* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [00:00:08] ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. SO, JEREMY MCDONALD, DEVELOPMENT SERVICES DEPARTMENT, ENG, UH, DST ENGINEER. UH, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. THIS IS THE FIRST SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING FOR THE ELECTRICAL CODES SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE BUILDING RELATED FIRE CODES APPEALS AND ADVISORY BOARD. TODAY IS SEPTEMBER 24TH, 2024. UH, WE'LL DO, UH, LEMME GRAB THE SIGN IN SHEET. SO WE'LL CALL THE MEETING TO ORDER AT 9 0 7. WE'LL DO A QUICK ROLL CALL, MAKE SURE WE HAVE QUORUM, AND THEN WE CAN TURN OVER TO THE FIRST AGENDA ITEM TO CREATE A CHAIR AND A CO-CHAIR. UH, MARK ROSS. MICHAEL RUST. RON ECKES. PRESENT. EDWARD DEL TORO. PRESENT. GARY KUNTZ, PRESENT AND LON COLBERTSON PRESENT. ALL RIGHT. WE HAVE QUORUM, UH, THREE OUTTA THE FOUR PRIMARY. GARY IS THE ALTERNATE TO EDWARDS, SO DEFINITELY CAN, UH, CHIME IN, GIVE US SOME GOOD DETAIL, PROVIDE HIS EXPERTISE ON ANYTHING, AS I SAID, INFORMATIC EXPERT. UH, BUT ANY VOTE, WE WILL GO TO EDWARD OAL. HE'S HERE FOR THE TIME BEING. ALL RIGHT. SO THAT GIVES US QUORUM. WE'LL GO AHEAD AND GET STARTED. UH, THE FIRST AGENDA ITEM IS TO, UH, VOTE. OR ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE'LL DO OUR INTERPRETATION REAL QUICK. MAKE THAT ANNOUNCEMENT FOR THOSE THAT ARE ONLINE. GOOD MORNING. GOOD MORNING. ALRIGHT. UM, WE ALSO HAVE, UH, AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS AVAILABLE. IF A REQUEST IS SUBMITTED. UH, WE CAN PROVIDE THAT FOR ANYBODY HERE, UH, IN THE MEETING THAT WANTS TO JOIN IN, IN PERSON. THERE IT IS. ALRIGHT. UH, SO, UH, SINCE WE DON'T HAVE A CHAIR, I'LL KIND OF CHAIR THIS SIDE OF IT UNTIL WE GET ONE, UH, ANY NOMINATIONS FOR A CHAIR FOR THE SUBCOMMITTEE? I WILL VOLUNTEER. RON KA. OKAY. RON KAMIS. ANYBODY WANNA MAKE A MOTION TO, UH, APPOINT RON KAMIS? YEAH, I HAVE MOTION. I SECOND THAT, OR I MOTION TO, UH, LINE. OKAY. THANK YOU LON. AND, UH, JUST A QUICK REMINDER, UH, TO USE THE MICROPHONES, UH, FOR ANYBODY WATCHING ONLINE OR FOR THE RECORDING IN THE FUTURE. SORRY ABOUT THAT. NOT A PROBLEM. UH, YEAH, JUST, UH, AS WE'RE GOING THROUGH THESE CONVERSATIONS, I KNOW, UH, EVERYBODY KNOWS WHO YOU ARE HERE. UH, BUT YEAH, JUST MAKE A QUICK WHO YOU ARE AND, UH, USE THE MICROPHONES THROUGHOUT THE PROCESS. THANK YOU. BUT YEAH. SO WE HAVE A MOTION, UH, TO NOMINATE RON CAMI'S, CHAIR BY LON. CAN I GET A SECOND? EDWARD DEL TORO? I SECOND. ALRIGHT. ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE. AYE. AYE. ALL OPPOSED? ALL RIGHT, RON, I, I'LL TURN IT OVER TO YOU AS THE CHAIR. IF Y'ALL WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A CO-CHAIR, WE CAN DO THAT. ALRIGHT. DO I HAVE A NOMINATION FOR CO-CHAIR? EDWARD, ARE YOU UP FOR IT? OR ? YEAH, THAT'S, AND YOU CAN MAKE THE NOMINATION AS, AS THE NO. EDWARD. HAVE A SECOND. CAN I, CAN I SECOND? NO, NO. IT'LL OUGHT TO BE LON. JUST TO, UH, THIS IS LON CULBERTSON. I'LL SECOND THE, UH, UH, MOTION FOR CO-CHAIR. ALL RIGHT. WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND FOR EVERY FOR CO-CHAIR. ANY DISCUSSION? HEARING NONE. ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE. AYE. OPPOSED? MOTION CARRIES. EXCELLENT. THANK YOU CHAIR. ALRIGHT. UH, AGENDA ITEM NUMBER TWO IS TO VOTE TO ADD OR REMOVE SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS TO OR FROM THE SUB SUBCOMMITTEE. AS I MENTIONED, UH, BOARD MEMBER JOE LAOS HAS OFFERED, UH, TO JOIN THIS SUBCOMMITTEE. HE WASN'T ABLE TO MAKE IT TODAY, BUT, UH, HE SAYS HE'D LIKE TO BE THERE IN THE FUTURE. WE CURRENTLY HAVE FOUR, UH, PRIMARIES, SO I NEED A QUORUM OF THREE. SO ADDING HIM AS A FIFTH, UH, EVEN WHEN HE'S NOT ABLE TO MAKE IT, DOESN'T CHANGE WHAT I NEED AS FAR AS A QUORUM, BUT IT DOES HELP US IN CASE WE DO OUR LITTLE SHORTHANDED. UH, HE'S USUALLY PRETTY GOOD ABOUT RESPONDING AND BEING HERE, UH, ON A SHORT NOTICE. OKAY. I WOULD ENTERTAIN A MOTION TO ADD HIM TO THE COMMITTEE. THE SUBCOMMITTEE EDWARD DEL TORO IS SECOND THE MOTION. UH, YOU'LL MAKE THE MOTION? YEAH. ENTERTAIN THE MOTION. I ENTERTAIN THE MOTION. OKAY. CAN I GET A SECOND, OR, SORRY, YOUR HONOR. MOTION. DO I HAVE A SECOND? [00:05:01] YEAH, THIS IS LON. I'LL SECOND. DO WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND? ANY DISCUSSION? HEARING THE MOTION CARRIES. OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. SO I'M GONNA TURN IT OVER TO, UH, SYSTEM DIRECTOR CRYSTAL GONZALEZ AND, UH, CHIEF VALERIE GLEASON TO GO OVER ALL THE CHANGES TO THE NEC AS WELL AS ANOTHER. SO WE HAVE THAT AS AGENDA ITEM NUMBER THREE. AGENDA ITEM NUMBER FOUR IS IF WE HAVE ANY ITEMS, UH, THAT DON'T TECHNICALLY FALL UNDER NEC THAT WE HAVE TO DISCUSS, THAT'S MORE REGISTRATION OR POLICY THAT ARE TECHNICALLY CHAPTER 10. SO WE HAVE BOTH OF THOSE COVERED IN CASE, UH, WE NEED TO, AND WHAT WE'LL NEED TO DO AT THE END OF THE MEETING IF IS TECHNICALLY HAVE TWO MOTIONS TO KIND OF CLARIFY ANYTHING THAT WAS TALKED ABOUT UNDER THE NEC. IF WE DO HAVE ANYTHING THAT FALLS UNDER AGENDA ITEM NUMBER FOUR TODAY, WE'LL NEED TO MAKE A MOTION ON THAT. I'M NOT SURE IF WE DO OR NOT, BUT IT'S, WE'LL KEEP THAT ON THE AGENDA. OKAY. SO THAT'LL JUST BE A CARRY OVER AGENDA ITEM AS THOSE COME UP. OKAY. PERFECT. I'LL TURN IT OVER TO CRYSTAL. THERE YOU GO. UM, CHIEF VALERIE GLEASON WILL BE LEADING OUR, UH, DISCUSSION OF NEC UPDATES AND, AND PROPOSED CHANGES TODAY. GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. THIS IS VALERIE GLEASON, CHIEF ELECTRICAL INSPECTOR FOR THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE. WE'LL GO AHEAD AND GET STARTED, UH, WITH SECTION 100. DOES EVERYBODY HAVE A COPY? GET THIS? OKAY. DO WE HAVE NONE? I BELIEVE THESE ARE ONLY THE FIRST FEW PAGES, BUT WE'LL SEE HOW FAR WE GET . ALL RIGHT. THIS IS, UH, TO START WITH ARTICLE 100. BASICALLY TO MEET THE, UM, NEC CODE DEFINITION OR THE CODE DESIGN, THEY MOVED ALL THE DEFINITIONS BACK TO ARTICLE 100. IT'S PRETTY BASIC, UH, ACCESSIBLE AS APPLIES TO EQUIPMENT, DEALS WITH EQUIPMENT RENDERED INACCESSIBLE BY PIPING SYSTEMS, DUCT WORK BUILDING COMPONENTS. THEY'VE ADDED CLASS FOUR CIRCUIT THAT COINCIDES WITH NEW ARTICLE 7 26. AGAIN, ARTICLE 100, THEY ADDED A COUNTERTOP DEFINITION AND THAT WILL HELP US, UH, TO CLARIFY WHAT CONSTITUTES AS A COUNTERTOP AND TO CORRESPOND WITH THE CHANGES TO 2 10 52 C, WHICH WE'LL DISCUSS LATER. ENERGY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM, UH, TO CORRELATE WITH THE ENERGY CODES, THE DEFINITION FOR THAT WAS ADDED LIKELY TO BECOME ENERGIZED. UH, CLARIFIED A PHRASE THAT WAS ALWAYS USED FOR THE NEC BUT NEVER DEFINED PVDC CIRCUIT, PV SOURCE CIRCUIT AND PV STRING CIRCUIT NEW PHRASES TO CORRESPOND ALSO WITH ARTICLE SIX 90 PV DESIGNS AND ARTICLE 100 ALSO LISTED WORK SURFACE DEFINED SO THAT PROPER ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT IS USED FOR THAT LOCATION. OKAY, ANY QUESTIONS? ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS ON THE, UH, CHANGES TO ARTICLE 100? OKAY, SO ARTICLE ONE 10, MOVING ON. UM, THEY ADDED ONE 10.3 A EIGHT. IT DEALS WITH, UH, CYBERSECURITY FOR NETWORK, NETWORK CONNECTED LIFE SAFETY EQUIPMENT AND ADDRESS ITS ABILITY TO WITHSTAND UNAUTHORIZED UPDATES AND MALICIOUS ATTACKS. ONE TEN THREE B, IT'S EQUIPMENT THAT'S LISTED, LABELED OR BOTH WHEN YOU SEE A HIGHLIGHT IN BLACK SUCH AS THAT, IT'S JUST VERBIAGE THAT WAS ADDED OR MODIFIED IDENTIFIED FOR A USE SHALL BE INSTALLED IN ACCORDS WITH LISTING LABEL OR IDENTIFICATION. ONE 10 POINT 16 B ARC FLASH LABELS SHALL APPLY TO SERVICE AND FEEDER SUPPLIED EQUIPMENT WAS REDUCED FROM 1200 AMPS TO A THOUSAND AMPS. MM-HMM, 1 10 17 SERVICING AND ELECTRICAL PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE OF EQUIPMENT SHALL BE PERFORMED BY QUALIFIED PERSONS TRAINED IN SERVICING AND MAINTENANCE OF THE EQUIPMENT AND SHALL COMPLY WITH ITEMS ONE AND TWO. I DIDN'T WANNA GET AS VERBOSE TO ADD THOSE SECTIONS. SO, 1 10 20, WHEN RECONDITIONED EQUIPMENT IS TO BE LISTED OR FIELD LABELED, NOT LISTED OR FIELD LABELED, OR THIRD OPTION FOR AN HJ TO MAKE DETERMINATION. SO THERE ARE SEVERAL SECTIONS THAT EXPANDED FROM THIS CODE AND FROM THE LAST CODE, THE 2020 THAT DEALT WITH WHAT CAN AND CANNOT BE RECONDITIONED. SO 1 10 26 [00:10:01] AND ALSO SECTION 1 10 33 A. SOME CHANGES WERE MADE ON THE WORKING SPACE ACCESS AND EGRESS. IT SHALL NOT BE RESTRICTED TO LESS THAN 24 INCHES WIDE, SIX AND A HALF FEET HIGH WHEN ONE OR MORE EQUIPMENT DOORS ARE OPEN. LEMME EXPLAIN THAT ONE. YEAH. THE, THE WIDTH AND HEIGHT REQUIREMENT HASN'T REALLY CHANGED. WHAT THEY DID ADD IS THE, THE NECESSITY FOR THAT REQUIREMENT TO BE IN PLACE WHEN THE DOORS WERE