXT CLOSEST NON-DIGITAL SIGN ON THE SAME SIDE OF THE HIGHWAY. AND SO IF YOU'VE DRIVEN, I'M SURE ALL OF US HAVE DRIVEN EACH OF THESE ROADS. UH, YOU'LL NOTICE THAT, UH, A LOT OF THE SECTORS HAVE BILLBOARDS LOCATED WITHIN 500 TO A THOUSAND FEET OF THE NEXT CLOSEST. AND SO ALTHOUGH REMOVALS AREN'T A REQUIREMENT OF THIS PROPOSAL, THEY WILL ULTIMATELY BE A BYPRODUCT, UM, BECAUSE OF THAT SPACING REQUIREMENT. AND SO IF THERE IS ONE OR TWO WITHIN, UH, THAT 1500 FEET, THEN OF COURSE THOSE WOULD HAVE TO BE REMOVED AS A, UM, AS A REQUIREMENT TO SECURING THAT T PERMIT. AND SO IF WE MOVE FORWARD, AND SO WHAT EXACTLY ARE WE TALKING HOW MUCH? AND SO, UH, THE UPFRONT PAYMENT WE PROPOSE IS $75,000. THIS IS PER LOCATION. THIS GOES INTO DISCRETIONARY FUND FOR THE CITY. WE AT OUT FRONT DO NOT BELIEVE WE KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR THE CITY AND ITS RESIDENTS. AND SO WE DEFER TO THIS COMMITTEE, CITY COUNCIL, AND WE HOPE THAT THERE ARE FORUMS THAT ENGAGE RESIDENTS TO DETERMINE EXACTLY HOW THIS AMOUNT WOULD BE BEST SPENT. UM, AND WE ALSO PROPOSE A $30,000, UH, MINIMUM ANNUAL GUARANTEE, WHICH IS WHAT MAG STANDS FOR. AND THAT WOULD BE AN ANNUAL FEE TO THE CITY THAT WOULD CONTINUE FOR AS LONG AS THE DIGITAL SIGN EXISTS. AND SO QUICK MATH, YOU LOOK AT THAT, THAT'S OVER 10 YEARS FOR ONE LOCATION, $375,000 TO THE CITY IN, UH, DISCRETIONARY FUNDING. IS THAT BASED UPON A PERCENTAGE? IT IS NOT. SO THAT IS A GUARANTEE. WELL, SO, UM, THE, THE SECOND ONE, THE, YOU SAID A MINIMUM, THE MINIMUM ANNUAL GUARANTEE. AND SO IT'S, IT'S A GUARANTEED ANNUAL FEE. IT'S NOT BASED ON A PERCENTAGE THAT WILL GO TO THE CITY EVERY SINGLE YEAR WITHOUT FAIL, REGARDLESS OF HOW WELL THE SIGN PERFORMS FOR THAT YEAR. HEY, TIM, TIM, WOULD YOU BE IN FAVOR OF WHAT'S BEING PROPOSED RIGHT NOW? YOU KNOW, I, I CAN WORK WITH ANYTHING. I'VE GOT SOME CONCERNS ABOUT THE MAPPING, THE ROADS THAT WERE LAID OUT BY OUT FRONT, BUT I SUSPECT MATT AND I COULD TALK ABOUT THAT AND GET THAT SETTLED. BUT, UH, UH, I'M, I'M LEAVING THIS THE COMMITTEE. SO YOU GUYS, AND THAT'S A GREAT POINT. AND YOU KNOW, I, I LOVE THE CHAIRMAN'S SUGGESTION EARLIER. UM, WE'D LIKE TO INCLUDE THIS PROPOSAL AND THESE, THESE REQUIREMENTS AS PART OF A CONVERSATION IN SOME WORKING GROUP THAT'S FORMED OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS, UM, SO THAT WE CAN REALLY IRON OUT THE DETAILS AND MAKE SURE THAT, AGAIN, IT'S BENEFICIAL FOR THE STAKEHOLDERS, THE SIGN COMPANIES THAT ARE ACTUALLY PARTICIPATING IN THIS, AND ALSO THE CITY AND ITS RESIDENTS. SO I'VE, CAN YOU, WHAT DOES MAG STAND FOR? MAG STANDS FOR A MINIMUM ANNUAL GUARANTEE. OKAY. SO I GO BACK TO MY FIRST QUESTION THAT YOU ANSWERED. NO, BUT I THINK THE ANSWER IS YES. OKAY. IS THERE IS SOME PERCENTAGE OF THE ANNUAL REVENUE FROM EACH SIGN LOCATION THAT WOULD GO TO THE CITY WITH A MINIMUM ANNUAL GUARANTEE OF THAT $30,000? CORRECT. SO IN OUR PROPOSAL, THAT IS, THAT IS NOT CORRECT. AGAIN, WE ARE, WE ARE PRESENTING, SO HOW WE ARE PROPOSING, YES. UM, SO IT'S NOT A, IT'S NOT A MINIMUM ANNUAL GUARANTEE. IT'S A YEARLY FEE. YES. YES. THAT'S, THAT'S A BETTER WAY TO DESCRIBE IT. BUT OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, WE ARE OPEN TO A PERCENTAGE. BUT, UM, THIS IS A WAY TO GUARANTEE, AGAIN, UH, TO ENSURE THAT THE CITY KNOWS EXACTLY PER LOCATION WHAT THEY CAN EXPECT EACH YEAR FOR AS LONG AS IT, IT EXISTS. AND SO YOU, YOU, YOU'RE RIGHT, THE PHRASING PROBABLY COULD BE, UM, CHANGE TO A, A, A GUARANTEED FEE ANNUAL FEE. JUST A QUICK QUESTION. I I WAS NOTICING IT SAID IN OUR 81 YEAR HISTORY, WHERE ELSE ARE Y'ALL DOING THIS? SO WE HAVE DEALS LIKE THIS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. UM, OUT FRONT EXIST IN 49 OF THE TOP 50, UH, DMAS IN THE COUNTRY. AND I'D SAY IN AT LEAST A QUARTER OF THOSE, WE HAVE SIMILAR AGREEMENTS WITH THE MUNICIPAL MUNICIPALITY. ANY, ANY OTHER CITIES IN TEXAS. UH, YES, BUT NOT THROUGH THE MUNICIPALITY. UM, THEY'RE REALLY ONE-OFF AGREEMENTS, BUT OFFERING FINANCIAL INCENTIVES AS AN A WAY TO, UM, GUARANTEE OR, OR CREATE A RIGHT TO CONVERT SIGNS IS, IS FAIRLY COMMON IN THE INDUSTRY. [01:25:04] DO YOU HAVE MORE SLIDES? UH, YES. SO JEREMY, IF WE COULD JUST GO TO THE NEXT ONE. AND SO, UH, IN ADDITION TO THE FEE I, I MENTIONED EARLIER A SHARED USE PROGRAM, AND THESE ARE JUST A FEW EXAMPLES OF, UM, AVAILABLE, UH, WAYS THAT THE CITY COULD USE THE AVAILABLE SPACE THAT THEY HAVE AT EACH DIGITAL LOCATION. AND SO JUST TOUCHING ON A FEW, UM, WEATHER, YOU KNOW, I, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU GUYS, BUT WALKING FROM MY CAR TO THE FRONT OF THIS BUILDING, I STARTED SWEATING AND SO, YOU KNOW, UH, HEAT ADVISORIES, UM, AMBER ALERTS, UM, THE LAST YEAR WHEN WE HAD THE DEEP FREEZE, UM, JUST SHOWING THAT THERE ARE RESOURCES AVAILABLE, UM, AND ALLOWING THE CITY TO COMMUNICATE THOSE RESOURCES TO THE RESIDENTS. SO MOVING ON, THE LAST THING, AND THAT WOULD BE IN ADDITION TO THE FEE? THAT'S CORRECT. OKAY. AND THAT WOULD BE ALSO AT NO COST TO THE CITY. AND SO THE LAST THING THAT I REALLY WANT TO EMPHASIZE IS THAT THIS OPPORTUNITY, THE, UH, EXPENSE OF THE CONVERSION ITSELF, ANY ASSOCIATED TAKE DOWN THE ONGOING MAINTENANCE COST, THOSE WOULD ALL BE THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE SIGN COMPANIES, NOT THE CITY. AND SO THAT, THAT'S THE OPPORTUNITY. YOU MENTIONED 1500 FEET OF SPACING BETWEEN A DIGITAL SIGN AND A STATIC. THIS IS ANDREW PEREZ. UM, I THINK THE CITY CURRENTLY HAS A CODE THAT SAYS 2000 FEET BETWEEN A DIGITAL AND, UH, ANOTHER ONE. WELL, ARE YOU PROPOSING TO CHANGE THAT OR ARE YOU GONNA MEET THE CURRENT CODE? WELL, SO, UM, YOU KNOW, THAT'S FOR THIS C COMMITTEE TO DISCUSS, OF COURSE, WE WOULD HAVE TO ABIDE BY THE MOST RESTRICTIVE SPACING REQUIREMENT. AND SO THAT WOULD BE THE CITY'S CODE, WHICH IS 2000 FEET FROM THE NEXT CLOSEST LOCATION. I JUST WANTED TO MENTION THE FACT THAT THERE'S ALSO A TEXTILE REQUIREMENT THAT WOULD REQUIRE COMPANIES TO REMOVE SIGNS THAT FALL WITHIN THOSE 1500 FEET. AS AS, UM, PART OF THIS PROGRAM. I THINK THAT IF YOU STICK WITH THE CITY CODE NOW, UNLESS I'M IT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT YOU SAID, IT WOULD BENEFIT YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE BECAUSE IT'S NOT A RADIUS, IT'S FROM ONE SIDE TO THE OTHER. OKAY. SO IF, THANK YOU, LIKE I SAID EARLIER, I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE THIS ISSUE IF NO ONE HAS AN OBJECTION OR ONE OF THE VOTING MEMBERS DOESN'T WANT TO MAKE A MOTION TO FORM A JUST STAKEHOLDER WORK GROUP MADE UP OF ANYBODY THAT WANTS TO PARTICIPATE TO HAVE A DISCUSSION AND BRINGS SOME THOUGHTS BACK TO THIS, RATHER THAN FLESHING IT OUT AND TRYING TO MAKE THE SAUSAGE AT THIS MEETING. AND BECAUSE I THINK THE ISSUE IS MUCH BIGGER THAN JUST, YOU KNOW, THAT. AND YOU KNOW, IT'S WHAT CONTENT, YOU KNOW, IS GONNA GO UP ON THE SIGN AND YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH IS GONNA BE PAID IS REALLY NOT PART OF A SIGN ORDINANCE. BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, IF, IF WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO IS RATHER THAN STATE POSITIONS FAVOR OR AGAINST, IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, AND IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A STATEMENT ABOUT WHETHER YOU SUPPORT IT OR DON'T, I WOULD HOPE THAT YOU WOULD WAIT UNTIL THE WORKING GROUP COMES BACK AND TRIES TO MAKE THE SAUSAGE. BIANCA, CAN WE RESTRICT IT? I'M SORRY. SORRY, I HAD A QUESTION FOR LEGAL. IF WE COULD CONSIDER SOMETHING OF THIS NATURE WHEN IT IS REVENUE GENERATING FOR THE CITY, UH, IN THE AGREEMENT. YEAH, IT'S, SOME OF THE DETAILS ARE NOT NECESSARILY PERTINENT TO THIS GROUP. UM, YOU KNOW, THAT POSSIBLY BEING, BEING ONE. SO, UM, THE, THE WORKING GROUP CAN DISCUSS THE THINGS THAT ARE PERTINENT, YOU KNOW, UH, TO THIS, UH, TO THIS SUBCOMMITTEE. UH, BUT YEAH, SOME OF THE OTHER DEALS WOULD, WOULD ARE, ARE, LIKE YOU SAID, REVENUE GENERATING. THAT'S, THAT'S KIND OF A BUSINESS. YEAH. RIGHT. THAT AND ALSO CONTENT. WE COULDN'T DISCUSS THE CONTENT OF THESE SIGNS. CORRECT. I, I'M SORRY. THE CONTENT OF THE CONTENT OF THE SIGN BECAUSE THEY'RE INDICATING CERTAIN MESSAGING COULD BE USED ON THESE BILLBOARDS. WE COULD NOT TALK ABOUT WHAT KIND OF CONTENT THAT THE CITY COULD PLACE ON. OKAY. I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT. AND THEN I HAD A QUESTION FOR, UM, I LOST MY LAST QUESTION. I'LL COME BACK. OKAY. ALI? UM, I, I UNDERSTAND THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO FINISH ALL OF THIS OUT AND MAKE A DECISION TODAY, AND IT'S, WE REALLY WILL NEED A WORKING GROUP, BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL IF WE COULD SPEND 10 MINUTES NOT STATING POSITION AND ALL BUT JUST ASKING SOME QUESTIONS. [01:30:01] NO, YOU COULD, UH, THAT'S WHAT I SAID. QUESTIONS ARE FINE. IF YOU WANT TO STATE OPINION, I WOULD HOPE THAT WE COULD WAIT FOR THE GROUP. YOU CAN EXPRESS THAT THERE, YOU CAN COME BACK AND EXPRESS IT AGAIN. BUT I WANT TO JUST, YOU KNOW, NOT HAVE THE SAME DISCUSSION FIVE TIMES BEFORE IT GETS BACK HERE. BIANCA, QUESTION FOR THE PRESENTER. YES. UM, AS WE MOVE FORWARD, IF YOU COULD BRING INFORMATION ABOUT THE SPECIFIC CITIES THAT YOU ARE CURRENTLY HAVING AGREEMENT HERE IN TEXAS AND THEN YOU MENTIONED ELSEWHERE IN THE COUNTRY, AND THEN KIND OF WHAT THOSE STRUCTURE, WHAT THE STRUCTURE IS. 'CAUSE YOU MENTIONED 10 YEARS, BUT YET YOU HAVE SOME ONE-OFF AGREEMENTS. ARE THOSE ALSO TENURE CENTERED? UM, AND THEN, UH, WHAT WAS MY OTHER QUESTION? THE TAKE DOWN THAT, THAT COMES WITH IS, IS IT STRUCTURED OVER THE SAME BASIS THAT YOU'RE PRESENTING TO US WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR ONE-OFF DEALS? YES, MA'AM. SO THANK YOU. YES MA'AM. GLADLY, YES. AND THEN ALSO I DON'T, I THINK IT'S A PERMANENT AGREEMENT AND THEY JUST PICK 10 YEARS TO SHOW WHAT THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF MONEY IS. BUT IF THE SIGN DIGITAL SIGNS UP FOR 50 YEARS, I THINK THE CITY WOULD GET THE REVENUE FOR 50 YEARS, CORRECT? THAT'S CORRECT. BUT I'LL STILL PROVIDE EXAMPLES FROM OTHER LOCATIONS. YEAH. UM, AVERAGE TERMS. YEAH. PERFECT. PAULINE, THANK YOU. THAT REVENUE OVER 10 YEARS WAS ONE OF MY QUESTIONS. UM, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, UH, PER STATE REGULATION, YOU WOULD, THERE WOULD PROBABLY NEED TO BE A TAKE DOWN OF SIGNS SO THAT WE'D HAVE REDUCED SIGNS. WHAT HAPPENS TO THE SMALLER COMPANIES WHO THOSE NEARBY SIGNS AREN'T THEIRS? WILL THEY BE ABLE TO TAKE DOWN, I MEAN, WILL THEY BE ABLE TO DIGITIZE? NO, AND UNFORTUNATELY THAT'S THE NATURE OF HOW WE OPERATE IN THE STATE. UM, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT JUST LIMITED TO THIS OPPORTUNITY HERE. UM, BUT YOU KNOW, I KNOW CLEAR CHANNEL IS I THINK THE ONLY OTHER SIGN COMPANY, UM, THAT DOES OFF-PREMISE IN HERE. UM, IT'S, IT'S, IT'S, IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT YEAH, WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE THERE AND THEN, BUT, BUT HOWEVER THE WORKING GROUP COULD TAKE THAT ISSUE UP MM-HMM. AND MAKE DIFFERENT REQUIREMENTS BASED UPON THE NUMBER OF SIGNS YOU HAVE IN SAN ANTONIO. I THINK JOSEPH, THAT WOULD BE LEGAL, CORRECT? UH, YEAH. I MEAN IF IT'S FACT FINDING, INFORMATION GATHERING, YEAH. OKAY. UM, OKAY. MARK? YES. ARE YOU SAYING, UM, THAT BASED UPON THE PRESENTATION AND THE MONEY, OUTGOING MONEY THAT UM, YOU'LL ONLY BE REQUIRED TO TAKE DOWN TWO DI TWO UM, STATIC FACES TO REPLACE THEM WITH TWO DIGITAL FACES? UM, THAT'S, THAT'S CORRECT. SO, UM, PER LOCATION, WE ARE ASKING FOR THE RIGHT TO CONVERT A STATIC. SO REMOVE ONE STATIC AND THEN REPLACE THAT STATIC WITH A DIGITAL FACE. IT'S, IT'S ONE FOR ONE. AND INSTEAD OF TAKING SIGNS DOWN, THEIR PROPOSAL IS PAID MONEY. AND WOULD THAT ALSO APPLY TO CLEAR CHANNEL? IT WOULD APPLY IF IT'S ADOPTED, IT WOULD BE APPLIED TO EVERYBODY THAT OWNS SIGNS IN SAN ANTONIO. SO THE, THE, SO THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TO TAKE DOWN ANY OTHER SIGNS THE WAY THE PROPOSAL IS CURRENTLY DRAFTED. THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TO TAKE DOWN ANY SIGNS. YES. WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS WHAT WE'RE GOING TO RECOMMEND IS YET TO BE DETERMINED. AND THAT'S WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO IS SEND THAT TO THE WORKING GROUP, LET THEM, YOU KNOW, GRIND THROUGH SOME SAUSAGE AND SEE IF THERE IS SOME, YOU KNOW, CONSENSUS FROM THE GROUP THAT WOULD THEN BE PRESENTED TO THIS COMMITTEE. WE WOULD GO THROUGH THE FULL VETTING PROCESS HERE AND THEN MAKE A RECOMMENDATION TO THE, I CALL IT THE BIG BOARD. I I JUST HAVE ONE QUESTION. HOW MANY SIGNS WILL THIS IMPACT? WELL, IT DEPENDS ON, UH, HOW MANY SIGNS THESE SIGN COMPANIES THAT ARE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE PROGRAM IDENTIFY AS TARGET SIGNS. UM, I CAN'T SPEAK, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, WE'RE LIMITED TO 27 LOCATIONS. AND SO OF THOSE LOCATIONS WE HAVEN'T, UM, EX WE HAVEN'T DECIDED ON WHICH ONES ARE THE FOCUS IF WE WERE TO PASS IT. BUT YOU'D HAVE TO IMAGINE, UM, SO PERHAPS STAFF CAN BRING THAT INFORMATION MM-HMM. TO THE WORKING GROUP OR TO WHOEVER. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW MANY IT IS. YEAH, I MEAN THE POTENTIALLY I, I WOULD ASK THEM TO DO THAT, BUT THAT COULD BE HARD BECAUSE TO PUT UP A DI IT COMPANY A HAS THREE SIGNS THAT ARE 500 FEET APART. OKAY. ACCORDING, [01:35:01] AND THERE'S NO OTHER SIGNS BESIDES THOSE THREE SIGNS, 500 THEY COULD TAKE UNDER THIS. THEY COULD, AND BECAUSE IT'S LOCATED ON A HIGHWAY TO PUT UP A DIGITAL SIGN, YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE, YOU KNOW, A THOUSAND OR 2000 FEET AWAY. SO IF THEY WANT TO TAKE THE DI PUT THE DIGITAL SIGN UP, THEY'RE GONNA HAVE TO TAKE TWO SIGNS DOWN. BUT IF THERE'S ONE SIGN IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE THAT THERE'S NO SIGNS ANYWHERE NEAR IT, IT WOULD BE CHANGE IT OUT, PAY THE FEE YOU'RE DONE. AND SO IT MAY BE A COMBINATION OF BOTH THAT ENDS UP HAPPENING THAT IF WE'RE GONNA RECOMMEND MORE DIGITAL SIGNS, YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE THAT YOU CAN DO IT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER WAY OR A THIRD WAY, AND ALL THREE ARE LEGAL. AND THEN THE COMPANIES WOULD PICK IF THEY WANT TO CONVERT WHICH ONE. SO IT COULD INCLUDE TAKING SIGNS DOWN, IT COULD INCLUDE PAYING A FEE, IT, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THE COMMITTEE WANTS TO COME UP WITH OR THE WORKING GROUP, UH, YOU KNOW, TO JUST VET IT OUT. YOU KNOW, YOU COULD HAVE TWO OR THREE MEETINGS, FOUR MEETINGS, FIVE MEETINGS, AND REALLY GET EDUCATED ON THAT. AND, YOU KNOW, WE CAN GIVE, YOU KNOW, THE, UH, NUMBER OF BILLBOARDS, I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU CAN, WE HAVE THE INFORMATION TO KNOW HOW FAR APART THEY ARE. SO THAT'S, IS THAT CORRECT? WE DON'T HAVE DISTANCE. I MEAN WE HAVE THAT ON THAT MAP. SO CAN, CAN WE, CAN WE JUST PUT THIS TO THE WORKING GROUP AND MOVE ON TO SIX? YEAH. OKAY. SO NEXT ITEM REAL FAST. UH, SO TALKING ABOUT WORKING GROUPS, AND I KNOW THIS IS GONNA COME UP ON ANOTHER AGENDA ITEM AND IT'S KIND OF COME UP ORIGINALLY UNDER MICHAEL RUST. SO I'VE BEEN SPEAKING WITH LEGAL, AND HERE'S THE WAY THIS WOULD HAVE TO WORK. SO ULTIMATELY THIS IS A COMMITTEE OF A, OF A FULL BOARD OF THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. SO WE HAVE TO WATCH OUT FOR WALKING QUORUMS AT ALL TIMES. SO THE LIMITATIONS OF THESE WORKING GROUPS ARE ANYBODY CAN BE PART OF THAT EXCEPT FOR BOARD MEMBERS. WE CAN ONLY HAVE A MAX OF TWO BOARD MEMBERS ON THAT IN ANY OF THESE MEETINGS. WE GET BEYOND THAT. WE'RE NOW MOVING INTO A WALKING QUORUM, AT WHICH POINT I NEED TO HAVE OPEN MEETING OUT THERE. UM, WE HAVE TO HAVE INTERPRETERS, WE HAVE TO HAVE IT, UH, VI UM, VIDEO AND AUDIO RECORDED AND, AND PUBLISHED. SO WHAT WE NEED TO BE WORKING ON, AND WHEN I SAY BOARD MEMBERS, SO THAT'S APPOINTED COMMITTEE MEMBERS. SO THE NON NON APPOINTED COMMITTEE MEMBERS, THEY CAN SHOW UP AS MANY AS THEY WANT TO. THAT'S NOT GONNA AFFECT A, A QUORUM ISSUE. SO AS WE LOOK AT ALL OF THESE, WE HAVE TO, WOULD IT INCLUDE ALTERNATES? THAT WOULD INCLUDE ALTERNATES, YEAH. OKAY. CORRECT. SO NO MORE THAN TWO OFFICIAL I WOULD SAY ON ANY WOULD YEAH. BOARD MEMBERS WORKING GROUP. YEAH. YEAH. OKAY. THANK YOU. YOU ALL. NEXT ITEM. OKAY, WE'RE GONNA TAKE A BREAK. TAKE A BREAK. BEFORE WE TAKE A BREAK, CAN I JUST, UM, ASK THAT WE TABLE THIS AND PUT THIS TO A WORKING GROUP? UM, ITEM SIX. WHAT IS ITEM SIX? IT'S THE HILL COUNTRY GATE. YEAH. IF YOU I'LL, I'LL TAKE THAT. GOOD, THANK YOU. WHEN WE RE DO THAT BEFORE WE BREAK, WANNA DO IT? YOU WANNA DO IT BEFORE WE BREAK? DO YOU WANNA DO IT BEFORE WE BREAK? OKAY, SO I, I WOULD NOW CALL THE MEETING BACK INTO SESSION AND THEN WE'LL TAKE A BREAK ON ITEM NUMBER SIX. UH, THERE WAS A WORKING GROUP THAT MET YESTERDAY THAT HAD DISCUSSION ABOUT ALL THE PROCESS THAT WAS USED TO ADOPT THE ORDINANCE. UH, THE UH, TWO THINGS HAPPENED SOMEWHERE BETWEEN WHEN THE GROUP MET THE STAKE, ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS MET AND AGREED TO WHAT THE ORDINANCE WAS. IT GOT TO THE ZONING COMMISSION, A CHANGE WAS MADE AT THE ZONING COMMISSION, AND THAT ZONING COMMISSION RECOMMENDATION WENT TO CITY COUNCIL AND WAS JUST BASICALLY ADOPTED. OKAY. AND SO, YOU KNOW, IN HINDSIGHT THE SIGN INDUSTRY SHOULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE MORE DILIGENT IN FOLLOWING IT THROUGH. AND THE CITY STAFF SHOULD ALSO BEEN MORE DILIGENT WHEN THE CHANGE WAS MADE OF NOTIFYING THEM OF THE CHANGE. AND, YOU KNOW, ONE DEPARTMENT DIDN'T LET ANOTHER DEPARTMENT KNOW THAT IT EVEN EXISTED. SO THAT'S WHERE WE ARE TODAY IN THAT THEY DIDN'T FIND OUT UNTIL A COUPLE OF YEARS LATER THAT [01:40:01] THEY WERE APPROVING SIGNS THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN APPROVED UNDER THE ORDINANCE. SO WHAT WE'RE GONNA TRY TO DO IS PUT TOGETHER A DIFFERENT WORKING GROUP THAT IS GOING TO, UH, CONSIST OF THE PEOPLE THAT WERE AT THE MEETING YESTERDAY. PLUS, IF ANYBODY ELSE WANTS TO GET INVOLVED, IF YOU'LL JUST SUBMIT YOUR NAME TO JEREMY, HE'LL GET IT TO ME. AND BECAUSE