OPEN, THE DOORS WERE OPEN. RIGHT. SO IT ACTUALLY WAS GONNA CREATE A NEED FOR EVEN MORE SPACE SOMEWHAT. SO, OKAY, ONE 10 POINT 26, A SIX AND ONE 10.34 A GRADE FLOOR OR WORKING SPACE PLATFORM SHALL BE LEVEL AND FLAT FOR THE ENTIRE REQUIRED WIDTH AND DEPTH OF WORKING SPACE EQUIPMENT AT 1 10 29. UH, INSIGHT FROM SHALL BE WITHIN 50 FEET, WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN THERE. UH, AND THEN THEY ALSO ADDED, CLEARLY VISIBLE, IT WAS MOVED FROM ARTICLE 100 BECAUSE THEY SAID UNDER THE NEC STYLE MENU THAT THEY COULDN'T MANDATE HOW THINGS ARE DONE IN ARTICLE 100. YOU CAN ONLY DEFINE IT. OKAY. SO THIS IS OUR FIRST PROPOSED. DO WE GO AHEAD AND GO THROUGH THE CHANGES ON THIS? MM-HMM. , OUR FIRST, UM, CHANGE HAS TO DO WITH SOME COLOR CODING. AS, AS Y'ALL ARE AWARE IN CHAPTER TEN TWO, TEN 0.5. WE DO HAVE REQUIREMENTS FOR COLOR CODING HERE IN SAN ANTONIO. ONE OF THE THINGS WE WERE RUNNING INTO ON THE NEW RESIDENTIAL AND SOME EXISTING RESIDENTIAL IS WHEN THEY WERE USING THE N CABLE TO FEED EQUIPMENT SUCH AS CONDENSING UNITS. UH, THE WHITE WIRE, OF COURSE, WAS BEING USED AS A PHASE CONDUCTOR. UM, AND SOME OF OUR INSPECTORS WERE CALLING THAT OUT BECAUSE IT'S KIND OF AN INTERPRETATION OF THE CODE. SO I WROTE A CODE INTERPRETATION WHERE THAT THE WHITE COULD BE MARKED WITH A PHASE CONDUCTOR. THE CODE INTERPRETATION WAS, UH, WHERE NUMBER 10 OR SMALLER NM CABLE WHERE THE WHITE OR GRADE GROUNDED CONDUCTOR IS USED AS A PHASE IN CON CONDUCTOR. IT SHALL BE PERMITTED TO BE FIELD MARKED WITH THE REQUIRED PHASE CONDUCTOR COLOR THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE VISIBLE LENGTH IN DISCONNECTS JUNCTION BOX PANELS AND TERMINATION POINTS. NO WHITE OR GRAY INSULATION COLORS SHALL BE VISIBLE. AND WHAT THIS WAS, IS ACTUALLY HELPING THE ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS FOR RESIDENTIAL BECAUSE THEN THEY WEREN'T FORCED TO BUY 12 THREE AND CLIP OFF A WIRE OR CAP IT OFF. SO SOME PEOPLE WERE BECOMING VERY LITERAL WITH IT. SO THAT'S WHY WE ENTERED THIS IN HERE. IS EVERYBODY CLEAR ON THAT ONE? OKAY. ALRIGHT. UH, TWO 10.8 A SIX, UH, GFCI PROTECTION REQUIRED FOR ALL 125 VOLT THROUGH TWO 50 VOLT RECEPTACLES IN DWELLING UNIT KITCHENS, WHICH WAS ANOTHER BIG JUMP. IT IS A BIG COST FOR THE INDUSTRY. AGAIN, TWO 10.8 A SEVEN GFCI PROTECTION REQUIRED FOR ALL 125 VOLT THROUGH TWO 50 VOLT RECEPTACLES IN DWELLING UNIT AREAS WITH SINKS AND PROVISIONS FOR FOOD PREP, BEVERAGE PREP, OR COOKING. THOSE ARE BOTH DWELLING UNITS. TWO, 10.8 B FOUR AND SEVEN. THIS IS FOR NON OTHER THAN DWELLING UNITS. THEY ADDED BUFFET SERVING AREAS TO THE LIST OF LOCATIONS REQUIRING GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER PROTECTION FOR RECEPTACLES. ALSO FOR WHERE CORD AND PLUG FIXED OR STATIONARY APPLIANCE APPLIANCES ARE LOCATED WITHIN SIX FEET OF SINK, INC TWO, 10.8 B 13 AQUARIUMS AND BAIT WELLS IN AREAS OTHER THAN DWELLING UNITS REQUIRES THAT RECEPTACLES STALLED WITHIN, INSTALLED WITHIN SIX FEET OF AQUARIUMS BAIT WELLS, AND SIMILAR OPENINGS. OPENING AQUATIC VESSELS OR CONTAINERS SHALL BE PROVIDED WITH GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER PROTECTION. SO TWO 10.8 D UH, GFCI PROTECTION FOR A SPECIFIC LIST OF DWELLING UNIT APPLIANCES, IT JUST ADDED WHAT APPLIANCES ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE GFCI PROTECTION. UM, DO WE NEED TO GO OVER THAT LIST OR IS EVERYBODY GOOD WITH THAT? WE'RE GOOD? NO. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. UH, TWO 10.8 F EXCEPTION NUMBER TWO, THE GFCI PROTECTION FOR LISTED HVAC EQUIPMENT, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE REQUIRED UNTIL SEPTEMBER 1ST, 2026. SO WE ACTUALLY WOULD PROPOSE TO REMOVE A SECTION OUT OF THE CHAPTER 10 WHERE WE WERE FOLLOWING THE STATE'S MANDATE THE LAST TIME AROUND, IS THAT THEY'RE [00:15:01] TRYING TO ALLOW THE HVAC INDUSTRY TO CATCH UP WITH THE GROUND FAULT PROTECTION, I BELIEVE. WHICH SECTION WAS THAT STATE VALERIE QUESTION ON THAT, SIR? YES SIR. THIS IS LON. YES, SIR. UM, THE SEPTEMBER 1 26, WHAT IS THAT DATE? SOME SOMEBODY ELSE ESTABLISHED FOR SOMETHING OR NO, THAT CAME OUT OF THE NECI. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE, WHERE THE CODE MAKING PANEL CAME UP WITH THAT DATE. UM, BUT I KIND OF LOOK FOR IT TO FORWARD. DO YOU, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH IT OR? YEAH, GENERALLY WHAT HAPPENS IS IT'S A REQUIREMENT THAT THE CODE MAKING PANEL GROUP WANTED TO INSTITUTE, BUT BECAUSE OF FEEDBACK FROM THE INDUSTRY MM-HMM. , THEY INQUIRE WITH THEM WHAT WOULD BE A REASONABLE LENGTH OF TIME AND THEN THEY WILL KIND OF NEGOTIATE ON THAT AND ESTABLISH A DATE. MM-HMM. . AND IT'S NOT, IT'S, YOU CAN GO BACK THROUGH VARIOUS CODE CYCLES AND YOU'LL SEE THAT IT HAPPENS PERIODICALLY. RIGHT. THANK YOU. SO, UH, TWO 10 POINT 11 C FOUR ADDITIONAL BRANCH CIRCUITS RATED 15 AMPS OR GREATER SHALL BE PERMITTED TO SERVE RECEPTACLE OUTLETS OTHER THAN THOSE REQUIRED BY 2 10 52 G ONE. UH, WHICH IS RECEPTACLES REQUIRED RECEPTACLES FOR GARAGES. SO THEY'RE PROPOSING TO ALLOW ADDITIONAL 15 AMP RECEPTACLES. SOME OF THE, UM, ELECTRICAL STAFF DID HAVE SOME CONCERN THAT THOSE COULD INADVERTENTLY BE USED FOR THE EV. BUT AGAIN, THAT'S A LEVEL ONE CHARGING. I DON'T SEE THAT'S REALLY GONNA PRESENT A PROBLEM. SO TWO 10 POINT 12 C, ALL 120 VOLT. LET'S SEE, LET ME JUMP AHEAD REAL QUICK, UH, TO THIS, ON THIS, UH, THE 10 AMP CIRCUIT. SO THAT'S A COUPLE LINES BELOW. IT'S 2 10 23, A ONE AND TWO. AND WE'RE PROPOSING NOT ADOPTING THE 10 AMP CIRCUIT. AND ONE OF THE REASONS IS ON FOR SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENCES IN DUPLEXES. THE 15 AMP CIRCUIT IS GIVING US SO MUCH PROBLEMS WITH TRYING TO ASK FOR LOW CALCULATION. AND THESE, UH, THE CONTRACTORS, SOME OF THE GUYS THAT ARE WIRING THE HOUSES ARE LOADING THE CIRCUITS DOWN TOO MUCH. AND I'M JUST AFRAID WE'RE GONNA HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH THE 10 AMP CIRCUIT, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE 10 AMP IS LI IS LISTED, I'M SORRY, LIMITED TO CERTAIN DEVICES AND CERTAIN LOADS. AND I JUST SEE IT PRESENTING A BIG PROBLEM FOR US. SO NOT ASKING TO RESTRICT EQUIPMENT, JUST ASKING IF WE DON'T, WE COULD CONSIDER NOT ADOPTING THE 10 AMP CIRCUIT. YEAH. FOR THIS FIRST TIME AROUND, WHAT, WHAT I WOULD RECOMMEND WE DO MM-HMM. IS FOLLOW CITY'S RECOMMENDATION. AND THEN DURING THE NEXT CODE CYCLE REVIEW, IF THERE'S BEEN ANY ISSUES THAT HAVE ARISEN OUT OF RESULT OF US NOT ADOPTING THE 10 AMP MM-HMM. , THEN WE CAN REEVALUATE IT AT THAT TIME. BUT I THINK IT'S A GOOD RIGHT THING TO DO BECAUSE I WOULD AGREE WITH THE 15 AMP, IT'S MINIMUM IS MORE THAN IT'S A PROBLEM ALREADY CAUSING ISSUES. YEAH, IT IS. COULD, COULD WE TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHERE THAT'S COMING FROM IN THE INDUSTRY AND WHAT THAT MEANS FOR WIRE SIZE? THAT'S, THAT'S A NEW ONE TO ME. UH, THE 14 AMP, UH, THEY'RE GONNA STILL USE THE 14 NUMBER 14 WIRE BECAUSE OF THE STATE LAW THAT PASSED WHERE WE CAN NO LONGER RESTRICT A MATERIAL THAT'S IN A MODEL CODE. UM, SO NUMBER 14 IS THE PROPOSED WIRE SIZE. THE SECTION DOES LIMIT IT TO CERTAIN LIGHTING OUTLETS, EXHAUST FANS IN BATHROOMS. AND I BELIEVE THERE'S ONE OTHER TYPE OF SMALL LOAD. UM, THAT'S ABOUT ALL I HAVE FOR IT. THAT IT'S, IT, WE HAVE TO ASK FOR LOAD CALCULATIONS MANY TIMES ON THE 15 AMP CIRCUITS BECAUSE THEY JUST GET LOADED DOWN TOO MUCH. AND WITH THE LED LIGHTS, IF THEY'RE ONE OF THE SMALLER TYPES THAT AREN'T FOR, UM, THAT SAY THEY DON'T HAVE A MAXIMUM WATTAGE, THAT THEY'RE AN ACTUAL LOW LED, THEN THEY CAN ADD SO MANY MORE LIGHT FIXTURES ONTO THE CIRCUIT AND IT REALLY SLOWS DOWN GETTING A HOUSE FINAL, GETTING ITS ROUGH IN PASS WHEN WE'RE ASKING FOR LOW CALCS ON CIRCUITS. AND THAT'S THE NEXT PHONE CALL I GET. AS SOON AS ONE OF MY GUYS HAS ASKED FOR A LOAD JOB, I'M THINKING THE 10 AMP WILL BE THE SAME PROBLEM. YEAH, THAT ALL MAKES SENSE. I WAS JUST CURIOUS. MM-HMM. WHAT WAS DRIVING, EVEN HAVING A 10 AMP CIRCUIT BREAKER. UM, I THINK THEY FINALLY CAME UP WITH THEM, IS MY UNDERSTANDING. SO MAYBE, YEAH, LIGHTER LOADS WITH LED LIGHTING. BUT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO, WE'RE, THE INDUSTRY IS REALLY STRUGGLING TO, TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPACT OF LED LIGHTING ON BRANCH CIRCUITS NOW. MM-HMM. , I'M NOT, YOU EVEN ON COMMERCIAL CONSTRUCTION WHERE THEY DO A, A LOT GREATER IN DEPTH EVALUATION OF LOADS. MM-HMM. , I'M REALLY NOT SEEING A REDUCTION IN THE NUMBER OF, OR AN INCREASE RATHER IN THE NUMBER OF LIGHTING OUTLETS OR LIGHTING FIXTURES ALLOWED ON WHITE BRANCH SURFACES. THEY'RE STILL MAINTAINING VERY SIMILAR APPROACHES, WHAT THEY DID SAY 10 YEARS AGO. SO