IT'S KIND OF UNOFFICIAL, WE'LL JUST ADAM PROVIDED THAT THE REPRESENTATION KIND OF STAYS BALANCED SO THAT IT DOESN'T GET OUTTA HAND ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. UH, AND LET THEM COME BACK TO MAKE A RECOMMENDATION TO US. MY GUESS IS THAT, UH, EVENTUALLY IT'S GONNA HAVE TO END UP GOING BACK TO A MODIFICATION OF THE, THE GATEWAY ORDINANCE, WHICH STAFF WILL COME AND TELL US EXACTLY HOW, BUT UNTIL WE GET TO THE POINT WHETHER WE'RE GONNA DO IT OR NOT. SO WITH THAT BEING SAID, THAT IS HOW I'M HANDLING IT. UNLESS ONE OF THE MEMBERS HAS A OBJECTION SEEING NONE. UH, MEETING WE'RE DO YOU WANT A BREAK? I WAS JUST GONNA SAY, IS THERE NOT GONNA BE A MOTION TO SEND THIS? NO, NO MOTIONS NEEDED. I WAS JUST GONNA ADD THE, THE, THE DISCUSSION POINT THAT WE HAD, THAT STAFF WAS GONNA EX ASSIST WITH STAKEHOLDER INVOLVEMENT TO ENSURE THAT THERE IS ADDITIONAL ENGAGEMENT AND INVITATION TO INDIVIDUALS IN THAT AREA, UM, TO BE IMPACTED FOR THIS SUBCOMMITTEE. THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WE DISCUSSED. SO THAT'S FINE. I JUST WANNA PUT THAT ON THE RECORD. WHATEVER PROCESS THE GROUP WANTS TO USE TO EXPAND IT. I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHO'S ON THE GROUP AND WHEN THEY'RE MEETING AND IF THERE'S NOT TWO MEMBERS I MAY SHOW UP NOW AND THEN TO JUST SEE HOW THE PROCESS IS GOING. BUT YOU KNOW, I WOULD, I WOULD SUGGEST THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT NEED TO BE ON THE COMMITTEE THAT REPRESENT THAT AREA, THAT YOU, UH, LET US KNOW OF THAT FACT. DISCUSS THAT SEPARATELY. YOU NO, Y'ALL CAN OUTSIDE OF THIS MEETING, IF YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT YOU THINK NEED TO BE THERE, JUST UH, LET JEREMY KNOW AND JEREMY WILL LET ME KNOW AND WE WILL MAKE AN INVITATION AND PUT THEM ON THE LIST OF WHO YOU KNOW IS GOING TO BE INVITED AND THEN IT IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I WOULD CAUTION YOU ON, IF THE ROOM GETS TOO BIG WITH TOO MANY PEOPLE, YOU CAN'T HAVE A DISCUSSION. SO THAT'S WHY WE REALLY WANT THE STAKEHOLDERS TO HAVE THAT. AND THEN I WOULD SAY AT SOME POINT IN THE PROCESS, IF WE ARE GONNA MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR BIG TIME CHANGES THAT WE MAY EVEN HAVE, YOU KNOW, A PUBLIC HEARING AT THIS MEETING, YOU KNOW, AFTER WE GET IT FLESHED OUT A LITTLE BIT MORE BEFORE WE MAKE A FINAL DECISION. OKAY, THANK YOU. WE'RE ON BREAK. I, I'D LIKE TO CALL THE MEETING BACK TO ORDER SUBWAY SANDWICHES. OKAY, WE'RE IN THE HOME STRETCH. ITEM NUMBER SEVEN SIX. OH, THAT'S WHAT WE JUST DID, RIGHT? NO, UH, NO CHAIR. THIS IS UH, ITEM NUMBER SEVEN. SO ITEM NUMBER SEVEN, CHAPTER 28 AMENDMENT ITEM 12 DASH ONE, EXTERNAL REQUEST TO ADD SECTION 28 DASH 54 E TO SECTION 28 54 DIGITAL DISPLAYS A SECTION THAT WOULD ALLOW THE INSTALLATION OF QUALIFYING SECOND DIGITAL DISPLAY UNDER SECTION 28 5 4 D TO BE INSTALLED WITHIN NINE MONTHS OF THE ADOPTION OF THE UPDATED CHAPTER 28. SO THIS, I WILL SAY ULTIMATELY AND TIM, YOU KNOW, FEEL FREE TO JUMP IN AT ANY TIME. THIS IS A REQUEST FROM CHANNEL. SO THIS GOES BACK TO OUR PRESENTATION OF THE TWO DIGITAL SIGNS THAT WERE ORIGINALLY AWARDED UNDER THE 2019 ORDINANCE FOR CLEAR CHANNEL TO DUAL FACE THEIR EXISTING DIGITAL SIGNS THAT THE STATE DECLINED THAT PERMIT. SO THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO BE INSTALLED. THERE WAS SOME LANGUAGE WITHIN THAT ORIGINAL ORDINANCE THAT HAD SOME SPECIFIC TIMELINES THAT THEY HAD TO MEET IN ORDER TO STILL BE ABLE TO PULL A PERMIT FOR THAT SECOND DIGITAL PHASE. IF THE STATE, UH, CITY MOVES FORWARD WITH BECOMING STATE CERTIFIED AND THERE'S, THROUGH THAT PROCESS, THEY ARE ULTIMATELY ALLOWED TO INSTALL THOSE, UH, SECOND PHASES [01:45:01] ON THOSE DIGITAL SIGNS, THIS WOULD JUST ALLOW US TO KIND OF PUT SOME LANGUAGE IN THERE THAT EXTENDS THAT MOTION, THAT TIME COMMITMENT THAT WAS ORIGINALLY MISSED AT THIS POINT. AND I CAN PULL THAT LANGUAGE UP, BUT IT REALLY, IT WAS MORE OF A CLARIFICATION. IT DOESN'T REALLY IMPACT WHAT THE ORDINANCE ALLOWS, IT REALLY JUST ALLOWS THEM TO GO FORWARD WITH IT. BUT TIM, FEEL FREE. YEAH. SO, UH, I, WE'VE HAD A DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS FOR WEEKS THROUGH AT LEAST TWO MORE TWO PREVIOUS MEETINGS. I BELIEVE THE CONSENSUS WAS IS THAT THE CITY NEGOTIATED A DEAL AND THROUGH NO FAULT OF CLEAR CHANNEL THEY COULDN'T PUT IT UP BECAUSE THE STATE CHANGED THE RULES. SO IF WE CAN, IF ONE OF THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE, MAKE A MOTION FOR APPROVAL. THANK YOU. I SECOND. SECOND. OKAY. ANY DISCUSSION BY ANYONE IN THE ROOM? ALL IN FAVOR, PLEASE SAY AYE. AYE. AYE. OPPOSED? AND THEN FOR MY, UH, FOR NON-VOTING PEOPLE, WE WOULD LIKE TO RECORD YOUR VOTES SEPARATELY. SO IN FAVOR, AYE. AYE. AYE. OKAY. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. CHAIR ITEM NUMBER EIGHT, . WELL, BUT I DON'T WANT ANYBODY TO FEEL RAILROADED, SO IF YOU HAVE A COMMENT. OKAY. MR. MR. CHAIR J, JUST AGAIN, I GUESS I'M GONNA USE BIANCA'S TERM OF POINT OF CLARIFICATION AND I DO APPRECIATE THE COMMITTEE'S VOTE ON THIS. THIS IS INEXORABLY TIED UP WITH THAT CERTIFICATION QUESTION TOO. YEAH, WE JUST SO BE SURE IT GOES TO THE BIG BOARD IF WE DECIDE NOT TO ADOPT THE OTHER ONE. THIS, THIS, WELL NO, IT WOULD JUST GIVE YOU NINE MONTHS SO THAT IF YOU GET A CHANGE IN HEART BY THE TDOT, THAT WOULD ALSO ALLOW YOU TO GO FORWARD. OKAY, THANK YOU. ALRIGHT, UH, CHAIR. SO THIS IS THE UH, LAST ITEM. THIS IS AN ONCE AGAIN KIND OF A NEW ITEM THAT WE'RE BRINGING TO THE COMMITTEE. THIS IS CHAPTER 28 AMENDMENT ITEM SIX DASH ONE AND EXTERNAL REQUEST REVIEW. SECTION SIX, UH, 28 DASH FOUR THREE DIGITAL DISPLAYS THE GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR DIGITAL DISPLAYS AND THE INTENSITY LEVELS, KNITS AND FOOT CANDLE MEASUREMENT REQUIREMENTS FOR ON AND OFF-PREMISE DIGITAL SIGNS TO DETERMINE IF A REDUCTION IN THESE VALUES SHOULD BE MADE. SO, AND I KNOW THIS KINDA GOT BROUGHT UP A LITTLE BIT EARLIER, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS KNITS? WHAT ARE FOOT CANDLES? SO I'M GONNA GO TO THE CODE SECTION FOR THAT. AND YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW I WANT TO KEEP THIS FAIRLY HIGH LEVEL AND GET SOME GUIDANCE FROM THE COMMITTEE ON HOW Y'ALL WANT TO COME BACK, UH, TO LOOK AT THIS. SO WASN'T THIS PUT BACK IN WHEN THE DIGITAL ORDINANCE WAS, UH, WAS ADOPTED AS 0.3 FOOT CANDLES OVER AMBIENT LIGHT, WHICH IS THE NA NATIONAL STANDARD? WHY DOES, WHY DO WE WANNA CHANGE THAT? THIS IS NOT COUNCILMAN PERRY'S. THIS IS, YES, THIS CAME IN FROM COUNCILMAN PERRY. OKAY. AND I CAN, I'M HAPPY TO PULL UP HIS, UH, REQUEST THAT WAS SUBMITTED AND WE CAN LOOK AT THAT. SO MAYBE I'LL START WITH THAT REAL FAST TO ANSWER COMMITTEE'S QUESTION. SO THE CURRENT, LET'S JUST START WHERE WE ARE TODAY. THE CURRENT CODE IS WHAT? FOR EITHER, WELL, SO WE HAVE TWO MEASUREMENTS AND I'M SORRY I DIDN'T MEAN TO CUT YOU OFF ADELE, BUT I'M MEAN, I'M PULLING IT UP RIGHT HERE. SO WE HAVE TWO MEASUREMENT REQUIREMENTS AND IT'S CONSISTENT BOTH ON-PREMISE AND OFF-PREMISE. SO WE CAN, WE CAN LOOK AT THAT AND THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE THE COVID MEASUREMENTS THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT UNDER THE M L L D. SO THIS IS 100% CHAPTER 28 REQUIREMENT FOR THE WHOLE CITY OF SANTON, UH, SAN ANTONIO. WE HAVE BOTH THE KNITS MEASUREMENT, THESE ARE THE LIMITS TO THAT, BOTH DAYTIME AND NIGHTTIME. SO WE GO OUT THERE AND WE'LL DO A MEASUREMENT. WE LOOK AT EACH ONE OF THESE, UH, DIFFERENT COLOR SPECTRUMS, MEASURE THOSE AND TAKE DOWN THAT READING. IF IT'S ABOVE ANY OF THESE, THEN IT'S A FAILURE. AND WE DO FIVE MEASUREMENTS EACH TIME WE GO OUT TO LOOK AT IT. SO WHEN SOMETHING'S MEASURED IS INITIAL PERMIT IN ORDER TO BE APPROVED AND TURNED ON, WE TAKE AN INITIAL MEASUREMENT. ONCE IT PASSES, UH, THOSE FIVE READINGS AT ONE TIME, NEVER EXCEEDING ANY ONE OF THESE FOUR VALUES, THEN THEIR PERMIT'S APPROVED AND THEY CAN GO TO OPERATION. ANYTIME WE HAVE A COMPLAINT ABOUT A DIGITAL SIGN, WE GO OUT THERE AND RUN THOSE SAME MEASUREMENTS AGAIN ALWAYS AT NIGHTTIME. AND IF THEY HAVE ANY FAILURES, WE WORK WITH THE CUSTOMER TO GET 'EM, UH, WITHIN THOSE REQUIREMENTS, THESE, THESE MAXIMUM INTENSITIES UNDER KNITS. SO THAT'S THE KNITS MEASUREMENT. THEN WE ALSO HAVE A SEPARATE METER THAT READS THE FOOT CANDLES. SO THE FOOT CANDLES ARE ANOTHER FORM OF MEASUREMENT AND BASED OFF OF [01:50:02] SPECIFICATIONS ON THE SIZE OF THE SIGN, HOW FAR OR HOW TALL IT IS, UM, WE TAKE A MEASUREMENT OF THE FOOT CANDLES OF THAT SIGN BASED OFF OF THIS TABLE HERE. SO SIZE OF SIGN, HOW FAR AWAY WE GET FROM IT, TAKE THAT MEASUREMENT AND THAT'S 0.3 FOOT CANDLES ABOVE AMBIENT. SO WE TAKE AN AMBIENT READING, UH, OF THE EXACT SAME LOCATION THAT WE'RE TAKING THE READING AT. WE'LL DO AN AMBIENT, THEN WE'LL DO A MEASUREMENT OF THE SIGN, SUBTRACT THE TWO. IF IT'S ABOVE 0.3 FOOT CANDLES, THEN THEY HAVE TO REDUCE THE, THE BRIGHTNESS OF THAT SIGN. THE ONLY THING WE HAVE INDIFFERENT TO THAT IS ON RESIDENTIAL. SO THIS IS TAKING A MEASUREMENT ANYWHERE FROM THAT SIGN