I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU'RE GONNA APPLY THIS IN A RESIDENTIAL ENVIRONMENT [00:20:01] WHEN THEY TAKE, YOU KNOW, GENERALLY TAKE ROOMS AND CIRCUIT 'EM TOGETHER WITH THE LIGHTING. MM-HMM. . SO THANK YOU. SO THAT'S KIND OF WHY I JUMPED TO THAT ONE, BECAUSE WE DO HAVE OTHER SECTIONS THAT MENTION THE TAN APP. AND RATHER THAN INCORPORATE ALL OF THOSE INTO THE CHAPTER 10, BY ELIMINATING THE 10 AMP ON EVERY ONE OF THOSE SECTIONS, WE WERE PROPOSING JUST REMOVING THE 10 AMP FROM THE MAIN SECTION. SO, UH, 2 10 19, UM, MENTIONS A 10 AMP AND WE'RE NOT, AGAIN, WE'RE NOT RESTRICTING A WIRE SIZE BECAUSE WE ALLOW THE NUMBER 14. SO ALL WE'RE ASKING IS TO CONSIDER NOT ADOPTING THE 10 OUT. SO IN THE NEXT SECTION, CHAPTER 10, SECTION 2, 10 30 B, UM, A PORTION OF THIS, ACTUALLY THIS WAS REMOVED IN THE LAST CHAPTER 10 BECAUSE AT THE TIME IT DID, UH, RESTRICT SOME CERTAIN WIRING METHODS. AND WHAT WE WERE ASKING FOR CONSIDERATION IS THE CONCRETE ENCASEMENT FOR SERVICE LATERALS TO BE PUT BACK IN ON THE HDPE, THE R-T-R-C-N-U-C-C AND TYPE PVC. AGAIN, WE'RE NOT RESTRICTING THE MATERIAL, WE'RE LOOKING AT A WIRING METHOD ABOUT MAKING A STRICTER WIRING METHOD FOR THE SERVICE LATERALS. IS IT TWO 30, RIGHT? YES. UHHUH 2 32 10. I'M SORRY. TWO 10 POINT 30 B UNDER CHAPTER 10. TWO 30. TWO 30, YEAH. YES, YOU'RE RIGHT. MY APOLOGIES, GENTLEMEN. IT'S TWO 30 POINT 30 B. WHAT DO I HAVE THERE? OKAY. I AM CURIOUS IF, IF WE'RE SEEING, UH, APPLICATIONS WHERE THEY WERE TRYING TO UTILIZE THESE NEW WEARING METHODS THAT, THAT WE DIDN'T ALLOW PREVIOUSLY. WERE WE SEEING AN INFLUX THAT IS STARTING TO COME UP OR NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, NO, SIR. UM, I STILL SEE A PREDOMINANCE OF PVC USED A LOT. UM, OKAY. SO, UH, CHAPTER 10, THIS IS ANOTHER SECTION WE'RE PROPOSING. I JUMPED AHEAD ON THAT ONE BECAUSE THIS SECTION WAS LISTED INCORRECTLY. CHAPTER TEN TWO TEN FIFTY TWO B ONE, IN ADDITION TO THE REQUIRED RECEPTACLE SPECIFIED BY 2 10 52, A REQUIRED OUTLET, RECEPTACLE OUTLET TO SERVE A SPECIFIC APPLIANCE SHALL BE PERMITTED TO BE SUPPLIED BY AN INDIVIDUAL BRANCH CIRCUIT OF 15 AMPS. WE'RE PROPOSING REMOVING THIS SECTION FROM THE CHAPTER 10, UM, THE EXCEPTION TWO HAS BEEN XED OUT. AND THE REASON THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HAVING THIS SECTION REMOVED, UM, IS BECAUSE THERE ARE, THE LOADS ARE MORE EFFICIENT NOW, ESPECIALLY DISHWASHERS. DISPOSALS. AND WE SEE NO REASON WHY IT COULDN'T BE A 15 AMP CIRCUIT, ESPECIALLY SINCE IT'S DEDICATED. OKAY. SO CHAPTER TEN TWO, TEN FIFTY TWO C TWO. THIS IS ANOTHER SECTION THAT I ENDED UP WRITING A CI. THIS WAS A CODE INTERPRETATION. THIS WAS, UH, GOT A LITTLE HEATED OVER TIME AND IT HAD TO DO WITH THE 2020 ALLOWANCE TO MOUNT COUNTER AND PENINSULA RECEPTACLES OVER THE SIDE. AND THE CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION'S STUDY THAT FOUND OUT HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, CHILDREN, ESPECIALLY WERE INJURED BY PULLING THE APPLIANCES DOWN ON THEMSELVES, UH, WITH THE STATE ADOPTING THE CODE. THE, UH, 2023 NATIONAL ELECTRIC CODE ON SEPTEMBER 1ST. UM, A LOT OF CONTRACTORS WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR LIABILITY AND, AND NOT INSTALLING. OR WHAT THEY WANTED TO GO WITH WAS THE JUNCTION BOX FOR FUTURE AND NOT INSTALL A RECEPTACLE. AND WHAT WE DID WAS WE WROTE A CODE INTERPRETATION AND ALLOW THEM TO USE THIS SECTION, BUT WE TOOK OUT THE J BOX FOR FUTURE. SO WHAT WE WERE ASKING FOR WAS A COUNTERTOP INSTALLATION. ONE OF THE LISTED, UM, LIKE THE POPUP, ALTHOUGH WE'RE NOT SAYING JUST A POPUP, THERE ARE SEVERAL DEVICES OUT THERE, BUT A LIST OF DEVICE FOR KITCHEN COUNTERTOP INSTALLATION OR 20, WITHIN 20 INCHES OF THE COUNTERTOP. IF THEY HAVE A BACKSPLASH, PARDON ME. UM, WE'D LIKE TO SEE IF THAT COULD BE AMENDED INTO THE SECTION BY NOT INTO THE CHAPTER 10 BY REMOVING THAT J BOX FOR FUTURE SECTION. UH, WHEN IT PRESENTED THAT TO THE DIRECTOR, HE FELT LIKE THAT COULD PRESENT A DANGER OF PEOPLE TRYING TO GET INTO IT, ADDING THEIR OWN RECEPTACLE BELOW THE COUNTER, JUST TYING INTO IT, RUNNING A CORD OVER THE COUNTERTOP. SO WE CONSIDERED THAT TO BE DANGEROUS. SO, [00:25:06] OKAY. 2 10 52 GA RECEPTACLE SUPPLYING PERMANENTLY INSTALLED PREMISES SECURITY SYSTEM, UH, DOESN'T MEET THE REQUIREMENTS FOR 2 10 50 G ONE THROUGH THREE. UM, AS FAR AS RECEPTACLES FOR GARAGES, ACCESSORY BUILDINGS AND BASEMENTS, TWO 10 POINT 70 WALL SWITCH, UH, FOR REQUIRED LIGHT LIGHTING OUTLETS SHALL NOT DEPEND ON BATTERY POWER ALONE MEANS SHALL BE PROVIDED TO ENERGIZE THE LIGHTING IF THE BATTERY FAILS. UH, TWO 15 POINT 15 WHEN FEEDER TAPS OR TRANSFORMER SECONDARIES, SUPPLY PANELS SWITCH, SWITCHBOARDS, SWITCH GEAR, OR MOTOR CONTROL CENTERS. THERE MUST BE BARRIERS AT LOW TERMINATIONS WHEN TERMINATIONS REMAIN ENERGIZED, WHEN THE DISCONNECT FOR THE TAP OR TRANSFORMER SECONDARY IS IN THE OPEN POSITION, IS AGAIN, ANOTHER SETUP FOR PROTECTION FOR ELECTRICIANS. SO TWO 15 POINT 18 A WHERE A FEEDER SUPPLIES ANY OF THE FOLLOWING, A SURGE PROTECTIVE DEVICE SHALL BE INSTALLED. DWELLING UNITS, DORMITORY UNITS, GUEST ROOMS, AND GUEST SUITES OF HOTELS AND MOTELS, AREAS OF NURSING HOMES AND LIMITED CARE FACILITIES USED EXCLUSIVELY AS PATIENT SLEEPING ROOMS. UM, SO IT LISTS A LIST OF LOCATIONS WHERE THE SURGE PROTECTION, SURGE PROTECTION IS REQUIRED. UH, WHEN FEEDER SUPPLIED EQUIPMENT IS REPLACED, THE SURGE PROTECTION IS REQUIRED TO BE INSTALLED. IT'S THE SAME VERBIAGE THAT WAS USED IN ARTICLES 2 22, 25, 42, AND TWO 30.6. EVERYBODY GOOD WITH THAT SO FAR? OKAY. MOVING ON TO ARTICLE TWO 20, UH, TWO 20.1, UH, INFORMATION WAS ADDED FOR CALCULATION METHODS OF HEALTH HEALTHCARE FACILITIES, MARINAS, FLOATING BUILDINGS AND COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL DOCKING FACILITIES. 2 25 C AREAS SUCH AS GARAGES OR UNUSED UNFINISHED SPACES. SPACES ARE NO LONGER EXCLUSIVE. EXCLUDED FROM DWELLING UNIT LOAD CALCULATIONS WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FINISHING THESE AREAS OUT LATER ON . SO TWO 20 POINT 57, THE EVS SE LOAD SHALL BE CALCULATED AT MINIMUM 7,200 WATTS OR THE NAMEPLATE RATING OF THE EQUIPMENT, WHICHEVER IS LARGER. SO IT'S ELECTRIC VEHICLES. SO WE'LL BE GOING BY THAT 7,200 WAT VALUE. I HAVE HAD SOME LOAD COUNTS COME IN SOMEWHAT SMALLER THAN THAT. SO TWO 20.1 10 RECEPTACLE LOADS IN HEALTHCARE FACILITIES SHALL BE CALCULATED PER 2 20 14 H OR I AND SUPPLIED BY BRANCH CIRCUITS NOT EXCEEDING 150 VOLTS TO GROUND. THEY'RE PERMITTED TO USE THE DEMAND FACTORS IN NEW TABLES. TWO 20.1 TEN ONE OR TWO 20.1 TEN TWO FOR ONE IN TWO FAMILY DWELL, I'M SORRY, 2 25 0.41. ONE IN TWO FAMILY DWELLINGS AND EMERGENCY DISCONNECTING MEANS AT A READILY ACCESSIBLE LOCATION SHALL BE INSTALLED. UH, THAT'S FOR A BUILDING SERVED BY A FEEDER. SO SAME, SAME PRINCIPLE AS REQUIRED FOR A SERVICE DISCONNECT ON THE OUTSIDE OR AS EMERGENCY DISCONNECTING MEANS TWO 30.42 A ONE AND TWO SIZE OF SERVICE CONDUCTORS TO BE BASED ON CONTINUOUS AND NON-CONTINUOUS LOADS. MINIMUM SIZE OF SERVICE ENTRANCE CONDUCTORS SHALL HAVE AN CAPACITY, NOT LESS THAN A MAXIMUM LOAD AFTER THE APPLICATION OF ADJUSTMENT FACTORS. TWO 30.62 C BARRIERS REQUIRED IN SERVICE EQUIPMENT SUCH THAT NO UNINSULATED, UNGROUNDED SERVICE, BUSBAR OR TERMINAL IS EXPOSED TO INADVERTENT CONTACT WHILE SERVICE DISCONNECT IS IN THE OPEN POSITION. THE BARRIERS, AGAIN FOR PROTECTION 2 30 67 B EXCEPTION, THE SURGE PROTECTIVE DEVICE SHALL NOT BE REQUIRED TO BE LOCATED AT THE SERVICE EQUIPMENT AS REQUIRED IN 2 30 67 B IF LOCATED AT EACH NEXT LEVEL DISTRIBUTION EQUIPMENT DOWNSTREAM TOWARDS THE LOAD. ANY COMMENTS ON THAT ONE? OKAY. TWO 30.71 B TRANSFER SWITCHES WERE ADDED TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE TWO TO SIX SERVICE. DISCONNECTING MEANS ADDITIONAL SECTIONS WERE [00:30:01] ADDED FOR METERING CENTERS AND MOTOR CONTROL CENTERS. TWO 30.71 B EXCEPTION EXISTING SERVICE EQUIPMENT INSTALLED IN COMPLIANCE WITH PREVIOUS ADDITIONS OF CODE THAT PERMITTED THE TWO TO SIX SERVING DIS SERVICE DISCONNECTS IN A SINGLE ENCLOSURE SHALL BE PERMITTED TO CONTAIN A MAXIMUM OF SIX SERVICE DISCONNECTING MEANS. UH, WE'VE HAD SOME CONFUSION OVER THAT WHEN SOMEBODY JUST WANTS TO ADD ONE CIRCUIT OR ONE MORE BREAKER WHEN THERE'S FOUR OR FIVE IN THERE, AND WE HAVE ALLOWED IT BASED ON THIS SECTION SO THAT WAY THEY DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE OUT THE ENTIRE SERVICE. SO, SO DO YOU HAVE, I'M CURIOUS, DO YOU ACTUALLY COUNT, DO YOU ACTUALLY COUNT THE BREAKERS OR DO YOU COUNT THE HANDLES? 'CAUSE I KNOW THEY'VE GOT THESE KIND OF SQUIRLY LOOKING HANDLE TIES THAT THEY PUT IN SOME OF THESE DIFFERENT THINGS. I COUNT THE BREAKERS. YEAH. YEAH. 