BASED OFF OF THIS FOOTAGE FROM THAT SIGN. BUT THEN IF YOU'RE NEXT TO A RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY, THAT RESIDENT, THAT SIGN CANNOT HAVE A DISPLAY OF 0.2 FOOT CANDLES. SO A LITTLE BIT MORE STRINGENT ONTO THAT RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY. SO WE GO TO THE, THE PROPERTY LINE FOR THAT RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY AND DO THE EXACT SAME MEASUREMENT NO MATTER HOW FAR AWAY WE ARE FROM THE SIGN. SO WHILE A A HUNDRED FOOT SIGN, WE'D BE 150 FEET AWAY. IF IT'S RIGHT NEXT TO A RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY, WE'D BE, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THAT DISTANCE IS FOR THAT MEASUREMENT. AND DEFINE RESIDENTIAL WOULD BE SINGLE FAMILY HOME DUPLEX OR WOULD THAT INCLUDE APARTMENT IS THAT DIDN'T INCLUDE COMMERCIAL. SO THAT WOULD BE ZONING RESIDENTIAL, CORRECT. AND NOT SO A ZONING COMMERCIAL HOTEL THAT WE WOULDN'T WORRY ABOUT. SO IT'S ANYTHING SOUND OR CORRECT? THAT'S CORRECT. OKAY. AND, AND LET'S START WITH SIGN INDUSTRY. WHAT'S THERE NOW? TODAY IS WORKING. OKAY, ART, SO, OH MARK, SO JUST TO CLARIFY FOR THE, THE, THE UM, LADIES AND GREG , SORRY, WHAT WERE YOU GONNA SAY? ? SO CATCH THERE DAN. THE KNITS ARE FOR BILLBOARDS AND THEN THE FOOT CATTLES ARE FOR, UH, STATIC SIGNS. JUST FOR CLARIFICATION. WELL NO LIDDELL, WE DO TAKE THAT MEASUREMENT BUT FOR BOTH ON THE DIGITAL, WE DO BOTH, CORRECT? YEAH. THAT, THAT SECTION I WAS REFERENCING THAT IS, THAT IS DIGITAL BILLBOARD OR I'M SORRY, DIGITAL SIGN NOT BILLBOARDS. THAT IS ON-PREMISE AND OFF-PREMISE. BOTH OF THOSE MEASUREMENTS ARE USED FOR A PASS FAIL CRITERIA. LIDDELL, THE DIFFERENCE IS YOU CAN'T TAKE A KNIT MEASUREMENT FROM A CONVENTIONAL BILLBOARD. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE 'CAUSE IT'S NOT A POINT, UH, A POINT SOURCE OF LIGHT. YEAH. SO HOW CAN YOU DO THAT TO US? TAKE A KNIT READING ON A STATIC SIGN. UM, WE DON'T DO A KNIT ON A STATIC SIGN, BUT WE DO FOOT CANDLES FOR ALL SIGNS BUT KNIT ONLY FOR A DIGITAL. BUT WE DO ALSO DO THE FOOT CANDLE SO IT COULD GO . SO IS THERE, IS THERE A LIGHTING REQUIREMENT AT ALL FOR NON-DIGITAL SCIENCE? NO. AND THAT'S WHERE THAT 0.3 CORRECT OVER UH, YEAH. SO ONCE AGAIN, IF IT'S NOT DIGITAL THEN IT'S A FOOT CON CANDLE REQUIREMENT AND THAT'S THE 0.3. OKAY, THANK YOU. OR 0.2 FOR RESIDENTIAL. AND SO, BECAUSE I CAN'T SEE THAT, CAN YOU JUST READ WHAT THEY'RE ASKING REAL QUICK? CORRECT. SO, UH, THIS IS WHAT CAME IN. I AM CONCERNED WITH THE BRIGHTNESS ALLOWED IN THE CURRENT SIGN CODE RELATED TO ON AND OFF-PREMISE SIGNS AT NIGHT. THE BRIGHTNESS OF SOME OF THE DIGITAL SIGNS IS SUCH THAT IT IS DISTRACTING TO DRIVERS IN CREATING AN UNSAFE SITUATION. THE BRIGHTNESS ALLOWED BY THE CURRENT CODE SHOULD BE REVIEWED AND AMENDED. I'M ALSO CONCERNED ABOUT THE INCREASED SI USE OF THESE DIGITAL SIGNS ALL ACROSS THE COMMUNITY, ESPECIALLY IN AREAS AROUND KENT BULLETS, WHICH WAS VERY STRICT LIGHTING REQUIREMENTS. IF THESE DIGITAL SIGNS ARE NOT PROPERLY ADJUSTED, IT COULD IMPACT THE EMISSIONS OF CAMP BULLIS AT WHICH IN TURN HARM OUR LOCAL ECONOMY. I BELIEVE THE BRIGHTNESS OF BOTH AN ON AND OFF DIGITAL BILLBOARD SHOULD BE ADJUSTED. UH, NOW WE DID ASK FOR A LITTLE BIT OF CLARIFICATION 'CAUSE I THINK THIS WAS BROUGHT UP BY THE COMMITTEE WHEN WE KIND OF DID AN OVERVIEW OF THIS, OF WAS THIS REQUEST LOOKING AT SPECIFICALLY THE M L O D FOR CAMP BULLIS, BUT THIS IS A UNIVERSAL FOR THE CITY APPROACH. THE THE CITY, UH, THE COUNCILMAN IS LOOKING AT US TO, YOU KNOW, REVIEW THE LOUD BRIGHTNESS OF SIGNS AND YOU KNOW, IS THERE A REASON TO BRING THOSE DOWN? YES. IF I CAN BE KIND OF WONKY ABOUT THIS, THE TERM BRIGHTNESS IS AN OPINION, IT'S A SUBJECTIVE OPINION WHERE SOMEBODY'S GOING, OH, THAT'S TOO BRIGHT. OH, SOMEBODY ELSE WILL GO. NO, THAT'S NOT BRIGHT ENOUGH. THE ONLY REALLY WAY THAT YOU CAN ADDRESS LUMINANCE IS THROUGH A QUANTITATIVE LIKE KNITS LIKE, UH, UH, FOOT CANDLES OR, OR KELVIN. UH, HE, THERE'S GOTTA BE SOME QUANTITATIVE WAY FOR THEM TO EXPLAIN WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT SO THAT WE CAN ADDRESS IT IN A QUANTITATIVE WAY, POSSIBLY HOW TO FIX IT. YEAH. SO THAT'S WHY BRIGHTNESS DOESN'T HELP. YEAH. CORRECT. YEAH. OKAY. SO, SO, AND LET ME UH, ON THE NEXT AGENDA OR SLIDE HERE, SO THAT, THAT'S KIND OF WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT, RIGHT? SO ONE, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS, WHAT ARE OTHER CITIES REQUIRING AND WHERE DO WE FALL WITHIN THAT? SO WHAT WE DID IS WE TRY TO REACH OUT, SEE, UH, DO SOME RESEARCH, SEE WHAT OTHER SIGN CODES ACROSS THE STATE AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE AT FOR THESE READINGS. NOW I DO NEED TO, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SEE [01:55:01] A LOT OF THESE HAVE, UM, A FOOTNOTE NEXT TO 'EM. I'M HAPPY TO GO OVER THOSE WITH YOU. 'CAUSE NOT EVERYTHING'S APPLES TO APPLES. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE LEARNING. WE'RE LOOKING AT ALL THESE, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES WHEN THEY SAY 1.1 FOOT CANDLES, THAT'S NOT DOING THE EXACT SAME MEASUREMENT LOCATION WE ARE, THEY HAVE OTHER REQUIREMENTS. SO IT IS, IT'S KIND OF HARD TO PUT IT INTO A TABLE FORM, BUT WE'RE TRYING TO AT LEAST SHOW YOU IN THE BALLPARK WHERE DO WE FALL, UH, WITH BOTH THE FOOT CANDLE MEASUREMENTS AND THE KNITS MEASUREMENTS. IS IS DALLAS ON THERE? NO, DALLAS. THEY ARE. SO SOME CODES DON'T HAVE KNITS. THEY ONLY WOULD SPECIFY FOOT CANDLES. SO, SO THAT'S WHY IT IS NOT, THE CITIES AREN'T THE SAME ON BOTH ONES. WE WERE TRYING TO FIND, SINCE WE, OUR, OUR REQUIREMENT IS LESS RE IS MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN AUSTIN'S. IS THAT, DID I READ THAT CORRECT? FOOT ON THE FOOT CANDLES? CORRECT. LET ME, UH, DOUBLE CHECK. I DON'T THINK WE HAVE AN ASTERISK THERE. SO I MEAN, I WOULD'VE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AND ONCE AGAIN, I'M, IT'S NOT ALWAYS APPLES TO APPLES. WHERE'S THAT MEASUREMENT POINT FROM? OKAY. IT'S, IT'S HARD TO PUT INTO A QUANTIFYING. SO HE'S DEALING WITH DIGITAL SIGNS IS THE REQUEST, CORRECT? THAT IS CORRECT. AND WE, IT'S BEEN LIKE I, WHICH COMMITTEE I WAS AT, BUT Y'ALL MADE A BRIEFING TO US THAT YOU, AND WE'RE GONNA GET MORE INFORMATION, BUT YOU KNOW, DID HE IDENTIFY THE SIGNS? HE HAS A PROBLEM SO WE CAN HAVE A FOOT CANDLE READING SO WE KNOW. YES, WE DO. WE DID. HE GAVE US FOUR SIGNS. WE WENT OUT AND, AND LOOKED AT THOSE FOUR SIGNS AND, AND HERE CAN YOU GIVE ART THE MIC? YEAH, YOU GET TO SPEAK . I WANT FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE. I WHAT? YOU WANT ME TO PULL THAT UP? YES. I DON'T, I DON'T HAVE IT ON ME. OH, I DON'T HAVE IT. OKAY. MR. SHERIFF DE ARTURO. YEAH, WE DID GO OUT AND, AND THE THREE, ACTUALLY THE FOUR THAT WERE IDENTIFIED WERE, ARE RIGHT THE SPA CRAFTERS ON, UH, 2 81 REDLAND. YEAH, LET'S NOT SAY THE NAMES. LET'S JUST SAY JUST WENT OUT TO SEE. SO WE HAD FOUR OUT OF THE FOUR AS FAR AS, UH, THE AMBIENT LIGHTING, THE FOOT CANDLES, THEY ALL PASSED. THREE OF THEM FELL ON AND ONE OF 'EM WAS OFF. I'M SORRY. YEAH, ONE OF 'EM WAS OFF. THE OTHER, THE OTHER THREE PASSED. AND THE KNIT READINGS ON THE FOOT CANDLES, THE KNIT READINGS, ONE OF, UH, TWO OF 'EM FAILED. OKAY. SO WHAT CAN YOU, OKAY, SO CAN YOU EXPLAIN SOMEBODY, EXPLAIN WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IS. OKAY. SO AND THOSE ARE ALL IN DIGITAL SIGNS, CORRECT? ART, YES, SIR. OKAY. SO MOST, NO, ALL DIGITAL SIGNS HAVE A AUTOMATIC DIMMING DEVICE IN THEIR SIGNAGE. OKAY. THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE, THAT YOU CAN, BUT YOU CAN OVERRIDE 'EM ON YOUR COMPUTER. OKAY. SO IF A, IF A CITIZEN SEES A SIGN AND IT'S TOO BRIGHT, CALL THE CITY, ART WILL GO OUT THERE, YOU KNOW, AND USUALLY THEY'LL TAKE CARE OF IT, THEY'LL TURN IT DOWN. BUT SOME PEOPLE WON'T DO THAT IF THEY'RE, IF THEY'RE, UH, THEIR PHOTO CELL OR THEIR DIMMING EYE IS DEFECTIVE, IT'LL JUST OVERRIDE. BUT, SO YOU CAN, THERE'S A DEVICE IN THESE MACHINES THAT ACTUALLY DIMMS THEM DOWN AT NIGHT AND BRIGHTEN THEM, BRIGHTENS THE SIGN DURING THE DAY. OKAY. SO BUT HERE, HERE IS, AND YOU TOOK THE RE OR YOU TOOK THE READINGS AT NIGHT, CORRECT? THAT IS CORRECT. OKAY. SO IF YOU WERE ESTABLISHING A STANDARD AS TO BRIGHT, NOT TOO BRIGHT, WHICH IS A BETTER METHOD OF MEASURING THE BRIGHTNESS, THE FOOT CANDLES, WHEN YOU'RE STANDING AWAY FROM IT OR SOME KNIT READING, OR DOES IT AND THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING, YES. IT'S, IT'S TWO DIFFERENT MEASUREMENTS. A KNIT IS A, THE AMOUNT OF LIGHT EMITTED AT THE POINT SOURCE. IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU HAVE A KNIT GUN AND YOU POINTED IT AT THAT SCREEN, IT'S GONNA, IT'S GONNA HIT EXACTLY THE PIXEL AND IT'S GONNA TELL YOU HOW MUCH LUMINANCE IS COMING OUT OF THAT POINT SOURCE. A FOOT CANDLE IS HOW MUCH YOU PERCEIVE FROM THE DISTANCE IN YOUR, INTO YOUR EYE. SO YOU'RE LITERALLY MAKING TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF MEASUREMENTS. SO IF, AND I AM ASSUMING DIFFERENT COLOR LEDS HAVE DIFFERENT