'CAUSE I'VE SEEN 'EM WHERE IT'S ACTUALLY MM-HMM, TWO, TWO PULP BREAKERS. MM-HMM. WITH ONE HANDLE TIE. WITH ONE HANDLE TIE. YEAH. YEAH. SO QUE QUESTION ON THAT. YES, SIR. UH, GET SOME EDUCATION HERE TOO. UHHUH . SO, AND I, I VIEW THAT AS A KIND OF A MAG MANUFACTURING TECHNIQUE. KIND OF A CHEAP, INEXPENSIVE WAY TO DO, GET MORE CAPACITY. MM-HMM. . BUT I HAVE SEEN WHERE I'VE SPECIFIED A BREAKER AND SEEN THAT BE INSTALLED IS, IS IT, SO I WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE ONE BREAKER, BUT I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THERE. MM-HMM. . WELL, SO THAT, THAT'S WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION IS ARE WE TALKING BREAKERS OR ARE WE TALKING HANDLES? BECAUSE IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE. IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. AND I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT, UH, KIND OF TANDEM, NOT REALLY TANDEM, BUT THAT CONFIGURATION HOW THE MANUFACTURER IS A BREAKER OR IS IT A ASSEMBLY OR, I MEAN, IF IT WERE A LISTED HANDLE TIE THAT ALLOWED IT TO ACT AS, AS THE BREAKER SHOULD, IT SHOULD TRIP AND BOTH, BOTH DEVICES WOULD TRIP WITH THAT HANDLE TIE. I THINK. I STILL THINK THAT THEY'RE COUNTING 'EM AS, AS HANDLED AS BREAKERS, THOUGH NOT HANDLES. SO I DON'T KNOW THAT I'VE EVER BEEN ASKED THAT QUESTION THOUGH, JUAN, TO BE HONEST. SO THIS IS GARY WITH HILL ELECTRIC? YES, SIR. UM, BUT I'VE SEEN THE QUAD BREAKERS MM-HMM. THAT TAKE THE PLACE OF A STANDARD TWO POLE MM-HMM. BREAKER. BUT THEY'RE ACTUALLY TECHNICALLY TWO SEPARATE DOUBLE POLE BREAKERS. CORRECT. AND IN MY INTERPRETATION, I WOULD SEE THAT AS TWO SEPARATE HANDLES. YOU WOULD SEE IT AS TWO SEPARATE HANDLES. YEAH. OKAY. THAT'S, I THINK THAT'S THE WAY WE'RE LOOKING AT IT. SO THAT THE MAIN, THE MAIN THING IS JUST CONSISTENCY. SO WE'D MM-HMM. INDUSTRY KNOW THIS, THIS IS CORRECT, CORRECT. YES, SIR. THANK YOU. OKAY. SO TWO 30.85 FOR ONE IN TWO FAMILY DWELLINGS AND EXTERIOR EMERGENCY DISCONNECTING MEANS IS REQUIRED ADDITIONAL SECTIONS ADDED FOR LOCATION GROUPING, TYPE OF DISCONNECT, REPLACEMENT REQUIREMENTS, IDENTIFICATION FOR OTHER ISOLATION DISCONNECTS FOR DISTRIBUTED GENERATION SYSTEMS WHEN NOT GROUPED AND MARKING REQUIREMENTS. UH, WE'VE ALREADY WORKED WITH THE SA FDS, THE FIRE DEPARTMENT TO COME UP WITH SOME SIGNAGE FOR THESE RESIDENTIAL GENERATORS THAT HAVE COME IN WHEN THE DE GENERATOR IS LOCATED SOMEWHAT AWAY FROM THE SERVICE. THERE'S SIGNAGE ON THAT TO INDICATE WHERE IT IS. SO ARTICLE 2 35 IS A NEW ARTICLE. IT'S FOR BRANCH CIRCUITS, FEEDERS AND SERVICES OVER A THOUSAND VOLTS AC OR 1500 VOLTS DC AND WE'RE STARTING TO SEE A LITTLE BIT MORE MEDIUM VOLTAGE MOVING IN. SO, UH, TWO 40.2 GCIS AND GROUND FAULT PROTECTIVE DEVICES SHALL NOT BE RECONDITIONED. OKAY. TWO 40.4 B. THIS IS A SECTION ALSO THAT WE WERE LOOKING AT. THIS IS FOR THE UP TO 800 AMPS SECTION, UH, FOR THE ADJUSTABLE TRIP THAT WAS ADDED. UH, SOME CONCERN WAS RAISED FROM OUR PLAN REVIEW FOLKS AND FROM INSPECTION SIDE THAT WANTED TO CONSIDER THIS NOT BEING ADOPTED. UM, THEIR CONCERN WAS, I'VE HAD, I HAVE A NUMBER OF INSPECTORS THAT HAVE WORKED IN MAINTENANCE IN [00:35:01] HOSPITALS. I KNOW THE INDUSTRY PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE TOO HAPPY WITH THIS, BUT, UH, EVEN IF IT'S LOCKED OFF AND PROTECTED, THE MAINTENANCE GUYS HAVE GONE IN THERE AND DIALED THESE THINGS BACK UP AGAIN. SO WHAT THEY'RE, THE SECTION WOULD ALLOW A SMALLER WIRE SIZE TO CORRESPOND WITH THE DIALED DOWN AMPACITY, WHICH WE HAVE A CONCERN ABOUT. SO EVEN IF IT'S LOCKED OUT AND PROTECTED, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT WHO ARE QUALIFIED THAT WE'LL STILL GO IN THERE AND DIAL THE THING BACK UP AGAIN. SO WE'RE PROPOSING NOT ADOPTING THAT SECTION. SO ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? YEAH, THAT'S, THAT'S WORTH A LITTLE BIT OF DISCUSSION. MAYBE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT, UM, IF YOU CAN GIVE US AN EXAMPLE WHAT THAT MIGHT BE. SO YOU COULD HAVE, YOU COULD HAVE FOR AN EXAMPLE, AN 800 FRAME BREAKER WITH A 600 AMP TRIP UNIT. MM-HMM. . OKAY. OR YOU COULD HAVE AN ADJUSTABLE TRIP UNIT WHERE THEY DIAL IT DOWN TO 600 AMPS. RIGHT. WELL, IN THAT ENVIRONMENT THEN PER CODE, YOU COULD PUT 600 AMPS WORTH OF CABLE CAPACITY ON THAT BREAKER. BUT THEN SOMEBODY COMES IN BEHIND IT AFTER THE FACT AND THEN DIALS IT UP TO 700, 7 50, MAYBE ALL THE WAY UP TO THE 800 HALF FRAME WRITING OF THE BREAKER. AND, BUT YOU'VE ONLY GOT 600 AMPS OF WATER. MM-HMM. . AND, AND THERE IS A LOT OF INSTALLATIONS JUST LIKE THAT. SO IS THIS A CHANGE WHERE, OR IS THAT ALWAYS NOT ALLOWED? NO, IT'S A NEW SECTION. UM, I THINK IT'S ALWAYS BEEN REQUIRED, UH, IN TWO 40.4 B, WHICH IS THE STEP UP RULE UP TO 800 AMPS FOR CONDUCTORS. UM, I THINK THAT SECTION WAS NEW WHERE IT SAID YOU COULD USE THE DIAL DOWN AMPACITY TO SIZE YOUR CONDUCTORS. YEAH. I, I, THIS EDWARD EDWARD DOES HORRIBLE. UH, I BELIEVE THAT TWO 40, UH, 0.4 B WAS ALWAYS THERE, BUT THAT SECTION WAS ADDED RIGHT TO IT. SO TWO 40.4 B ONE, TWO AND THREE, AND THIS WAS A SECTION ADDED AFTER THAT. THE OVER CURRENT PROTECTED DEVICE IS AN ADJUSTABLE TRIP. UH, IT SHALL BE PERMITTED TO BE SET TO A VALUE THAT DOES NOT EXCEED THE NEXT HIGHER STANDARD VALUE ABOVE THE AMPACITY OF THE CONDUCTORS BEING PROTECTED AS SHOWN IN TABLE TWO 40.6 A WHERE RESTRICTED ACCESS IN ACCORDANCE WITH TWO 40.6 C IS PROVIDED. BUT AGAIN, THOSE, UM, MAINTENANCE FOLKS, I MEAN, AND THE GUYS ARE QUALIFIED. I'VE EVEN HAD ONE THAT I NOW, AS ONE OF MY INSPECTORS SAY THAT HE DID THAT ON OCCASION. AND THAT'S FRIGHTENING TO THINK ABOUT THAT SOMEBODY GO IN THERE AND DO THAT WITHOUT CHECKING THAT WIRE SIZE THAT WE WOULD HAVE 600 AMPS WORTH OF WIRE ON AN 800 AMP BREAKER. SO ANY OTHER COMMENTS? YEAH, I THINK THAT'S GOOD THEN. SO, SO SAN ANTONIO, WE WOULD NOT ALLOW THAT AND IT WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A RATING PLUG VERSUS THE DIAL UP TO THE NEXT WELL, WELL, EVEN, WELL, YEAH. I WOULD SAY EVEN IF I'M UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE CITIES WANT TO DO, EVEN WITH A RATING PLUG, 'CAUSE RATING PLUGS CAN BE, CAN BE CHANGED OUT JUST MM-HMM. AS A DIAL SETTING CAN BE ADJUSTED. MM-HMM. IS THAT WHATEVER THE FRAME RATING OF THE BREAKER IS YES. BUT THAT, THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ASKING. DECIDES TO, NOT TO THE RATING PLUG OR THE ADJUSTMENT. RIGHT. SO I, SO I SEE THAT AS A BIT OF A PROBLEM. MM-HMM. , BECAUSE OF THE WAY YOU BUY THESE BREAKERS, UM, THE, A LOT OF TIMES THERE'LL BE AN EIGHT BREAKER, A 600 AMP RATING PLUG, AND I THINK IT'S DIFFICULT TO CHANGE OUT. YOU CAN'T JUST WALK UP TO IT. AND I WOULD, I WOULD THINK I WOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ALLOWING THAT WITH THE RATING PLUG VERSUS THE DIAL, YOU KNOW, IF I JUST TURNED IT DOWN TO 0.75 OR SOMETHING. MM-HMM. THAT'S EASY TO, UH, SOMEONE TO WALK UP AND CHANGE. BUT THE RATING PLUG THAT'S, YOU'VE GOT TO GO TO THE MANUFACTURER, GET A RATING PLUG, AND I, I KIND OF VIEW IT AS, UH, WE, WE NEED TO TRUST PEOPLE WHERE THERE'S A CERTAIN LEVEL OF COMPETENCY MM-HMM. ELECTRICAL TRADE THAT WE WOULDN'T EXPECT A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN TO JUST DIAL IT OUT. RIGHT. AND WE WOULD EXPECT A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN TO CHANGE A RATING PLUG. CORRECT. BUT I THINK THE RATING PLUG COULD REMAIN. I MEAN, THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT STRICTLY THE DIAL UP SITUATION, SO, OKAY. SO IF IT, IF IT'S A, REQUIRES A RATING PLUG CHANGE MM-HMM. SAY IT'S AN 800 AMP BREAKER MM-HMM. AND IT HAS 600 AMP RATING PLUG UNIT, THEN WE WOULD BE OKAY WITH THE 600. I, I WOULD BE CONFIDENT WITH THAT. YES. BECAUSE IT'S GONNA TAKE SOME EXTRA WORK AND SOME EXTRA FINANCES TO TAKE CARE OF IT. THIS IS JUST A MATTER OF GOING IN THERE AND OPENING IT UP AND DOING THE DIAL. YEAH. BECAUSE THE ONE PIECE OF THIS THAT I WOULD BE CONCERNED WITH IS THAT, BUT ALSO THAT, YOU KNOW, STICKING WITH OUR 800, [00:40:01] 600 EXAMPLE IS SAY I'VE GOT A PIECE OF EQUIPMENT THAT THE LUGS ARE SET, SET UP FOR 600 AMP WORTH OF CAPACITY AND THEY DON'T EVEN ACCEPT 800 AMPS WORTH CABLE. MM-HMM. . YEAH. YES. AND WHERE I, WHERE I'VE SEEN THAT RON IS, UH, IS KIND OF WHAT THE MANUFACTURER'S PUTTING TOGETHER TO ACCOMPLISH MM-HMM. WHAT I'VE SPECIFIED MM-HMM. . AND SO I, I DON'T SEE THAT AS AN ISSUE. SO I THINK WE'RE CLEAR. OKAY. IF, IF THE LANGUAGE IS CLEAR SO THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, OUT IN THE FIELD THE INSPECTORS MM-HMM. BECAUSE OF THE, THE CODE CHANGE THAT WE'RE REJECTING KIND OF ALLOWS THE DIAL DOWN. MM-HMM. . OKAY. SO WE WERE PROPOSING JUST THAT NEW SECTION RIGHT THERE. NOT ALL OF TWO 40, UH, 0.4 B, JUST