COLOR KNITS, DIFFERENT AMOUNT OF KNITS. SO IF I POINT THE GUN AT THE SIGN AND I HIT A WHITE OR A LIGHT BLUE VERSUS HITTING A BROWN BLACK OR THAT, YOU'LL GET A DIFFERENT MEASUREMENT. THAT'D BEEN A LITTLE TOO EXACT IN THAT IT'S NOT, I I SAID THAT THAT'S NOT [02:00:01] EXACTLY, IT'S A VERY SMALL POINT THOUGH. OKAY. IT'S, IT'S A GROUP, BUT IT'S A SMALL GROUP. BUT WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT FROM, YOU KNOW, ADMITTING LIGHT AT LEAST THIS WAY TOWARDS SOMEBODY ELSE'S PROPERTY THAT, OR THE CAR THAT SAYS IT'S TOO BRIGHT WOULD BE FOOT CANDLES. WELL, FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW, THE STANDARD THAT YOU SEE OF 0.3 FOOT CANDLES IS, WAS ESTABLISHED ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO BY THE INDUSTRY AFTER SOME LIGHTING STUDIES THAT SHOWED THAT THAT WAS AN APPROPRIATE DISTANCE AT 250 FEET FROM A BILLBOARD 0.3 FOOT CANDLES OVER AMBIENT. BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT'S BEING PERCEIVED TO, TO US WHAT'S HITTING THE EYE IS WHAT'S IMPORTANT. HOW MUCH IS BEING ADMITTED IS NOT SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE THAT WILL CHANGE BETWEEN NIGHT AND DAY. OBVIOUSLY DAY THEY'RE HIGHER. SO WE, WE USE FOOT CANDLES. OKAY. SO YEAH, SO I, I MEAN SO THEY PASSED OFF ALL THE SI NO, NO. THEY PASSED THE FOOT CANDLE TEST. THAT IS CORRECT. THREE OF THREE OF THE FOUR, ONE OF THE FOUR WAS OFF, OFF. SO WE DID NOT GET A CHANCE TO MEASURE THAT ONE. OKAY. SO THREE OF THE FOURS PASSED THE . LET'S TALK ABOUT THE THREE THAT WERE ACTUALLY, YOU COULD GET INFORMATION. SO THREE PASSED THE, ALL THREE PASSED THE FOOT CANDLE TEST. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE READINGS OF THE TWO THAT DIDN'T PASS THE KNIT TEST WERE THEY APOLOGIZE. WE, THANKS. YEAH, HE'S GONNA EMAIL OKAY. ME REAL FAST. BUT SEE, I THINK MARK, AT THIS POINT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE, WE'RE INDUSTRY STANDARDS WITH, WITH THE UNITED STATES. I THINK THIS IS MORE OF A ENFORCEMENT REG, UH, RULE THAN CHANGE IN THE ORDINANCE. YOU KNOW, OTHERWISE WHY ARE WE EVEN HAVING A, WHY DO WE NEED A SIGN DEPARTMENT THEN IF THEY'RE NOT ENFORCING WHAT'S ON THE BOOKS ALREADY? YEAH. BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, PART OF MY PROBLEM IS, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, HAVING TO MEET TWO DIFFERENT STANDARDS AND IF YOU'RE, IF YOU MEET ONE AND YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT SAYS 7,000 KNITS, BUT YOU KNOW, YOU'RE, YOU'RE, YOU HIT 7,010 OR WHATEVER THE, THE DEAL, BUT YOU'RE, THE FOOT CANDLES IS FINE. TO ME, THE FOOT CANDLES I WOULD THINK IS MORE RELEVANT THAN, YOU KNOW, HOW BRIGHT THE SIGN IS BECAUSE, AND THIS IS THE EXACT SAME, TIM, AND YOU CAN BACK ME UP ON THIS. I THINK THIS IS THE EXACT SAME CONVERSATION WE HAD BACK IN 2010 KNITS VERSUS FOOT CANDLES. HOW ARE THEY GONNA DO IT? HOW ARE THEY GONNA READ IT? AND THAT WAS, THAT WAS ALWAYS THE CONFUSION. YEAH, BECAUSE IT, IT, YOU KNOW IT AS A BUSINESS OWNER AND I MEAN WE HAVE A LIGHT METER 'CAUSE WE HAD THE C P SS COME OUT AND TELL US THAT, YOU KNOW, I COULD REPLACE FOUR FLUORESCENT WITH TWO L E D AND YOU KNOW, I WAS CONCERNED THAT WE WEREN'T GETTING ENOUGH LIGHT AT THE DESK AND THEN I WAS GONNA HAVE A BUNCH OF WORKMAN COMP CASES FOR GLASSES AND LOSS OF EYESIGHT. SO WE WENT OUT AND BOUGHT A METER. AND REALLY, THAT'S HOW, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S MEASURED IN FOOT CANDLES, YOU KNOW? AND, AND SO, YOU KNOW, MAYBE UNLESS SOMEBODY YOU KNOW HAS A BETTER WAY TO DO IT AND CAN EXPLAIN WHY THE OTHER ONE IS IMPORTANT AND DOES IT REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE EITHER WAY, THAT WE JUST GO TO ONE STANDARD. SO, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE IN COMPLIANCE CAN GO 50 FEET AWAY FROM THE SIGN, TURN IT OFF, TURN IT ON. I'M IN COMPLIANCE. I KNOW MY SIGN IS WORKING. BECAUSE IF, AS YOU SAID, IF THAT LITTLE PHOTO CELL THING MALFUNCTIONS, IT'S GOING UP TO FULL POWER AND, AND NOBODY'S, YOU KNOW, NOBODY'S GONNA KNOW THAT. AND IS IT WELL, YEAH, BUT EXCEPT THE ONLY PROBLEM IS, IS YOU'RE SIGN THE, WHAT YOU SEE. IF YOU'RE NOT THERE WHEN IT'S DARK, LIKE AT THIS TIME OF YEAR, YOU WOULDN'T SEE IT, YOU KNOW, UNLESS YOU LIVE, YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU WORK OR IT'S A 24 HOUR OPERATION. BUT MOST, YOU KNOW, VERY FEW OWNERS OR MANAGERS OF THE BUILDING ARE AROUND, YOU KNOW, PAST SIX O'CLOCK. UNLESS IT'S AN EMERGENCY. AND, YOU KNOW, MOST OF THE YEAR, YOU KNOW, AT THE TIME DOESN'T COME ON UNTIL AFTER THAT. YOUR CHAIR. YES. THIS IS A NITWIT QUESTION. FOR YOU GUYS IN THE INDUSTRY. FROM THE KNIT. UM, I'LL GET YOU A CHECK. SO I, SO THE KNITS, YOU HAVE TO GET RIGHT UP TO IT? NO. TO MEASURE IT WILL MEASURE WITH THE METER, BUT THEN SMALL GROUP, CORRECT? YEAH. SMALL GROUP AT DISTANCE. I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT DISTANCE, BUT IT COULD BE TAKEN FROM THE HIGHWAY. YOU STAND ON THE SIDE OF THE HIGHWAY AND SOURCE, IT'LL TELL YOU. BUT THE FOOT CANDLE, AS I UNDERSTAND [02:05:01] IT, IS MORE TO WHAT WE SEE WITH OUR VISION. WHAT WE PERCEIVE, WHAT WHAT WE PERCEIVE. AND WHEN YOU PUT YOUR SIGNS UP, WHEN YOU'RE POSITIONING THEM, YOU DO, YOU POSITION IT. SO THE PERSON DRIVING BY IS GONNA SEE IT IN A PARTICULAR WAY TO WHERE PERHAPS THAT FOOT CANDLE IS GONNA BE MORE IN YOUR FACE. NOT SAYING IT, BUT YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU CAN SEE IT BETTER. OKAY. SO LET'S, LET'S TALK. AND THE REASON WHY ON PREMISE SIGNS, RIGHT, ARE USUALLY PERPENDICULAR. OKAY. WELL, THE REASON WHY I ASK THAT IS BECAUSE TO ME IT MIGHT BE IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. SO PERHAPS THE, THE COUNCILMAN SEES IT IN A CERTAIN WAY. AND I THINK WE SHOULD MEASURE IN FOOT CANDLES IS WHAT I THINK ARE, DO YOU HAVE THE, AND I HOPE THAT'S WHERE YOU WENT, THE ONES THAT DIDN'T PASS THE KNIT TEST. WHAT IS, AND WHAT'S THE, THE RIGHT ONE IS THE KNIT. SO WHAT YOU HAVE THESE, ONCE AGAIN, WE TAKE FIVE READINGS EACH. FIRST YOU HAD THE FOOT CANDLE, UM, THEN YOU HAVE THE KNIT READING UNDER AMBER, WHITE, BLUE, GREEN, AND RED. AND THEN THESE ARE THE PAST TRIAL CRITERIA. ONCE AGAIN, IT'S NIGHTTIME ONLY. SO YOU WOULD CORRELATE THESE. SO SAY RED, YOU HAVE 1381. MAX IS 1125. SO EVERY ONE OF THOSE ACROSS THE RED WAS A FAILURE. SO DID IT PASS THE OTHER TEST? SO IT PASSED THE, THE FOOT KENDALL TEST? UH, NO. BUT DID THE OTHER, I KNOW ONE COLOR RED WAS HIGHER. WERE THE OTHERS WITHIN THE RANGE? SO GREEN, IT DIDN'T HAVE A REGISTER FOR THE GREEN SPECTRUM. BLUE. LET'S SEE, IT'S, UM, YEAH, THAT SHOULD WHITE, THAT SHOULD BE JUST R G B. THERE'S, WELL WHY YOU GUYS GOT AMBER ON THERE? THAT'S JUST HOW IT WAS WRITTEN INTO THE CODE. YEAH, I, BACK WHEN THEY CREATED THE FIRST LEDS, THEY WERE READ OR AMBER, THEN WE STARTED COMING OUT WITH THE DIGITALS, THE DIFFERENT COLORS. AND IN OTHER WORDS, ORIGINALLY THAT THEY WERE NON-COLOR SIGNS. SO WHAT IS THE KNIT FOR A COLORED SIGN? IT, I MEAN, I THINK THE WAY THE CODE WAS WRITTEN, IT WAS A ONE COLOR DIGITAL SIGN THAT WAS RED. IT WAS EITHER AMBER AND ARE THESE COLORED SIGNS? EACH COLOR HAS ITS OWN KNIT. MM-HMM. . SO DOES A COLOR SIGN WHEN YOU TAKE A KNIT READING, GIVE YOU ALL THE DIFFERENT SPECTRUMS AND WHAT THE READINGS ARE? OKAY. YES. SO AMBER, WHAT WAS THE MAX BETWEEN THE GREEN, I GUESS NO GREEN HERE. FULL COLOR. COLOR, YES. OKAY. SO DOES ANYBODY ELSE FEEL LIKE PATTY, THAT FOR EVERYBODY CONCERNED, THIS IS WAY COMPLICATED AND WE SHOULD GO TO FOOT CANDLES ONLY ART, WHAT DO YOU THINK? LIKE, HOW, WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS? WOULD YOU RATHER DO FOOT CANDLES OR KNITS? IT'LL BE EASIER FOR US TO DO THE FOOT CANDLES, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. YEAH. BUT IT, THE, IT WAS WRITTEN IN THE ORIGINAL COAT TO BE MORE PRECISE, TO DO THE KNITS. AND WE PURCHASED A KNIT GUN JUST FOR THAT PURPOSE. IF I COULD, IF I COULD ADD, CAN I JUMP IN? ORIGINALLY IN THE CODE BACK IN OH SEVEN, WHEN WE ACTUALLY GOT THE DIGITALS PASSED, THE ORIGINAL CODE HAD KNITS BECAUSE WE HAD JUST DONE THE INDUSTRY HAD JUST DONE THE STUDY ON FOOT CANDLES BECAUSE KNIT GUNS WERE SO EXPENSIVE THAT WE WENT TO THE FOOT CANDLES. 'CAUSE THEY'RE RELATIVELY CHEAP. ANYBODY CAN BUY A, A PHO PHOTO METER FROM A LIGHT METER FOR A A PHOTOGRAPHER. THEY'RE CHEAP AND THEY'RE EASY. YEAH. WHICH MEANS THAT HOPEFULLY YOU WOULD HAVE BETTER COMPLIANCE BY THE OWNERS. YOU KNOW, YOU GET CITED ONCE, YOU'RE NOT GONNA DO IT. YOU JUST GO BUY A FOOT CANDLE. GO STAND WHERE YOU TAKE THE READING. YEAH. COLLEEN, I MEAN, COLLEEN. LADIES FIRST. LADIES FIRST. GO AHEAD, COLLEEN. I THOUGHT HE WAS CALLING. NO, [02:10:01] HE, SHE THEM, YOU KNOW, ALL THOSE PRONOUN. YEAH. UM, IS THERE A DIFFERENCE HOW FAR YOU ARE FROM IT? WELL, I GUESS THERE'S A STANDARD WHERE IT'S MEASURED AS FAR AS FOOT CANDLES. IT HAS TO BE A CERTAIN DISTANCE. BUT IF IT'S PASSING THE FOOT CANDLES 30 MINUTES. EXACTLY. YES. AND IS AND IS THERE LIGHT SPILLOVER BECAUSE THE KNITS ARE BEING EXCEEDED? ANSWER TO THE SECOND PART OF THE QUESTION IS, NO, THERE IS NO TRESPASS BECAUSE THEY ARE DIGITAL. REMEMBER, THEY'RE DIGITAL. THEY'RE NOT JUST FLARING OUT IN EVERY DIRECTION. AND THE REASON, THE REASON THIS IS POSSIBLE IS IF YOU LOOK AT IT AT, AT A DIGITAL, AND I'M ONLY REFERRING TO MY BILLBOARDS. OKAY? I'M NOT SPEAKING FOR ANYBODY ELSE. IT'S A MYRIAD OF COLORS. AND SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO HIT THE RED IN THAT PARTICULAR COPY, THE RED MAY NEED TO BE MORE PREVALENT TO GET US WHAT THE CUSTOMER WANTS. SO YOU COULD LITERALLY HIT THAT RED AND IT'S GOING, OKAY, THAT'S OUT OF COMPLIANCE. BUT BECAUSE IT'S NOT AS AN ENTITY OR AS A FULL BILLBOARD, IT'S WHEN IT GETS TO YOUR EYE, IT MIXES WITH THE LESSER COLORS THAT BY THE TIME IT HITS YOUR EYE, IT'S 0.3. SO THAT'S HOW YOU CAN GET A KNIT READING THAT IS OUTTA COMPLIANCE FOR A COLOR. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THE BILLBOARD, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, FROM THE FOOT CANDLE POINT OF VIEW, DOES NOT MEAN IT'S OUTTA COMPLIANCE. RIGHT. AND IF THE, IF THE METER HITS , IF THE METER THAT THEY'RE POINTING HITS AN AREA OF THE SIGN, I KNOW IT'S NOT LIKE THIS. YEAH. BUT IT COULD BE LIKE THIS THAT IS A BRIGHTER COLOR. BUT AS THAT, BECAUSE THE REST OF THE SIGN, LET'S SAY IT'S, IT'S A ONE COLOR, YOU KNOW, ALL RED, ALL BLACK, BECAUSE PART OF THE SIGN IS BLACK AND PART OF IT IS LIT WHEN YOU GET AWAY, THE KNIT MAY BE MORE, BUT THE SIGN IS ADMITTING IT'S A TOTAL SPECTRUM THAT'S WITHIN THE STANDARD. YEAH. I, I JUST THINK IT'S WAY, IT'S WAY TOO COMPLICATED. AND, AND MY GUESS FOOT CAN, IF I STAND 50 FEET AWAY FROM A SIGN AND PUT THE FOOT CANDLE TOWARDS, YOU KNOW, THE SIGN POINTING IT THERE, YOU WOULD GET A REAL READING OF HOW MUCH LIGHT IS BEING ADMITTED TO THAT POINT. AND WE BELIEVE SO IT KNITS, KNITS WERE ORIGINATED BECAUSE THERE WAS NO METHODOLOGY OUT THERE TO, FOR DIGITAL BILLBOARDS. IT'S ACTUALLY WAS INVENTED TO USE WITH COMPUTER SCREENS. YEAH. THE KNIT IS BASED ON WHAT A COMPUTER SCREEN DOES, NOT WHAT DIGITAL BILLBOARDS DO. THEY JUST TRY TO ADAPT IT. OKAY. I MEAN, , OH, I'M, I'M, I'M NOT THE EX, I'M NOT THE EXPERT HERE. SO YOU GUYS, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, BUT WE ARE COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES. THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. SO, UH, KNIT IS BASICALLY YOU ARE MEASURING THE SOURCE OF THE LIGHT. UH, DIGITAL SIGNS, UH, THEY DO NOT EMIT SI UH, LIGHT TOO FAR AWAY. SO THE KNIT, ACTUALLY, YOU'RE MEASURING THE LIGHT ADD THAT SOURCE. THE, THE PROBLEM WITH IT, IF YOU GO TO FOOT CANDLE, YOU ARE MEASURING FURTHER AWAY. SO YOU MIGHT PASS. BUT IF YOU ARE DRIVING ON THE HIGHWAY AND YOU LOOK AT THE SIGN, YOU SEE IT, IT'S TOO BRIGHT, BUT IT'S NOT GONNA EMIT LIGHT 50 FEET AWAY. UH, SO THAT'S ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE WITH THAT. UM, SO THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT MEASUREMENTS. NOW IF I'M GONNA CHECK THIS LIGHT UP HERE AND CHECK THE FOOT CANDLE, THE ONLY WAY I CAN GET ACCURATE MEASUREMENT FOR THAT IS ALL THESE SLIDES NEED TO BE OFF AROUND IT. 'CAUSE HOW I GONNA MEASURE EXACTLY THAT WITH MY READER, THE KNIT GUN, I GUESS WE CALL IT KNIT GUN OR MEASUREMENT TOOL. WE ACTUALLY POINT AT THAT SIGN OR THAT LIGHT AND I'M ONLY MEASURING THAT, THAT AREA. SO IT'S MORE ACCURATE MEASUREMENT. AND IT'S MEASURING THAT SPECIFIC SIGN SPECIFICALLY. NOT REALLY THE AMBIENT AROUND IT. WELL, BUT IF I UNDERSTAND THE KNIT IT, IT'S ONLY MEASURING A SPECIFIC POINT ON THE SIGN, NOT THE ENTIRE SIGN. CORRECT. SO THE ENTIRE SIGN COULD AVERAGE THE ENTIRE SIGN IF IT WAS, UH, TESTED OVERALL COULD BE IN COMPLIANCE WITH ONE SPECIFIC POINT BEING HIGHER THAN ANOTHER POINT SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE SIGN. YES. CORRECT. AND IF THEY'RE POINTING THE GUN AT THE SAME PLACE IN THE SIGN EVERY TIME OR THE MESSAGE CHANGED, IT COULD BE DIFFERENT. SO, SO WOULD IT BE ACCEPTABLE TO THE CITY IF A SIGN VENDOR POINTED TO AN AMBER OR A BLACK THAT FELL BELOW THE REQUIREMENTS [02:15:03] AND USED THAT, THAT TO RAISE THE UH, THE BRIGHTNESS? I MEAN, I MEAN TECHNICALLY HE'S RIGHT BECAUSE WHEN WE WENT OUT, WHEN WE DID THAT, UH, WELL THE ANSWER'S NO . BUT I MEAN THE CITY WOULD SAY NO NO, BECAUSE WHEN WE DID THAT, UH, THAT UM, BUS TOUR BACK IN 10, WE DID A, WE WENT TO A DIGITAL SIGN ON OF FOUR 10. WE WEREN'T EVEN GETTING A READING. WE GOT MORE AMBIENT LIGHT READINGS THAN ANYTHING. SO, SO YOU'VE GOT A, IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE A MEASURING TOOL THAT MEASURES THE SIGN IN IN ITS ENTIRETY. DO THEY MAKE A KNIT THAT TAKES A STAND 200 FEET AWAY WHERE IT'S TAKING A BROADER I HAVE NO IDEA, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE SO , YOU STEP FAR ENOUGH BACK. YOU CAN TWO WHAT? WE CAN USE THE SAME, IF I'M CORRECT, YOU STEP FAR ENOUGH BACK, NOT A HUNDRED FEET, BUT MAYBE 2, 3, 400 FEET OR FURTHER. I'VE BEEN ON A ROOF OF A BUILDING A HOTEL HERE IN SAN ANTONIO WHEN I WAS WORKING HERE AND WE WERE SENT TO MEASURE A STATIC SIGN THAT WAS ON A BUILDING. WE LOOKED ACROSS THE WAY AT A CITY FACILITY, I'M NOT GONNA SAY THE NAME, IT HAD A DIGITAL SIGN. I'M TALKING A MILE AWAY. IT WAS SUPER BRIGHT AND WE MEASURED IT WITH THAT KNIT GUN AND IT STILL WAS SUPER BRIGHT. SO IT'S, THAT WAS THE ALAMO DOME SONG, RIGHT? YEAH. , THEY'RE CONSTANTLY VIOLATING. CLARIFY THAT ALL THE TIME. YES. WITH THE KNIT GUN THAT WE HAVE AT THAT, AT, AT THAT TIME THAT I WAS THERE. I DUNNO. BUT NOW MAYBE THEY UPGRADED, THERE'S A LITTLE DOT INSIDE THAT VIEWING THAT VIEW EYE, THAT LITTLE DOT, YOU CAN AIM IT AT A PARTICULAR COLOR. SO YOU HAVE TO BE QUICK BECAUSE EVERY AT LEAST 10 SECONDS OR, OR MORE OR QUICKER, THEY CHANGE THAT IMAGE. SO YOU HAVE TO BE QUICK TO CATCH THAT COLOR RED TO CATCH BLACK, BLUE, WHATEVER COLOR IT IS, WHITE. ESPECIALLY IF YOU STAND FURTHER BACK ENOUGH, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET MAJORITY OF WHAT THAT KNIT, WHICH BY THE TIME AT THAT TIME WE CREATED THE KNITS. IT WAS AN INDUSTRY STANDARD. IT JUST DIDN'T COME OUT OF NOTHING. SO, UH, SO HERE, LET ME, I WANNA, BECAUSE AS THE LAYMAN WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND ANY OF WHAT YOU'RE, I THINK I MIGHT HAVE A YES. I THINK I MIGHT HAVE A WAY TO EXPLAIN IT. SO, SO FOOT CANDLES IS A, IS A POINT SOURCE, WHEREAS KNIT IS ACTUALLY CALCULATED IN A SQUARE METER CAPACITY. SO IT'S MORE OF AN AREA. SO I THINK FOR THE PURPOSES OF WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DETERMINE HERE, AND, AND AS TIM WAS JUST SAYING, FOR COMPLIANCE, HAVE A CALCULATION AND A LIMIT FOR BOTH KNIT AND FOR FOOT CANDLES. BUT THEN JUST DETERMINE WHICH ONE IT IS THAT YOU ARE GOING TO USE AS A STANDARD TO FAIL A LIGHTING. BUT I THINK FOR, FOR LAYMAN TERMS, YOU KNOW, ONE IS A A SINGLE POINT, WHEREAS THE OTHER ONE IS A A SQUARE, YOU KNOW, METER SQUARE, IT'S AN AREA. RIGHT. BUT BASICALLY YOU'RE LOOKING THROUGH A VIEWFINDER ON A KNIT GUN POINTING IT AT A COLOR ON THE SIGN. AND IF YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION AND THE SIGN CHANGES COLOR, YOU COULD BE READING THE WRONG COLOR BY THE TIME THE READING COMES BACK. CORRECT. IT'S NOT TAKING A READING. IN OTHER WORDS, IF I POINTED AT THAT TO SEE HOW BRIGHT THAT WAS, IT WOULD, I'D HAVE TO HIT THAT LITTLE RED THING TO FIND OUT WHAT THE RED COLOR WAS, RIGHT? CORRECT. SO YOU CAN ACTUALLY CONVERT BETWEEN KNIT AND FOOT CANDLE. BUT IT'S NOT AN EXACT MATH. SO FOR INSTANCE, FOR FOR ONE KNIT, IT'S EQUAL TO ABOUT 3.1 TO 3.4. SO IT'S NOT AN EXACT CONVERSION, BUT YOU, YOU CAN MAKE YEAH. AN EXTRAPOLATION. ARE THERE ANY FEDERAL STANDARDS THAT ARE SET AND DO THEY USE BOTH? I DUNNO. THE TEXT. I HAVE STANDARDS, WE'D HAVE TO LOOK INTO THAT. THEY, THEY LEFT IT TO THE CITY DECISION ON WHETHER TO HAVE DIGITAL OR NOT WAS LEFT TO THE CITIES. THEREFORE THE, THE LUMINANCE WAS LEFT TO THE CITIES. SO THERE IS NOT A STATE STANDARD. WE'VE ASKED THEM AND ASKED THEM AND THEY JUST KEEP SAYING THAT THEY WANNA LEAVE IT TO THE CITIES. AND ARE OTHER CITIES IN TEXAS STILL USING BOTH IN THE MARKETS OPERATE? I KNOW THAT SOME ARE, ARE, ARE MOST OF THESE CITIES USING BOTH STILL OR IS THAT WHY WE'RE SEEING A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO COLUMNS? BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT USING BOTH. SO WE CAN ONLY COMPARE. CHAIRMAN CAN BOTH. THAT IS GREAT. LEMME TAKE ONE MORE SHOT AT THIS. OKAY, HERE'S THE DIFFERENCE WHERE WE'RE CONCERNED. ALRIGHT, I WANT SOMEBODY TO SEE MY ADVERTISING, RIGHT? NO MATTER WHAT THE CONDITIONS. OKAY. ON A CLEAR NIGHT [02:20:01] THEN I AT 0.3 FOOT CANDLES AT 250 FEET. THAT'S WHAT WE USE 0.3 FOOT CANDLES OVER AMBIENT LIGHT. OKAY. ON A REGULAR CLEAR NIGHT THAT IN ORDER TO GET THAT AMOUNT OF VISION TO THE PERSON, TO THE CAR THAT'S PASSING, I MAY NEED 500 KNITS. OKAY? IF IT'S RAINING HARD, I STILL WANT MY AD TO BE SEEN. SO TO GET TO THAT POINT, THREE FOOT CANDLES AT THAT DRIVER'S EYE, MY KNITS ARE GONNA HAVE TO INCREASE. SO IT, IF YOU'RE ACTUALLY HITTING IT WITH A KNIT GUN, I COULD PROBABLY BE OUTTA COMPLIANCE. BUT IN ORDER TO MAKE THE THING VISIBLE AT 0.3 FOOT CANDLES, THAT'S THE PRICE YOU PAY. BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER 'CAUSE IT'S NOT GETTING ANY MORE LIGHT. IT'S REALLY NOT PROVIDING ANY MORE LIGHT BECAUSE OF THE CONDITIONS. 