THE NEW SECTION AFTER ITEM THREE. OKAY. THANK YOU. TWO 40.4 D THREE, UH, TALKS ABOUT NUMBER 14, COPPER CLAD SHALL BE RATED FOR 10 AMPS, PROVIDED LOADS DO NOT EXCEED EIGHT AMPS OVER CURRENT PROTECTION SHALL BE PROVIDED BY CIRCUIT BREAKERS OR FUSES MARKED FOR USE WITH NUMBER 14 COPPER CLA. AND AGAIN, WE DIDN'T WANNA GO THROUGH ON EVERY ONE OF THESE SECTIONS THAT MENTIONED THE 10 AMP AND X THOSE OUT. IT'S, IT'S TOO MUCH. BUT I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT COULD BE LEFT ALONE REALLY. TWO 40.6 A, AGAIN, THEY ADDED THE 10 AMP, UM, OVER CURRENT DEVICE. TWO 40.6 D ALLOWS FOR REMOTE ACCESS TO ADJUSTABLE TRIP CIRCUIT BREAKERS THROUGH LOCAL NON INTERFACE OR NETWORK NETWORK INTERFACE CONNECTION. NETWORK INTERFACE SHALL BE IDENTIFIED AS BEING CERTIFIED FOR CYBERSECURITY OR A CYBERSECURITY ASSESSMENT OF THE NETWORK IS COMPLETED. DOCUMENTATION OF THIS ASSESSMENT OR CERTIFICATION SHALL BE MADE AVAILABLE TO THOSE AUTHORIZED TO INSPECT, OPERATE, AND MAINTAIN THE SYSTEM. SO RIGHT NOW WE ARE ASKING FOR AN ARC ENERGY REDUCTION LETTER, UH, PER 2 40 66, 2 40 86, UH, THAT THE EQUIPMENT IS FIELD TESTED, EQUIPMENT RATED 1200 AMPS OR GREATER FIELD TESTED WHEN IT ARRIVES ON THE SITE. UM, I DON'T SEE THAT WE REALLY NEED TO ASK, THERE WAS SOME QUESTION ABOUT ASKING, BUT I DON'T WANNA BOG THE INDUSTRY DOWN EVEN FURTHER BY ASKING FOR LETTERS. AND I HAVEN'T SEEN VERY MUCH OF THIS. I DON'T KNOW IF Y'ALL HAVE SEEN SOME OF IT YET, OR A LOT MORE THAN THE, UH, MISSION CRIMINAL MM-HMM. CRITICAL TYPE FACILITIES. CORRECT. WORK ON MM-HMM. AND BECAUSE OF TRYING TO MAINTAIN THE INTEGRITY OF NFPA 70 E THAT THEIR CREW, THAT THEY'RE DOING REMOTE OPERATION BREAKERS. MM-HMM. , IN ADDITION TO THAT, THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO THEN TAKE BREAKERS THAT BASED ON THE ARC FLASH, OUR FAULT STUDY THAT IS DONE MM-HMM. HAVE A MAINTENANCE SETTING THAT REDUCES THOSE LEVELS. AND WHEN THEY HAVE TO GO IN AND WORK ON THE BREAKERS RIGHT. IT'S SAFE TO DO SO. MM-HMM. . UM, AN EXAMPLE OF THAT IS WE DID A FACILITY WHERE THE, THE CALCULATOR VALUES WERE UP CLOSE TO A HUNDRED CALORIES PER CENTIMETER SQUARED. MM-HMM. IN THE MAINTENANCE SETTING, IT DROPPED THEM DOWN TO 12. OKAY. UM, DOESN'T GREET GIVE YOU THE, THE, UH, SELECTED FAULTS MM-HMM. THAT YOU NEED, BUT IT DOES ALLOW YOU TO WORK ON THE EQUIPMENT SAFELY. OKAY. AND THEN, BUT THEY CAN DO ALL OF THOSE SETTINGS AND OPERATIONS REMOTELY. OKAY. OUTSIDE OF THE ENVIRONMENT. SO YOU STAY OUT OF, KEEP THE PERSONNEL SAFE. OKAY. SO THOSE KIND OF SYSTEMS ARE SET UP ON NETWORKS. MM-HMM. . AND A LOT OF TIMES THEY MONITOR THOSE, MONITOR THOSE NETWORKS REMOTELY. AND SO THEN CYBERSECURITY BECOMES A CONCERN AT THAT POINT. RIGHT. OKAY. UH, TWO 40.7 A BRANCH CIRCUIT OVER CURRENT DEVICES, RELAYS AND CIRCUIT PRO CIRCUIT BREAKERS THAT PROVIDE GROUND FAULT PROTECTION ARE GROUT AND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTERS SHALL BE LISTED. TWO 40 POINT 11 AND TWO 40 POINT 12. UH, WERE NEW SELECTIVE COORDINATION REQUIREMENTS. UM, THIS WAS ADDED BY ONE OF THE INSPECTORS THAT DEALS WITH THE DATA. WE'RE STILL TALKING IN-HOUSE, WHETHER OR NOT WE'RE GONNA ASK FOR LETTERS ON THESE IN A CERTAIN APPLICATIONS THAT THEY'VE DONE THEIR DUE DILIGENCE ON THE SELECTIVE COORDINATION. SO TWO 40 POINT 16, IT SPECIFIES THE MINIMUM INTERRUPTING RATING OF BRANCH CIRCUIT [00:45:01] OVER CURRENT DEVICES. 5,000 AMPS 2 40 24 E OVER CURRENT PROTECTIVE DEVICES. OTHER SUPPLEMENTARY OVER CURRENT PROTECTION SHALL NOT BE LOCATED IN BATHROOMS, SHOWERING FACILITIES OR LOCKER ROOMS WITH SHOWER FACILITIES. SO THEY FINALLY TOOK THEM OUTTA COMMERCIAL BATHROOMS TOO. . SO TWO 40 POINT 89 REPLACEMENT TRIP UNITS SHALL BE LISTED FOR USE WITH CIRCUIT BREAKER TYPE FOR WHICH IT'S INSTALLED. 2 42 0.2 SURGE PROTECTIVE DEVICE AND SURGE ARRESTERS CANNOT BE RECONDITIONED. 2 42 0.9 SURGE PROTECTIVE DEVICES SHALL HAVE AN INDICATOR THAT THE DEVICE IS FUNCTIONING PROPERLY. AND THEN ONTO NEW ARTICLE 2 45 DEALING WITH OVER CURRENT PROTECTION FOR SYSTEMS OVER A THOUSAND VOLTS AC AND 1500 VOLTS DC THIS IS GARY. I HAVE A QUESTION CONCERNING, UM, THE SURGE PROTECTION DEVICE. THAT, THAT, UH, 2 42 0.2. YES SIR. UH, THERE'S, THERE ARE SOME DEVICES, UH, THAT ARE SERVICEABLE MM-HMM. THAT YOU CAN REPLACE, UH, COMPONENTS INSIDE OF 'EM. IS THAT STILL PERMISSIBLE OR WILL THAT BE CONSIDERED AS A RECONDITIONED DEVICE? , I WOULD ANTICIPATE THAT, THAT THAT'S THE WAY THEY'RE DESIGNED BY THE MANUFACTURER AND THE MANUFACTURER OFFERS THE SERVICEABLE PARTS. YES. I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT. THAT WOULD BE OKAY. BUT WE'RE TA I THINK WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE, AND CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, MM-HMM. . BUT IT'S COMPONENTS THAT DON'T FALL INTO THAT CATEGORY THAT SOMEBODY TRIES TO SEND OUT AND BE RECONDITIONED. THAT'S CORRECT. YEAH. THANK YOU, RON. THANK YOU, UHHUH. IN MY MIND, IT, YOU KNOW, AND I KNOW IT'S A, IT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT APPLICATION, BUT IT WOULDN'T BE ANY DIFFERENT THAN REPLACING A BLOWN FUSE. MM-HMM. . SO IN, UH, TWO 50 POINT 50 52 A THREE ONE AND B TWO, THEY CHANGED REINFORCING STEEL AND RODS TO REBAR FOR CLARITY. RD UM, THE NEXT ONE ON 2 52 AND 2 50 66, THAT'S MORE OF AN IN-HOUSE DISCUSSION. THE VAPOR BARRIERS ARE REALLY CREATING A PROBLEM FOR OUR CONCRETE ENC CASE ELECTRODES. UM, AND WE'RE HAVING TO ASK SOME OF THE ENGINEERS, ESPECIALLY ON SOME OF THESE APARTMENT COMPLEXES, TO REDESIGN THEIR GROUNDING. 'CAUSE WHAT WE'RE ENDED UP WITH IS TWO GROUND RODS AND A NUMBER SIX FOR LIKE A 1200 OR 1600 AMP SERVICE. SO BECAUSE THE VAPOR BARRIER'S IN THERE AND MY CEE IS GONE. SO, SO, SO THE VAPOR BARRIER UNDER THE CONCRETE IS AN INSULATOR? YES. IS WHAT, IS THAT THE ISSUE? YEAH. SO WE'RE STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, SO, SO THAT'S ON THE, SO THE FLOOR ISN'T AN ELECTRODE THEN? NO. SO YOU CAN'T USE IT? NO. OKAY. NO. SO, SO WHAT DOES INSPECTIONS, WHAT DO THEY, HOW DO THEY DEAL WITH THAT? WELL, WE'RE ASKING, UH, THE ENGINEERS TO, UM, SUBMIT AN EXACT WHAT THEY'RE GONNA HAVE PUT IN. SO IF THEY'RE GONNA STAY WITH THE TWO GROUND RODS AND THE NUMBER SIX, THEN I'D NEED THE ENGINEER TO PUT THAT ON THE PLANT. UM, I'VE REALIZED THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GIVEN SO MANY OTHER OPTIONS AND WE DON'T HAVE THOSE, WHAT A FEW OF THEM HAVE COME UP WITH, OR ACTUALLY WE HAD DISCUSSED IT WAS USING A GROUNDING TRIAD WITH ONE THIRD OF THE TRIAD AS A PLATE, AND USING THE MAXIMUM GROUNDING ELECTRO CONDUCTOR SIZE PER TABLE 2 50 66 FOR THAT SERVICE CAD WELDED TO THAT PLATE. WHICH IT'S, IT'S A LOT TO ASK, BUT WE THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT IT'S A SUGGESTION. I CAN'T REQUIRE THAT. UH, BUT IT'S CERTAINLY SOMETHING WE'VE COME UP WITH. SO, AND I, AND I WANTED TO ASK THIS TO RON AGAIN. UH, 'CAUSE HISTORICALLY, UM, HISTORICALLY IN THE ENGINEERING FIELD, SOMETIMES WE WOULD ENCOUNTER A REINFORCED CONCRETE PIER THAT WAS AWESOME ELECTRODE. YES. AND SO WE WOULD USE THOSE, UH, IN THE DESIGN. THE REQUIREMENT TO, UH, GO ONTO THE REBAR WITH THE NUMBER FOUR IN THE SLAB IS RELATIVELY NEW. AND I, I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT WAS BROUGHT IN THERE. UM, YOU KNOW, THE, THE STEP AND TOUCH POTENTIAL IT WOULD AFFECT. SO YOU ARE STANDING ON THE CONCRETE HERE AT THE SAME POTENTIAL AS EQUIPMENT. MM-HMM. , I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ANY HISTORY TO THAT OR, UH, WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS WERE IF WE JUST DON'T HAVE THAT WIRE COMING OUT OF THE SLAB ANYMORE, WHAT, WHAT YOU'D EXPECT TO SEE. WELL, I, I WOULD STILL RECOMMEND, EVEN THOUGH THE, THE, THE SLAB DOESN'T QUALIFY AS A CONCRETE TASTE ON THE TR THAT IT STILL BE BONDED. YES. SO THAT WE'VE [00:50:01] GOT THAT EQUAL POTENTIAL. MM-HMM. . UM, BUT WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT APARTMENT COMPLEXES AND THAT KIND OF STUFF, SO HOW DO WE PROVIDE THEM WITH A COST EFFECTIVE ALTERNATIVE? I CAN TELL YOU WITH MOST OF THE COMMERCIAL FACILITIES THAT AT LEAST THAT WE DO, IS YOU HAVE A COUNTERPOINT SYSTEM THAT GOES AROUND THE ENTIRE PERIMETER OF THE BUILDING. YEAH. SO IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT THEN PLUS WITH PEERS ON TOP OF THAT, WE, WE BOND INTO IT AS WELL. SO IT'S, IT'S A UNIQUE SITUATION AND HOW DO, HOW DO WE ADDRESS IT? AND I THINK RIGHT NOW, THE, THE OPTION THAT WE'RE GIVING THEM IS TO, YOU KNOW, HERE'S, HERE'S SOME SOLUTIONS. MM-HMM. , MAKE THEM AWARE OF THE CONCERNS. MM-HMM. ABOUT THE VAPOR BARRIER AND SEE WHAT THE INDUSTRY COMES BACK FOR. YEAH. I'VE, I'VE BEEN DOING QUITE A BIT OF RESEARCH ON IT BECAUSE IT, IT JUST, I LOOK AT WHERE THAT GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM IS GONNA BE IN 20 YEARS FROM NOW. IT'S, YOU KNOW, UM, TRYING ALSO TO EDUCATE THE INDUSTRY THAT DOES HAVE THE 10 FOOT PIERS, WHICH WAS ADDED IN THE LAST CODE TO UTILIZE THAT AND TRY TO GET IN THERE BEFORE THE PORE IS MADE. 'CAUSE THAT, LIKE YOU SAID, THAT'S A LAWN, THAT'S A REALLY GOOD GROUND ROD RIGHT THERE. SO. WELL, AND, AND I, I HAVE SEEN, UH, IN THE FIELD I'M IN AS AN ENGINEER, TO ME, GROUNDING IS NOT WIDELY UNDERSTOOD BY ANY PART OF THE AUDIENCE. AND A LOT OF TIMES IN THE ENGINEER DRAWINGS, IT WILL SAY SOMETHING LIKE, ROUND PER NEC TWO 50, WHICH DOESN'T HELP ANYBODY. NOBODY ACTUALLY EVEN KNOWS WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN. RIGHT. AND AN INSPECTION COMES. SO I, I SEE IT AS A, YOU KNOW, IF WE CAN MAKE SOME CLARITY TO THAT, IT WOULD BE GOOD. MM-HMM. . MM-HMM. . THANK YOU. SO, UH, TWO 50 POINT 60 4G UH, A COUPLE OF MY GUYS GOT A KICK OUT OF THIS. SO THE GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTOR SHALL NOT BE INSTALLED THROUGH A VENTILATION OPENING OF AN ENCLOSURE. I'M GONNA RUN IT OUT THROUGH THE VENTILATION. THE TRANSFORMER IN THE BOTTOM , IT, IT SOUNDS, IT SOUNDS ALMOST, UM, COUNTERINTUITIVE THAT WOULD MM-HMM. THAT WOULD BE THE CASE. BUT IF YOU GO BACK AND YOU LOOK AT THE VENTILATION OF THE BOTTOM OF A DRY TYPE TRANSFORMER, FOR EXAMPLE MM-HMM. FOR YEARS, WE BROUGHT THE CONDUIT UP TO THE BOTTOM OF THE VENTILATED OPENING. MM-HMM. , WE BROUGHT THE GROUND CONDUCTORS UP TO THE BOTTOM VENTILATED OPENINGS. AND SO NOW THAT'S BRINGING CLARITY THAT YOU'RE NOT, THAT THAT'S NOT, NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT. YEAH. YOU GOTTA DO IT BY OTHER MEANS. SO IT IS INTUITIVE AS IT MAY SEEM AT, AT TIMES. YOU GOTTA GO BACK TO WHAT, WHAT HAVE WE BEEN DOING ALL THESE YEARS? MM-HMM. . SO TWO 50 POINT 70, UH, GROUNDING OR BONDING CONDUCTORS SHALL BE CONNECTED TO GROUNDING ELECTRODES BY ONE OF THE METHODS LISTED INDOOR COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEM. A LISTED METAL STRAP TYPE GROUND CLAMP IS PERMITTED. TWO 30.94 A FOUR, UH, INTERSYSTEM BONDING TERMINAL SHALL BE SECURELY MOUNTED AS FOLLOWS AT SERVICE EQUIPMENT OR AT THE DISCONNECTING MEANS FOR A BUILDING OR STRUCTURE THAT'S SUPPLIED BY A FEEDER. GENTLEMEN, WE'RE AT ONE HOUR. DOES ANYONE WANT A BREAK? I COULD USE A BIOLOGY BREAK. OKAY. 10 ON OR FIVE. FIVE OR 10. 10 MINUTES. SO IT'S, UH, 10 O'CLOCK STRAIGHT UP. WE'LL TAKE A 10 MINUTE BREAK. COME BACK AT 10 MINUTES AFTER 10. OKAY. DID THEY HAVE THE LITTLE SHUTTERS THAT COME OUT? MY, MY MOTHER COULDN'T PLUG THAT IN, IN THE COUNTER. WE HAD, I MEAN, I BARELY GOT. ALL RIGHT. IT'S JUST, I'VE GOT 12 MINUTES AFTER. SO WE WILL RECONVENE THE ELECTRICAL SUBCOMMITTEE. UM, ALSO LET THE RECORD SHOW THAT, UH, MICHAEL RUSK IS, HAS JOINED US THIS MORNING. OKAY. UM, IN TALKING WITH CPS ENERGY, UM, UH, WE HAVE JOHN PETA AND MATTHEW WESTIN HERE WITH US. [00:55:01] UH, THIS SECTION OF TWO 30 POINT 30 B, I'M SORRY, THIS IS VALERIE GLEASON. UM, THE UNDERGROUND SERVICE CONDUCTORS AND THE CONCRETE ENCASEMENT, THEY DID WANNA DO A LITTLE MORE RESEARCH ON THEIR END. IS THAT CORRECT, PAUL? YES. WE, WE JUST HAD SOME CONCERNS ON, ON LEGACY EQUIPMENT AND THINGS WE HAD TO REPLACE THAT MAYBE WEREN'T CONCRETE ENCASED ON THE SECONDARY SERVICES. SO YEAH, THEY WANNA DO A LITTLE RESEARCH ON THAT ONE. SO, UM, I GUESS WE CAN REVISIT THAT THE NEXT TIME. OKAY. OKAY. SO, UH, TWO 50.1 18. FLEXIBLE METAL CONDUIT OR LIQUID TYPE FLEXIBLE METAL CONDUIT CONTAINS A STAINLESS STEEL CORE, A WIRE TYPE EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR OR A BONDING JUMPER IN ACCORDANCE WITH 2 51 20 E SHALL BE INSTALLED. 2 51 18 B GROUNDING ELECTRO CONDUCTORS SHALL NOT BE USED AS EQUIP AS EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTORS UNLESS THE EXCEPTION APPLIES. OKAY. HERE'S ONE THAT MIGHT BE A LITTLE CONTROVERSIAL . UM, IN 2 51 20, WE ARE PROPOSING TO ADD A SECTION THAT SAYS IN ONE IN TWO FAMILY DWELLINGS, REPLACEMENTS OF A PANEL WILL REQUIRE THAT THE FEEDER INCLUDE A SEPARATE GROUNDED AND GROUNDING CONDUCTORS, UNLESS THE TWO WIRE SYSTEM IS STILL IN PLACE THROUGHOUT THE DWELLING. IF A SERVICE, IF A RESIDENTIAL SUB-PANEL IS REPLACED AND IT'S UPGRADED RIGHT THERE, THAT NECESSITATES, UH, REPLACING THE FEEDER TO A FOUR WIRE FROM A THREE WIRE. UM, WHAT WE'RE RUNNING INTO ON A LOT OF THE, THE HOUSES WHERE THEY'VE, UH, THEY'RE REPLACING THE INTERIOR PANEL WITH A, LIKE, FOR LIKE AMPACITY. UM, THE PROBLEM IS MANY TIMES THERE ARE THREE WIRE RECEPTACLE SYSTEMS THROUGH THERE AND SOMEBODY'S GONE IN THERE AND DONE IT AT SOME TIME. SO WE'VE GOT A BIG PROBLEM WITH NOT RE REATTACHING THE GROUNDED CONDUCTOR, YOU KNOW, BUT THEN YOU'RE OUT THERE WITH A METAL PANEL CAN THAT'S FLOATING BASICALLY AND NOT BONDED TO THE SYSTEM. UH, WE WANTED TO LEAVE IT IN PLACE. IF THEY HAVE A TWO WIRE SYSTEM, WE WOULD ALLOW THEM TO KEEP THAT IN PLACE. BUT THIS IS WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS HAVING THEM EITHER ADD A FOUR WIRE FEEDER OR ADD AN EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR AROUND THE SAME PATH. THE PATHWAY COMMENTS, NOT TRYING TO MAKE THINGS MORE EXPENSIVE FOR PEOPLE, BUT WE'RE LOCATING AND ELIMINATING A DANGER. UM, I HAD SENT OUT A DOCUMENT, UH, WITH IT WHEN I WENT OUT AND HAD SOME ARGUMENTS WITH IT ABOUT SOME OF THE CODE SECTIONS, AND WE ACTUALLY DID FIND AS FAR BACK AS I BELIEVE THE 1956 NATIONAL ELECTRIC CODE THAT HAD REQUIREMENTS FOR A FOUR WIRE FEEDER AT SOME POINT. SO, ALTHOUGH I BELIEVE WE WEREN'T ACTUALLY UNDER THE NEC AT THE TIME. SO, SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT ANY PANEL REPLACEMENT ON AN OLDER HOME IS GONNA BE REQUIRE REWIRING THE ENTIRE STRUCTURE? NO, SIR. NO SIR. ONLY THE FEEDER. AND IF THEY ARE RETAINING THE TWO WIRE SYSTEM OF THE RECEPTACLES, THEY COULD RETAIN THE THREE WIRE FEEDER AS WELL. SO THIS IS ONLY, I'M SORRY, THERE. SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, UH, THEY'RE GOING IN DOING A REMODEL, REPLACING, UH, THE PANEL AND PUTTING, UM, NEW, UH, OR, OR ADDING MAYBE SOME CIRCUITS AND NOW THEY, IN, IN THAT CASE, YOU WOULD WANT THE FEEDER ALSO REPLACED. WELL, ADDING CIRCUITS BY THE, UNDER THE EXISTING BUILDING CODE IS CONSIDERED A MODIFICATION AND WOULD DRIVE THE REQUIREMENT FOR IT TO BE REPLACED ANYWAY. UM, THIS WOULD BE A, LIKE, FOR LIKE REPLACEMENT. SO YOU HAVE A 125 AMP SUBPANEL AND YOU REPLACE IT WITH 125 AMP SUBPANEL BECAUSE IT'S OLD OR THEY WANT TO, THEY JUST WANNA REPLACE IT. BUT THEY ENDED UP HAVING A THREE WIRE RECEPTACLE SYSTEM IN THE HOUSE AND WE DON'T HAVE ANY WAY TO GROUND IT. SOMEBODY'S GONE IN THERE AND ADDED IT, TIED IT INTO THE COMBINATION NEUTRAL AND GROUND BUS AND IT CAN PRESENT A DANGER. [01:00:03] YEAH. UNFORTUNATELY, MOST OF THE TIME WHAT I, WHAT I'VE SEEN FOLKS DO IS THEY'LL PULL OUT A TWO WIRE RECEPTACLE MM-HMM. PUT A THREE WIRE RECEPTACLE IN AND THEY'LL PUT A JUMPER FROM THE GROUND. MM-HMM. SOMETHING NEUTRAL. MM-HMM. . YEAH, THEY WILL. SO WE, IF THE HOUSE WE'RE NOT, THIS IS ONLY ONE AND TWO FAMILY DWELLINGS, NOT APARTMENTS. OKAY. 'CAUSE WE REALIZE, UM, HOW MUCH HARDER EVEN SO FOR APARTMENTS THIS WOULD BE AND HOW MANY AROUND TOWN THERE ARE, AND AGAIN, THIS WOULD ONLY BE IF THEY HAVE ADDED A THREE WIRE SYSTEM IN THERE AT SOME TIME OR OTHER. UH, SO VALERIE, ANOTHER ANOTHER CLARIFICATION. YES, SIR. AND THIS, THIS IS KIND OF WHAT, WHAT THE CODE CODE USED TO REQUIRE. MM-HMM. . UM, SO I DON'T THINK A, A FEEDER WAS EVER ALLOWED ON A, YOU KNOW, A, A SYSTEM LIKE THAT WITH A SUB PANEL TO HAVE NO EQUIPMENT AROUND IT. JUST LINE ONE, LINE TWO AND MM-HMM. NEUTRAL. MM-HMM. . YEAH. I MEAN LONG AGO. YEAH. BUT NOT, NOT IN THE DAYS OF A GROUNDED RECEPTACLE, WAS IT? NO. UHUH, NO, THAT WAS NEVER ALLOWED, UH, THE OLD KNOB AND TUBE DAYS OR THE OLD TWO WIRE SYSTEM DAYS, THAT'S WHAT YOU WOULD SEE. AND, AND THE CODE STILL ALLOWS YOU TO REPLACE A RECEPTACLE WITH A TWO WIRE RECEPTACLE OR TO UTILIZE A GROUND FAULT THAT SAYS NO EQUIPMENT GROUND ON IT TO REPLACE AND PROTECT THE NEXT RECEPTACLE DOWNSTREAM. UM, BUT THIS IS WHEN WE'VE RUN INTO SOME INSTANCES THAT WE JUST FEEL COULD BE DANGEROUS. SO, AND AGAIN, IT'S IF THEY'VE RETAINED THE TWO WIRE, THEY KEEP THE TWO WIRE AND THEY KEEP THE SAME FEEDER. SO, SO AS IS MY WANT IN THESE SITUATIONS. I'M GONNA ASK A REALLY KIND OF DUMB QUESTION. WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE FEEDER, ARE WE TALKING ABOUT FROM THE STREET TO THE, YOU KNOW, FROM CPS TO US? OR IS THAT FROM THE MAIN PANEL TO THE SUBPANEL, UH, MAIN PANEL TO THE SUBPANEL, RIGHT. YEAH. WE DON'T HAVE JURISDICTION OVER THE OTHER PART. SO YEAH, IT