'CAUSE IT'S RAINING REALLY HARD. SO THAT'S WHERE, HOW SOMETIMES THESE REALLY AREN'T BOTH GOOD FOR AT LEAST MEASURING DIGITAL BILLBOARDS FROM MY POINT OF VIEW. AND THAT'S WHY WE USE AS THE INDUSTRY STANDARD THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES. I MEAN EVERYWHERE I'M AWARE THIS, THIS ACTUALLY SURPRISED ME. I I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THESE. IT'S 0.3 FOOT CANDLES EVERYWHERE I'VE EVER GONE, I, I THINK THE KNITS, THE CANDLES THAT WE HAVE ON FILE ARE ON THE CODE RIGHT NOW ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY FOR OUR INDUSTRY AND THE WHERE WE'RE AT RIGHT NOW WITH THE CITY, IF A SIGN IS TOO BRIGHT, WELL THEN IT BECOMES AN ISSUE WITH THE CITY STANDS FOR TO GO AND TAKE CARE OF IT. WHAT THAT MEANS THAT THEY HAVE PROVIDED COLLEEN BASED, BASED ON YOUR ANALOGY, DOES THE SIGN THEN HAVE A SENSOR AND ADJUST THE KNITS THEN BASED ON THE WEATHER CONDITIONS? THANKS. ABSOLUTELY. THERE'S, WE CALL IT A BEEHIVE, BUT YES, THERE'S A LITTLE, IF YOU LOOK AT 'EM, THERE'S A LITTLE GOOFY LOOKING BEEHIVE THING. THAT'S WHAT THAT DOES. THAT IS WHAT THAT THING IS IN THIS NOW. WELL, NO, WE ALSO HAVE A CAMERA THAT POINTS BACK. SO WE WE'RE LOOKING AT 'EM ALL THE TIME. . YEAH. SO TIM YEAH, WAS WHAT TIM DESCRIBED ON OUR ON-PREMISE SIGNS. THOSE ARE TEMPERATURE PROBES. SO THE, OURS ARE IN LIKE INSIDE THE SIGN, BUT, BUT IT'S A, YOU HAVE LIKE A PHOTO CELL, SO IF IT'S EXTREMELY DARK IT MAY BE LESS AND IF IT AS IT LIGHTENS UP, YOU KNOW, AND I ASSUME THE BILLBOARDS ARE MORE, IT'S CLOUDY. YEAH. OKAY. DALE, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU GET THAT INFORMATION ON YOUR PHONE FROM A COMPUTERIZED CHIP OR SOMETHING ON THE SIGN. DOES THAT ALSO TELL YOU IF IT'S MALFUNCTIONING? IF YOU'RE READER, LIKE YOU WERE SAYING, IF THAT GOES OUT, THAT IT IMMEDIATELY BUMPS UP TO HIGH? THAT I, I'D HAVE TO CHECK 'CAUSE I DON'T, I DON'T, I DON'T THINK, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S THAT TECHNICAL YET. YEAH, I, THEY CAN CHANGE CONTENT BUT I DON'T KNOW IF IT ACTUALLY SHOWS IF THERE'S AN ISSUE WITH THE SIGN YOU SHOULD INVENT THAT. OURS DOES NOT. OKAY. SO I WE'RE, BECAUSE DOES ANYBODY HAVE AN APPETITE FOR LOWERING THE BRIGHTNESS STANDARDS? I JUST HAVE ONE QUESTION. THESE BESIDES THAT, UH, THE COUNCILMAN IS REFERRING TO THAT WERE OUT OF COMPLIANCE, WAS HE NOTIFIED THAT THAT'S THE FACT THAT WHY THEY WERE SO BRIGHT THAT THEY WERE OUTTA COMPLIANCE AND DID THAT GET CORRECTED? WE MEASURED THOSE WEDNESDAY NIGHTS. SO WE WILL WORK WITH THEM AND WE'LL MAKE SURE THAT INFORMATION GETS OUT THERE. WE JUST HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE YET. BUT YEAH, WE TOOK THOSE TWO NIGHTS AGO OR SO. SO IS IT A POSSIBILITY THAT IF YOU EXPLAINED TO HIM THAT THOSE SIGNS WERE OUT OF COMPLIANCE AND DID NOT MEET THE STANDARDS OR THE CODE, THAT MAYBE HE WOULD CHANGE HIS MIND? I CAN'T SPEAK FOR HIM, BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HAPPY TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION AND SEE WHERE WE GO FROM THERE AND PRESENT THAT BACK TO THIS COMMITTEE. YEAH, IT JUST LET ME, IT SEEMS LIKE EVERY SINGLE TIME WE DEAL WITH THESE SIGNS, IT JUST COMES BACK TO ENFORCEMENT. I, WE DON'T NEED TO, WE DON'T NEED MORE REGULATION IF WE'RE NOT IMPLEMENTING PROPER ENFORCEMENT PASSED THE FOOT CANDLE, CORRECT. RIGHT? THAT'S CORRECT. CORRECT. YEAH. SO THEY PASSED FOOT THE FOOT CANDLE MEASUREMENTS. SO DO WE WANT TO ELIMINATE THE KNITS? SO AMIN, WHAT WOULD HAPPENS IF THE COMMITTEE ELIMINATED THE NET COMPLETELY OR ITS PASS EITHER OR? TO ANSWER THAT AGAIN, KIND OF ASK ARTHUR THE QUESTION. UM, SO BASICALLY THE COMPLAINTS WE GET THE ONES THAT, NOT JUST FROM THE COUNCILMAN, FROM ANYBODY WE GO INVESTIGATE IF IT'S HIGH ON EITHER ONE OF THOSE TWO NETS OR FOOT CANDLE, UH, WE DO TALK TO THE OWNER, THEY REDUCE IT. NOW AFTER THAT, DO WE GET A CALL AGAIN FROM ANYBODY OR, OR BASICALLY WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS IF THEY DO MEET TODAY'S NUMBERS, WE DON'T GET CALLS FOR THOSE [02:25:01] SIGNS. THAT IS CORRECT. WE DON'T. SO TECHNICALLY WHAT WE HAVE IS GOOD ENOUGH AND KIND OF GO BACK TO AS LONG AS WE ENFORCE IT THEN AND THEY MEET THOSE NUMBERS, THEN WE ARE, OKAY. SO WITH THAT SAID, MY RECOMMENDATION NOW IS TO LEAVE WHAT WE HAVE AS IS VERSUS DO ONE OR THE, UH, YOU PASSED ONE OR THE OTHER. YOU'RE OKAY. I MEAN, I WOULDN'T WATCH OUT. SO THE TWO SIGNS THAT FAILED PASSED ONE BUT NOT THE OTHER. AND IT'S A SIGN THAT'S BEING BROUGHT UP FROM THE COUNCILMAN AS I HAVE COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE WHOLE SIGN INDUSTRY. OKAY. BASED ON THESE SIGNS. SO YEAH, I MEAN I WOULD SAY BASED OFF OF THAT, WE PROBABLY DON'T WANT TO, BUT IF THERE'S AN APPETITE FOR THE REMOVING ONE, WHAT WE CAN DO IS WE HAVE ALL THE HISTORICAL DATA FROM THE LAST FIVE YEARS OF BOTH COMPLAINT SIGNS AND PAST FAILED SIGNS ON THE INITIAL PERMIT. I'M HAPPY TO KIND OF COMPILE THAT AND SEE, YOU KNOW, WHEN THERE'S A COMPLAINT, IS IT FOOT CANDLES THAT TYPICALLY IS THE COMPLAINT? IS IT THE KNITS? I CAN PRESENT THAT TO THE COMMITTEE NEXT TIME. YEAH. WE TALK ABOUT THIS ITEM AND KIND OF SAY, HERE'S HERE'S WHAT'S HAPPENING. OKAY, FAIR ENOUGH. THAT'D BE GREAT. BUT I, I JUST THINK IF YOU MAKE IT SO COMP, IN OTHER WORDS, NO OWNER OF A BUILDING IS GONNA GO BUY A KNIT GUN TO DO THAT. BUT A LOT OF US HAVE FOOT CANDLE STUFF BECAUSE WE TAKE THAT READING OUTSIDE, YOU KNOW, AT NIGHT FOR SECURITY LIGHTING TO SEE, YOU KNOW, WHERE, WHERE WE'RE AT. AND THERE'S SOME, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE A MULTI-FAMILY POOL REQUIREMENTS, THERE'S SOME MINIMUM FOOT CANDLES, YOU KNOW, IN THE POOL AREA. SO, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE GOOD. YES. I I, SORRY, I WAS WAITING TO COMMENT. UM, I AGREE THAT I FEEL LIKE THERE'S AN ENFORCEMENT ISSUE, NOT A SITUATION WHERE YOU NEED TO CHANGE THE, THE, THE CODE AS IT EXISTS. AND SO I WOULD HOPE THAT WE COULD MAKE A RECOMMENDATION. 'CAUSE IT'S BUDGET INPUT TIME THAT WE LOOK AT INCREASING THE NUMBER OF, UH, SIGN INSPECTORS. BECAUSE I DON'T THINK IT'S A PROACTIVE THING THAT YOU DO. YOU'RE VERY REACTIVE. YOU WAIT FOR THE COMPLAINT TO COME IN. YOU'RE NOT GOING OUT AND LOOKING AT SOME OF OUR SENSITIVE AREAS TOO. THAT, THAT I THINK WHERE THE, WHERE WERE THESE SIGNS LOCATED? WERE THEY IN OVERLAY DISTRICT? DO YOU REMEMBER? I'D HAVE TO LOOK AT THE, I'M SORRY. I DON'T HAVE THAT INFORMATION I PROVIDE THAT. I DON I DON'T BELIEVE SO, I DON'T BELIEVE ANY OF THEM ARE IN THE M L O D. I JUST KNOW THAT, THAT THERE WERE SEVERAL COMPLAINTS ABOUT SEVERAL SIGNS THAT THE COUNCILMAN HAD BEEN INVOLVED ON IT ON A PERSONAL LEVEL. AND SO THAT IS A REPEAT OFFENDER. SO I'LL BE INTERESTED IN THE DATA WHEN YOU COME FORWARD. DO WE HAVE REPEAT OFFENDERS? AND IF WE DO, MAYBE WE NEED TO LOOK AT AN ESCALATION CLAUSE THAT SAYS, HEY, YOU LOSE YOUR, YOU LOSE YOUR LIGHTS ALTOGETHER IF YOU CONTINUE TO BE A VIOLATOR. AND I HOPE THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO IS PAYING ATTENTION FOR THE ALAMO DOME BECAUSE THEY ARE A REPEAT OFFENDER CONSTANTLY. AND THAT SORT OF GOES BACK TO WE GONNA REQUIRE THE ALAMO DOME TO TAKE DOWN THEIR SIGN. DON'T THINK SO. WELL MAYBE THEY COULD, MAYBE THEY COULD GO DARK IN THE WAY OF, UH, YOU KNOW, CONSERVATION, AS I WAS EXPLAINING WHEN THE MEETING STARTED IS THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO OWNED PROPERTY IS EXEMPT FROM THE ORDINANCE. SO I'M NOT GONNA TALK ABOUT THE OME, BUT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, , TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ABOUT REPEAT OFFENDERS, YES. UM, SPECIFICALLY ONE OF COUNCILMAN PERRY'S SIGNS THAT HE CALLS ON, IT'S THE SAME SIGN, SAME PERSON. AND WE GAVE HIM SEVERAL WARNINGS, THEN WE START GIVING HIM CITATIONS AND SO FORTH. UM, EVEN WE GET TO A POINT WHERE WE GIVE HIM A LETTER INTENT OF A UTILITY DISCONNECT. WE'RE GONNA KILL POWER ON THE SIGN, THEN HE FIXED IT AND IT WAS QUIET FOR LIKE YEAR OR WHATEVER, THEN IT COMES BACK AGAIN. SO IT IS REPEAT OFFENDER ISSUE. NOT, I DON'T, I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S CITYWIDE ISSUE. YEAH. SO IT COMES BACK TO ENFORCEMENT AND PERHAPS THE COUNCILMAN OUGHT TO KEEP THAT IN MIND WHEN IT'S BUDGET SEASON AND UH, FUNDS GET ALLOCATED FOR UH, UM, YEAH, I WOULD FOR STAFF. I BELIEVE THAT'S OUTSIDE OUR PURVIEW. THAT WOULD BE LIKE DISCUSSING HOW MUCH MONEY THEY GET. ALL WE'RE DOING IS THIS IS THE CODE LANGUAGE, IT'S THE STAKEHOLDERS IF THEY WANT MORE ENFORCEMENT OF STUFF. BUT I, YOU KNOW, I PERSONALLY HAVING, YOU KNOW, HAVING SOMEONE GO OUT AND JUST, YOU KNOW, BE THE SIGN POLICE EVERY SIGN, EVERYTHING TO ME IS OVERBOARD. SO I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE YOU DO IT BESIDES, YOU KNOW, WE GET THAT 300 GRAND FROM OUT FRONT. WE CAN HIRE MORE SIGN INSPECTORS, . YEAH. WELL THE REASON I SAY THAT IS THAT CODE COMPLIANCE AS A WHOLE IS CHARGED WITH PROACTIVE CALLS. SO YOU MIGHT SAY THEY'RE, THEY'RE NOT THE SIGN POLICE. WELL, LET ME TELL YOU, THEY'RE THE LAWN POLICE, FRONT YARD PARKING POLICE. SO I'M JUST SAYING WHEN WE PUT CODES IN PLACE, [02:30:02] WE HAVE REPEAT OFFENDERS BECAUSE THERE'S NOT ENOUGH ENFORCEMENT. THAT'S, AND SO I THINK FUNDAMENTALLY, IF WE'RE MAKING A DECISION NOT TO MOVE FORWARD ON AN ISSUE BECAUSE THERE'S AN ENFORCEMENT ISSUE, THEN IF WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TOOLS, 'CAUSE HOW MANY SIGN INSPECTORS DO YOU HAVE FOR THE WHOLE CITY? 10, 7, 7, 7 6, 6 6 FOR THE ENTIRE CITY. WELL, BUT THE BUT, BUT THE PROBLEM IS, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, UNLESS THERE'S A CALL, I AM ASSUMING NONE OF THEM ARE WORKING AT NIGHT. THAT IS CORRECT. YEAH. THE, THAT WOULD BE KIND OF A NIGHT CREW APPROACH THAT WE'D HAVE TO LOOK AT. YEAH, SO THEY, THEY, THEY, SOMEBODY WORKS OVERTIME TO GO OUT AT NIGHT TO GO MEASURE THE SIGN. BUT I, I, YOUR POINT IS WELL NOTED. I I THINK WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO ADDRESS IT. I THINK FOR THE REPEAT OFFENDER THAT'S, YOU KNOW, IT JUST NEEDS TO GO TO CITATION THEN, YOU KNOW, LIKE THEY DO WITH THE GRASS. THEY JUST SHOW UP AND CUT YOUR GRASS. YOU KNOW, I JUST, THERE'S SOME ENFORCEMENT MECHANISM AND, AND MAYBE WE SHOULD LOOK, 'CAUSE I AM ASSUMING ENFORCEMENT OF THE SIGN CODE IS IN THIS SECTION. IT IT IS IN CHAPTER 28, BUT IT TECHNICALLY SENDS YOU BACK TO CHAPTER 10 10. SO MAYBE WE SHOULD LOOK, YOU KNOW, AS WE GO THROUGH CHAPTER 10 AND, AND LOOK AT ALL THAT, OR, OR BASICALLY IT'S JUST AN ENFORCEMENT. 'CAUSE YOU CAN, HOW YOU HANDLE IT IS REALLY AN ADMINISTRATIVE DEAL. JUST, YOU KNOW, IF YOU GOT SOMEBODY THAT'S, YOU KNOW, YOU GET ONE STRIKE, YOU GET A SECOND, YOU KNOW, CHANCE SOMEWHERE LATER DOWN THE LINE TO BE RESPONSIBLE. AND THEN THE THIRD STRIKE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE JUST FILING, WE'RE ISSUING THE CITATION AND YOU KNOW, BUT THE, WHAT IS THE PENALTY? 500, A THOUSAND DOLLARS. RIGHT? THE THE, THE PENALTY BASICALLY IS, UH, ADMINISTRATIVE, UH, CITATION $300. THE FIRST ONE IF IT'S, AGAIN 500 NEXT TIME A THOUSAND. AND AS I SAID TO A POINT WHERE WE CAN, UH, DISCONNECT UTILITIES. SO I MEAN, WE HAVE THE MECHANISM IN PLACE, UM, AND YOU COULD RE PENALTIES AND YOU COULD REVOKE THE SIGNED PERMIT FOR A VIOLATION. IT'S THE SAME, YOU KNOW, I'M ON THE ELECTRICAL ADVISORY BOARD OR T D L R AND THAT'S EXACTLY THE SAME ISSUE THAT WE HAVE WITH UNLICENSED CONTRACTORS. IT'S, IT'S JUST ENFORCEMENT. SO LIKE, I'M BACK IN THE DAY BEFORE WE HAD, WE, HOW MANY TWO SIGN INSPECTORS DOING THE WHOLE CITY, IT'S LIKE, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. AND THEY CAN'T BE THERE AT, AT EVERY ILLEGAL OR, UH, BRIGHTNESS OR, YOU KNOW, SETBACK ALL, YOU KNOW, ALL THAT CODE OR, OR RESTRICTION. IT'S, IT'S A LOT OF STUFF TO WORRY ABOUT. SO WHAT THEY'RE DOING NOW IS PHENOMENAL WITH, WITH THE, WITH THE, WITH THE TOOLS THEY HAVE TO WORK WITH. SO AGAIN, I THINK THIS WHOLE WHOLE UH, NUMBER HERE THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH, I THINK IS, IT ALL FALLS BACK ON ENFORCEMENT. OKAY. IF I CAN CAN ADDRESS IT. ENFORCEMENT THOUGH, AS I RECALL, DEVELOPMENT SERVICES IS AN ENTERPRISE FUND, SO WE RELY ON THE USERS TO PAY IT. AND OF COURSE THEY DON'T WANNA PAY ANYMORE. WE CAN'T, IT'S NOT LIKE WE CAN JUST BUDGET TO DEVELOPMENT SERVICES FOR MORE ENFORCEMENT. ONE LAST COMMENT I MORE EMPLOYEES IS YEAH, I I I'M NOT FOLLOWING IT. IT'S AN, THE DEVELOPMENT SERVICE IS BASICALLY A SET ASIDE, UH, NOT-FOR-PROFIT COMPANY THAT THEIR FEES CAN'T, YOU KNOW, IT, WHAT IF IT PULLS FROM THE GENERAL FUND? IT'S NOT A HUNDRED PERCENT THE COMPLIANCE ENTERPRISE. AND MAYBE THE ANSWER IS, IS WE HAVE SOME OF THE CO COMPLIANCE PEOPLE TRAINED ON HOW TO DO SOME OTHER STUFF AND IF THEY'RE OUT AT NIGHT DOING VIOLATION STUFF OR SOME OTHER GROUP THAT'S OUTSIDE. BUT WE'LL LEAVE THAT TO AMIN AND MIKE SHANNON TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO RUN . I WAS GONNA MENTION, YOU CAN ALWAYS DO A PILOT PROGRAM LIKE WHAT WAS DONE FOR THE NOISE ORDINANCE WHERE YOU FLEX PEOPLE. BUT I, I KNOW AT LEAST FROM A NEIGHBORHOOD PERSPECTIVE, CODE COMES ON IN AND USUALLY DID SWEEPS THAT WERE PROGRAMS THAT WERE PUT IN THAT REALLY DID TARGETED EFFORTS. DO YOU HAVE A SIGN SWEEP TEAM? HAVE YOU EVER DONE A SWEEP OF A CORRIDOR AND LOOKED AT ALL THE SIGNAGE IN ONE PARTICULAR AREA? I MEAN, IT'S JUST SOMETHING I THINK TO BE MORE PROACTIVE AND NOT JUST TARGET ONE, BUT LOOK AT A WHOLE SWATH OF AREA. BUT I WOULD, I WOULD, I WOULD CAUTION YOU TO BE CAREFUL FOR WHAT YOU ASK FOR. BECAUSE IF YOU POKE THE HORNET'S NEST, YOU MAY LOSE EVERYTHING WHEN ALL [02:35:01] THE PEOPLE UP AND DOWN THE CORRIDOR AT THE SAME TIME GET CITED AND CALL THEIR COUNCIL PEOPLE. AND, AND IT REALLY DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING. SO I WOULD JUST SUGGEST THAT, THAT WE LEAVE IT TO THE STAFF. WE EVALUATE WHAT OUR, OUR JOB AT THIS COMMITTEE IS NOT TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO ENFORCE. IT'S TO FIGURE OUT WHAT NEEDS TO BE ENFORCED AND YOU KNOW, I E WHAT THE RULES ARE. AND SO THEY'RE GONNA BRING BACK TO US WHAT THE, UH, STATISTICS ARE ON ALL THE SIGNS THAT GOT REPORTED. DID THEY PASS OR FAIL? YOU KNOW, DID THEY PASS KELVIN OR, OR NOT KELVIN, BUT KEVIN CAN'T FOOT CANDLES OR NETS. AND THEN WE CAN, YOU KNOW, MAKE THAT DETERMINATION WHETHER WE WANT TO GO WITH ONE VERSUS THE OTHER. LEAVE BOTH IN PLACE OR CHANGE THEM UP OR DOWN. I THINK THE PENALTY SHOULD BE INCREASED HOWEVER THAT GETS DONE NEEDS TO BE DONE. AND THEN YOU NEED A POSSE. I MEAN, PENALTY SHOULD BE DEAF. THEY SHOULD HAVE TO DANGLE DANGLE BY THEIR FEET. WELL, YEAH, BUT WHAT YOU ALSO HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF IS THOSE SAME PENALTIES IN CHAPTER 10 APPLY TO EVERYONE. SO THAT SAME, YOU KNOW, LITTLE HOMEOWNER THAT'S DOING SOMETHING IN THEIR HOUSE THAT GETS CAUGHT ONCE, GETS TWICE AND THIRD IS GONNA HAVE TO PAY THE SAME PENALTY. AND I'M NOT SAYING RIGHT OR WRONG, I'M JUST SAYING, YOU KNOW. YEAH, IT'S NOT WHO'LL TELL YOU THEY DO WORK WITH PEOPLE EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE, THEY'RE FINED. DON'T YOU WAIVE THE FINES WHEN THEY COME INTO COMPLIANCE SOMETIMES KIND OF AS THE CARROT TO GET INTO COMPLIANCE DAYS? THERE'S ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT HAPPEN. NO, NO, WE DON'T, WE, WE DON'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY. UH, IF, IF WE GO TO COURT, THE JUDGE WILL ASK US ARE THEY IN COMPLIANCE TODAY? AND IF WE SAY YES, THEY DO REDUCE THE FINE, WE DON'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO IT. 'CAUSE WHEN WE WRITE THE CITATION, THAT'S IT AND IT GOES TO COURT. BUT AGAIN, OUR FEEDBACK WILL HELP TO YOUR INFLUENCE OF COURSE. COURSE. YEAH. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS ISSUE IS, JEREMY, THERE'S NO NUMBER 10 CORRECT? OR NINE? THAT IS CORRECT. YEAH, THAT'S THE LAST ITEM TO, SO THE ONLY OTHER ITEM, THE AGENDA ITEM NUMBER NINE, IT'S KINDA THE ONE WE ALWAYS HAVE, BUT WE ALWAYS USUALLY RUN OUT TIME. SO I'LL LEAVE IT UP TO THE COMMITTEE IS JUST, YOU KNOW, RE REVIEWING ALL THE 30 PROPOSED CHANGES THAT'S STILL OUT THERE. SO I'LL LEAVE IT UP TO Y'ALL ON HOW YOU WANT TO PROGRESS THROUGH DAY. MY LEVEL IS ZERO RIGHT NOW. SO, UH, WE'RE GONNA SKIP THAT. BUT I WANT TO TALK TO ONE OTHER THING THAT CAME UP IS, UH, WE ARE GONNA DELAY OUR NEXT MEETING FOR A MONTH. DO YOU HAVE DOODLE? DO I HAVE WHAT? DO YOU HAVE DOODLE? I MEAN, I CAN DO A DOODLE POLL IF YOU LIKE. YEAH. SO WHY DON'T YOU SEND IT OUT TO EVERYBODY PICKING A COUPLE OF DATES. DO YOU WANT TO SEND OUT TO EVERYBODY I'M INVITING TO THE MEETINGS OR SPECIFICALLY TO THE COMMITTEE? JUST RIGHT NOW. THE COMMITTEE. THE COMMITTEE PLUS TO THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ATTENDING THE MEETINGS REGULARLY. OKAY. AND THEN YOU CAN PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO THE VOTING ALTERNATES AND THE FOUR. YEAH, DEFINITELY. I WANNA MAKE SURE WE 'EM, BUT THAT'LL, AND SO WE'RE GONNA DELAY HAVING A MEETING OF THIS GROUP FOR A MONTH, LEAVING TIME WITHIN THAT MONTH FOR ALL THOSE WORKING GROUPS TO MEET. AND I SEE IF THINGS CAN BE IRONED OUT, IF, IF IT GETS BACK TO ME FROM STAFF THAT, YOU KNOW, THE WORKING GROUPS NEED MORE TIME, WE MAY CANCEL THAT MEETING AND PUSH IT BACK ANOTHER COUPLE OF WEEKS. BUT I WOULD LIKE, YOU KNOW, IT, IT'S GREAT TO GO TO MEETINGS WHERE, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY EXPLAINS HOW THEY FEEL, BUT WE'RE AT THE POINT NOW THAT IT'S TIME TO SEE IF YOU KNOW, WHAT THE SAUSAGE MIGHT LOOK LIKE AT THE END OF THE DAY. AND, AND SO WHILE, WHILE THE WORKING GROUPS AGAIN HAVE NO, UH, POWER AND THEY'RE NOT TAKING VOTES, YOU KNOW, IF WE CAN COME TO SOME, IF THEY CAN COME TO SOME CONSENSUS LANGUAGE THAT COULD BE PRESENTED AND DISCUSSED HERE, THAT WOULD BE GREAT. ANYBODY ELSE? IF NOT MEETING ADJOURN. THANK YOU CHAIR. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.