WOULD BE FROM SERVICE TO SUB, BUT AGAIN, ONLY ONE AND TWO FAMILY DWELLINGS. SO, AND THIS IS WOULD PRIMARILY BE OLDER HOUSES WHERE IT WAS ORIGINALLY BUILT WITH A TWO WIRE AND UNGROUNDED OUTLETS AND CORRECT. OKAY. THANK YOU. IT CERTAINLY SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT. KICK AROUND, YOU KNOW, HAVE THERE BEEN A LOT OF, UM, LIKE FIRES OR WHAT, WHAT, WHAT IS, WHAT IS UM, CAUSED THIS TO BE, TO BE INSERTED IN OR RECOMMENDED FOR INSERTION INTO THE, INTO THE, IT'S THE PARALLEL PATHWAY, I BELIEVE. YOU KNOW, THAT YOU CAN HAVE, UM, IF SOMEBODY IS TYING THOSE THREE WIRE RECEPTACLES INTO THAT GROUND BUS, AND YOU'VE GOT THE NEUTRAL IN THERE TOO, IT'S, IT'S A GOOD WAY TO GET SOMEBODY HURT. SHOCKED. UM, BUT IS IT DOING THAT LIKE YEAH, THE, THE, THE, THE PRIMARY CONCERN IS, IS SAFETY. MM-HMM. IS NOW YOU'RE RELYING ON THE NEUTRAL TO PROVIDE THE, UH, GROUND PATH FOR THE SYSTEM. AND YOU NEED THE INTEGRITY OF THOSE TWO SYSTEMS HAS TO BE MAINTAINED SO THAT YOU'VE GOT YOUR NEUTRAL AND YOUR GROUNDS INDEPENDENT FROM ONE ANOTHER. MM-HMM. . AND SO A LOT OF TIMES WHAT, LIKE I SAID, WHAT THEY'LL DO IS THEY'LL TRY TO EITHER RUN A SEPARATE WIRE BACK TIED INTO THE NEUTRAL BUS OR THEY'LL JUST JUMP IT ACROSS THE RECEPTACLE. MM-HMM. THE, THE DILEMMA THAT A LOT OF FOLKS RUN INTO IS SO MUCH OF WHAT WE HAVE ANYMORE REQUIRES THREE, THREE WIRE RECEPTACLES. AND SO THEY HAVE NO WAY TO PLUG, PLUG IN A DEVICE THAT THEY JUST HAVE A TWO WIRE PLUG AND THEN THEY'LL USE THOSE FUNNY LITTLE ADAPTERS. MM-HMM. OR THEY'LL JUST WALK OUT THE RECEPTACLES AND PUT SOMETHING IN ITS PLACE. WELL NOW THERE'S NO GROUND. WELL A LOT OF YOUR ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT THEN STARTS ACTING UP YOUR TVS, YOUR STEREOS, YOUR COMPUTERS SHOOTING YOUR REFRIGERATORS ANYMORE WITH ALL THE ELECTRONICS 'CAUSE THERE'S NO REFERENCE TO GROUND. RIGHT. AND SO THEN THEY END UP PUTTING GROUND RECEPTACLES AND CHEATING AND JUMPING ACROSS OVER TO THE NEUTRAL. AND IT'S WHAT'S CAUSING, SO OF THE ISSUES, AS RON SAID, IS THE WORK THAT'S DONE BASICALLY BY A HOMEOWNER OR YOU KNOW, AN OCCUPANT GOING IN THERE JUST TRYING TO FIX IT, OR SOMEBODY LESS SCRUPULOUS THAT OFFERS A SERVICE TO GO IN THERE AND, HEY, I'LL JUST CHANGE THIS OUT FOR YOU. AND IT DOES CREATE A PROBLEM. WE HAVE SEEN A NUMBER OF THEM AROUND TOWN WHEN WE GET IN THERE. UM, SO WE'RE JUST ASKING FOR CONSIDERATION ON A LIMITED COUPLE OF PANELS AND WHAT WE RUN INTO. SO WHEN YOU'RE RUNNING A NEW FEEDER OUT IN THE WORLD, LIKE WHAT'S THE TYPICAL DISTANCE AND COST TO DO THAT? I MEAN, AT MAX, IF YOU'RE RUNNING THE, THE SUB PANELS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HOUSE FROM, FROM WHERE THE SERVICE ENTRY IS. YEAH. AND SO MOST OF YOUR SUB PANELS ARE PROBABLY GONNA RANGE IN FROM 70 AMPS TO A HUNDRED AMPS IN SIZE. AND SO IT'S GONNA BE DEPENDENT ON THE DISTANCE FROM THE MAIN PANEL. MM-HMM. SUBPANEL. BUT SOME OF THESE OLDER HOMES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A SUBPANEL, THEY'VE GOT A DISCONNECT AND ONE PANEL. RIGHT. YEAH. THEY MAY HAVE THE OLD TWO FUSES OR SOMETHING IN THE LITTLE INSIDE AS WELL TOO. [01:05:01] BUT THOSE PRETTY MUCH HAVE RETAINED THEIR OLD KNOB AND TUBE OR EVEN THE TWO WIRE SYSTEM, SO. OKAY. SO, UH, ANY QUESTION OR COMMENTS? ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? THIS GARY, UH, JUST TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS FOR, UH, SUBPANELS WHERE THE EXISTING STRUCTURE HAS THE, UH, A THREE WIRE SERVICE, TWO HOTS AND A NEUTRAL CONDUCTOR THAT IF THE HOMEOWNER ARBITRARILY WANTS TO GET THAT SUBPANEL REPLACED FOR WHATEVER REASON, IT'S NOT GONNA BE REQUIRED TO HAVE THAT SERVICE, UH, BETWEEN THE BE LOOP AND THAT SUBPANEL BE REPLACED WITH A NEW FOUR WIRE CABLE. CORRECT? WELL, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ASKING THAT, THAT, THAT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR BE ADDED. IF, UM, THERE IS A THREE WIRE SYSTEM SET UP IN THE HOUSE, UH, IF IT HAS RETAINED ITS TWO WIRE RECEPTACLE SYSTEM, WE'RE NOT GONNA ASK THEM TO UPGRADE IT, WHICH, UM, REALIZE THAT COULD PRESENT A PROBLEM LATER ON. BUT WE CAN'T LEGISLATE THAT, YOU KNOW, TO SOMEBODY CHANGING SOMETHING AT A LATER DATE. UM, BUT WHAT WE ARE TRYING IS TO ALLEVIATE SOME OF THE PROBLEM RIGHT NOW. SO, UM, WE HAVE HAD A COUPLE WHERE WE ACTUALLY ALLOWED THEM TO RUN THE EQUIPMENT GROUND AND CONDUCTOR ALONG THE SAME PATHWAY, BUT STRICTLY AS AN SE CABLE. UM, NOT, NOT THE BEST, YOU KNOW, SOLUTION, BUT IT WAS A SOLUTION. SO, BUT THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ASKING FOR, IS JUST BE FOR ONE THAT HAS THREE WIRE, HASN'T CHANGED THE RECEPTACLES OUT AGAIN, IF IT'S AN UPGRADE RIGHT THERE, THE EXISTING BUILDING CODE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE PICTURE. SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO UPGRADE TO A FOUR WIRE FEEDER. Y YEAH, THAT'S, THAT WAS MY NEXT QUESTION. SO IT HAS TO BE A FOUR WIRE FEEDER AND NOT JUST ADD ANOTHER, A GR A GROUNDING CONDUCTOR TO THIS, SIR. THAT'S CORRECT. YEAH. THAT'S OBVIOUSLY PREFERABLE WAY TO DO IT. SO, YEAH. ANYTHING ELSE? OKAY, THANK YOU. SO, TWO 50.1 30, UH, REPLACEMENT OF SNAP SWITCHES WITHOUT A GROUNDING TERMINAL WITH A TIGHT PROVIDED WITH A GROUNDING TERMINAL SHALL COMPLY WITH 2 51 30 C UH, TWO 50.1 40 FRAMES OF RANGES AND CLOTHES. DRYERS SHALL BE CONNECTED TO THE EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR IN ACCORDANCE WITH 2 51 40 A OR TO THE GROUNDED CONDUCTOR IN 2 51 0 4 B TWO 50.148. ALL EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR, SPLICED OR TERMINATED WITHIN A BOX SHALL BE CONNECTED TOGETHER REGARDLESS IF THEY ARE FOR DIFFERENT CIRCUITS SIZING. THE BONDING CONNECTION TO METAL BOX SHALL BE BASED ON TABLE 2 51 22, 300 0.2, A 1500 VOLTS DC WAS ADDED TO THE VOLTAGE LIMITATIONS 300.4 E EXCEPTION NUMBER ONE, RIGID OR IMC WITH LISTED STEEL OR MALL MALLEABLE IRON FITTINGS OR BOXES ARE NOT REQUIRED TO COMPLY WITH 300.4 E UNDER METAL CORRUGATED ROOF DECK DECKING EXCEPTION NUMBER TWO, 1.5 INCH SPACING NOT REQUIRED UNDER THE ROOF DECKING WHERE THE DECKING IS COVERED WITH A MINIMUM TOIT THICK CONCRETE SLAB MEASURED FROM THE TOP OF THE CORRUGATED ROOFING, 300.4 G OR RACEWAYS WILL CONTAIN NUMBER FOUR OR LARGER INSULATED CIRCUIT CONDUCTORS PRIOR TO THE INSTALLATION OF CONDUCTORS. THEY SHALL BE PROTECTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ITEMS. UM, THERE'S JUST A, IN THAT SECTION, A NUMBER OF ITEMS THAT YOU CAN USE TO PROTECT THE WIRE BEFORE YOU START TO PULL IT. TABLE 300.5, UM, EMT WAS ADDED TO COLUMN THREE OF THE TABLE AS A WIRING METHOD FOR DIRECT BURIAL. FOOTNOTE NUMBER SIX WAS ADDED TO NOTE COMPLIANCE WITH SECTION 3 58 POINT 10 FOR CORROSION PROTECTION. 300.6 A WHERE CORROSION PROTECTION IS NECESSARY AND WHERE THE CONDUIT IS THREADED ANYWHERE OTHER THAN AT THE FACTORY WHERE THE PRODUCT IS LISTED. THE THREAD SHALL BE COATED WITH AN APPROVED ELECTRICALLY CONDUCTIVE, CORROSION RESISTANT COMPOUND. 300 POINT 11 C TWO. THEY ADDED CLASS THREE CONDUCTORS TO THE SECTION GOVERNING RACEWAYS IS A MEANS OF SUPPORT. AND 300 POINT 14, THEY ADDED [01:10:01] THE SIX INCHES OF FREE CONDUCTORS SHALL BE PERMITTED TO BE SPLICED OR UNSLICED THE SIX INCHES OF FREE CONDUCTORS OUTSIDE OF A BOX. OKAY, 300 POINT 25 EXCEPTION WHERE EGRESS LIGHTING IS REQUIRED OUTSIDE EXTERIOR DOORWAYS FROM THE EXIT ENCLOSURE, ILLUMINATI SHALL BE PERMITTED TO BE SUPPLIED FROM THE INSIDE OF THE EXIT ENCLOSURE. 300 POINT 26 REMOTE CONTROL AND SIGNALING CIRCUITS. CLASS ONE SHALL COMPLY WITH 7 24 0.3. CLASS TWO AND THREE SHALL COMPLY WITH 7 25 0.3. NON-POWER LIMITED SHALL BE INSTALLED IN ACCORDANCE WITH 300.2 THROUGH 300.25. ARTICLE 3 0 5, IT'S ANOTHER NEW ARTICLE DEALING WITH WIRING METHODS AND MATERIALS FOR SYSTEMS OVER A THOUSAND VOLTS AC OR 1500 VOLTS DC TABLE 3 10 16, 3 10 POINT 17 AND THREE 10 POINT 20 TYPE XHW NINE WAS REMOVED FROM THE 90 DEGREE COLUMN OF THESE TABLES. WHICH ONE? THREE SIR. I'M SORRY. 3 10 16. 3 10 17. I'M SORRY. OH, I WAS JUST COMMENTING THAT WE FINALLY GOT BACK TO THE OLD TABLE DESIGNATIONS . SO, UH, THREE, 12 POINT 10 AND THREE 14.5 SCREWS AND OTHER FASTENERS INSTALLED IN THE FIELD THAT ENTER WIRING SPACE SHALL PREVI BE FRIED BY OR SPECIFIED BY THE MANUFACTURER, OR SHALL COMPLY WITH ITEMS ONE, TWO, OR THREE REQUIRING BLUNT ENDS OR NO EXTENSIONS FURTHER THAN A QUARTER INCH INTO THE BOX, UNLESS PROTECTED BY AN APPROVED MEANS THREE 14 POINT 16 B SIX, WHERE A TERMINAL BLOCK IS PRESENT IN A BOX, A SINGLE VOLUME ALLOWANCE IN ACCORDANCE WITH TABLE THREE 14 POINT 16 B ONE SHALL BE MADE FOR EACH TERMINAL BLOCK ASSEMBLY BASED ON THE LARGEST CONDUCTOR TERMINATED TO THE ASSEMBLY. ONE ALLOWANCE SEEMS A LITTLE SMALL THREE 14 POINT 24 C WHERE DEVICES OR EQUIPMENT ARE MOUNTED IN BOXES HAVING SIDE WIRING ENTRIES, THE CONDUCTOR'S ENTERING FROM THE SIDE SHALL BE PROTECTED BY ONE OR TWO. THE REAR WOOD PROJECTION OF THE DEVICE OR EQUIPMENT SHALL NOT EXTEND BEYOND THE CENTER LINE OF THE KNOCKOUT OR OTHER ENTRY OR THE CLEARANCE FROM THE BOX TO THE INSTALLED DEVICE OR EQUIPMENT SHALL NOT BE LESS THAN A HALF INCH THREE 15. I'M SORRY, CAN I JUST, SIR, WE'RE GOING THROUGH THESE REALLY FAST, RIGHT? DO THESE MEAN ANYTHING? I MEAN, A LOT OF THIS CODE STUFF IS, IS A TRAILING INDICATOR OF BEST PRACTICE IN THE FIELD, RIGHT? SO I MEAN, IS IS, IS THIS ADDING COST? I MEAN, OR, OR ACTUALLY HAVING IMPACT ON ANYTHING? WHAT, WHAT IS, WHAT ARE THESE CHANGES? SO, SO A NUMBER OF THESE ARE, ARE, ARE CLARIFICATIONS YOU, AND YOU GOTTA REMEMBER THAT THERE'S PROBABLY, GOSH, I'VE BET 1500 CHANGES IN THE NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE FROM ONE CODE CYCLE TO THE NEXT MM-HMM. JUST, JUST AS A KIND OF ON AN AVERAGE. UM, AND SO, UM, WHAT THE CITY HAS DONE AND, AND WHEN VALERIE PUT OUT SENT, SENT US THE LIST IS THEY'VE IDENTIFIED THE ONES THAT THEY FEEL THAT HAVE ANY POTENTIAL COST IMPACT. THE ONES THAT HAVE ANY, UM, RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE CITY FOR US TO TAKE A DEEPER DIVE INTO. BUT THE MANU MAJORITY OF THESE ARE JUST IDENTIFYING THE CHANGES SO WE CAN RECOGNIZE THAT YES, WE HAVE READ THEM AND THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, THEN IN THE COLUMNS OF CHANGES WE WANT TO MAKE WHERE THEY MARKED NONE, THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE THAT WITH THE CHANGES THAT HAVE COME OUT OF THE NEC ARE, ARE ACCEPTABLE CHANGES AND SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T NEED TO, TO ADD ON. RIGHT? SO, UM, BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, LIKE WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THESE BOXES, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I, AGAIN, MY ROLE ON THE BOARD IS TO ASK, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THAT GONNA COST AND, AND KIND OF THE END USER KIND OF THING. SO IF I'M GOING TO, YOU KNOW, CHADWELL SUPPLIER OR WHATEVER TO GET MATERIAL FOR MY NEXT PROJECT, IS THIS CHANGE MAKING EVERYTHING COST MORE OR IS IT PRETTY MUCH NOT GONNA CHANGE WHAT THE BOXES THAT I'M BUYING AT ALL? PROBABLY IT'S, IT'S NOT GONNA HAVE A BIG, BIG CHANGE ON IT. THE OTHER, THE OTHER THING TO KEEP IN MIND IS, AS, SINCE IT'S A NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE, IS THE MANUFACTURERS HAVE REPRESENTATIVES THAT SIT ON THE CODE PANELS. AND SO THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO WEIGH IN AND DISCUSS THESE POTENTIAL CHANGES AS WELL. [01:15:01] THE, THAT'S THE DIRECTION THE INDUSTRY IS HEADED. AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE USING A TWO WIRE RECEPTACLE VERSUS A THREE WIRE RECEPTACLE. OKAY? CAN YOU STILL BUY TWO WIRE RECEPTACLES? YOU CAN, BUT IT'S ONLY TO REPLACE A TWO WIRE WITH A TWO WIRE. I WILL TELL YOU, THEY'RE DARN HARD TO GET AND THEY ARE EXPENSIVE. WELL, AND THAT'S, AND THAT'S MY CONCERN, RIGHT, IS THAT THE MANUFACTURERS CERTAINLY HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO KEEP COST DOWN, RIGHT? BECAUSE IF THEY CAN SELL A WHOLE BUNCH OF NEW BOXES THAT THEY'RE DOING GREAT, UM, IF AN ELECTRICIAN GETS PAID TO PUT IN A NEW BOX AND THE BOXES, YOU KNOW, COST MORE, THE, THAT COST IS JUST GONNA GET PASSED ON. YOU KNOW, AND WE'RE IN THIS, WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF THIS HOUSING AFFORDABILITY CRISIS NATIONWIDE IN THE STATE OF TEXAS AND IN THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. AND, UM, I THINK I JUST DON'T WANNA BE PROFLIGATE IN, YOU KNOW, JUST ACCEPTING ALL THESE THINGS THAT ARE GONNA ADD. 'CAUSE YOU KNOW, THE PENNIES ADD UP OVER TIME, YOU KNOW, THE DOLLARS ADD UP OVER TIME AND IT ALL MATTERS. AND SO THAT, THAT'S WHY I'M ASKING THE QUESTION. I'M NOT SAYING THAT THIS PARTICULAR ITEM THAT YOU JUST READ MATTERS. IT MIGHT NOT, BUT THAT, THAT'S WHY I'M SENSITIVE TO, TO ASKING QUESTIONS LIKE THAT BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE NOTHING, BUT IT MIGHT NOT BE NOTHING. THIS IS, THIS IS EDWARD. UM, NO, IT, IT'S MORE CLARIFICATION. LIKE NEW PRODUCTS ARE COMING OUT, LIKE THE TERMINAL BLOCKS IS THE WAY WE TERMINATE DEVICES. UM, THEY'RE TAKING UP SPACE. SO YES, YOU MIGHT HAVE TO GET A BIGGER BOX IF YOU'RE GONNA TO USE THIS TYPE OF DEVICE, UH, TO TERMINATE. UM, GUYS ARE JUST PUTTING IN BIGGER SCREWS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T FIND A INCH AND A QUARTER, UH, SCREW THAT COMES WITH THE 6 32. SO THEY'RE PUTTING A THREE INCH ONE. AND SO THINGS LIKE THAT, THAT THEY'RE FINDING IN THE FIELD, CLARIFYING THAT, OKAY, IF YOU'RE GONNA USE A THREE INCH OR FOUR INCH SCREW TO GO INTO THIS BOX, WELL YOU GOTTA PROTECT IT, YOU KNOW? SO AS COST WISE, I DON'T THINK IT'S REALLY DOING MUCH. JUST MORE CLARIFICATION. OKAY. THANK YOU. AND THAT, AND THAT MAKES SENSE. LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN IN THE FIELD, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT GONNA DO THINGS LIKE THAT. AND THE CODE IS TO PROTECT US FROM THE LESS, YOU KNOW, SCRUPULOUS, MAYBE OPERATOR. YES. THIS IS LON. I, I, I SEE A LOT OF THESE AS WORKMANSHIP KIND OF THINGS. AND, UH, THE INSPECTIONS, THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH ALL LEVELS OF QUALITY. UH, SO A GOOD ELECTRICIAN WOULDN'T DO A LOT OF THESE THINGS THAT WERE SAYING YOU CAN'T DO. HE WOULD KNOW BETTER AND SAY, HEY, THAT'S NOT GOOD. SO I I APPRECIATE THAT. I'M SORRY TO SLOW IT DOWN. AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THE SAME KIND, LIKE, I'VE DOING THIS SINCE WHAT, 20, 20 12, I GUESS. WE'VE BEEN, YOU KNOW, ON THIS BOARD AND I ASK THE SAME DAMN DUMB QUESTIONS EVERY YEAR. BUT, UM, ANYWAY, I APPRECIATE YOU CLARIFYING. YEAH, NO, I'M, I'M A FIRM BELIEVER THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A DUMB QUESTION BECAUSE IF YOU'VE GOT THE QUESTION, SOMEBODY ELSE DOES TOO. AND SO IF WE CAN, WE CAN GET IT ASKED AND ANSWERED HERE, THEN, THEN WE'RE ALL THE BETTER FOR IT. UM, BUT, UH, YOU KNOW, ONE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT, THAT I GET, UH, EXCITED ABOUT IS, IS THE OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO LOOK AT NEW TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE COME COMING OUT. NOW, YOU KNOW, AS A, AS AN OLD ELECTRICIAN, I STILL STRUGGLE WITH USING THESE THINGS, BUT WIRE NUTS OR VERSUS WAGS FOR EXAMPLE, AND WAGS ARE A WHOLE LOT CHEAPER. THEY'RE QUICKER AND EASIER TO PUT IN. SO IT'S LESS COST FOR LABOR. SO THERE ARE TECHNOLOGY ADVANCES THAT ARE OUT THERE. ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT'S COULD DRIVE COSTS DOWN IS THE, THE STATE BILL THAT THEY PASSED THAT NOW WE HAVE TO ALLOW ALL THE DIFFERENT WIRING METHODS THAT ARE LISTED IN THE CODE WHERE WE WERE MOST SELECTED PREVIOUSLY. THEY'VE GONE FROM 12, EIGHT, YOU KNOW, A WG TO 14. NOW THESE THAT ARE GONNA BRING SOME, SOME COSTS DOWN ASSOCIATED, ESPECIALLY WITH THE, THE RESIDENTIAL MARKET. AND I APPRECIATE YOUR GRACIOUSNESS ABOUT THE QUESTIONS. SISTER DORIS, WHEN I WAS IN FOURTH GRADE, TOLD ME THAT THERE WERE NO STUPID QUESTIONS, JUST STUPID PEOPLE ASKING QUESTIONS. SO , UM, YOU'RE MUCH MORE, YOU'RE MUCH MORE FRIENDLY. OKAY, . ALRIGHT, SO, UH, THREE 15.1 AND THREE 15.6. UH, EXPANDED SECTION TO INCLUDE VOLTAGES FROM 2001 TO 35,000 VOLTS AC AND 2001 TO 2,500 VOLTS DC LISTING REQUIREMENTS FOR, FOR ADDED FOR TYPE MV CABLE JOINTS, TERMINATIONS, AND CONNECTORS TO BE LISTED EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1ST, 2020 6, 3 42 POINT 20 B. THEY FINALLY LISTED IMC. MAXIMUM TRADE SIZE IS NUMBER SIX. 3 52 0.4 A AND B SKIPPED ONE DID I 3 44. OH, I'M SO SORRY. 3 44 POINT 28. UH, PVC COATED RIGID METAL CONDUIT SHALL BE THREADED IN ACCORDANCE WITH MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS TO PREVENT DAMAGE TO EXTERIOR COATING. 3 52 0.4 A REQUIRES EXPANSION FITTINGS FOR PVC TO COMP, COMPENSATE FOR THERMAL EXPANSION AND CONTRACTION IN ACCORDANCE WITH TABLE 3 52 0.4 WHERE THE LENGTH CHANGE IS EXPECTED TO EXCEED A QUARTER INCH. AND [01:20:01] EXPANSION FITTINGS FOR UNDERGROUND RUNS EMERGING FROM GROUND SHALL BE PROVIDED TO COMPENSATE FOR EARTH MOVEMENT. 3 58 POINT 20 BEMT IS ALSO RECOGNIZED. MAXIMUM TRADE SIZE OF NUMBER SIX INCH OR SIX INCH. ARTICLE 360 9 SIR. SORRY. UH, JUST I'VE NEVER SEEN A SIX HIT BENDER BEFORE . I KNOW , THEY'RE BIG . SO ARTICLE 360 9. IT'S A NEW ARTICLE, UH, COVERING THE USE INSTALLATION AND CONSTRUCTION SPEC SPECIFICATIONS FOR INSULATED BUS PIPE SYSTEMS. ARTICLE 3 71 IS A NEW ARTICLE COVERING THE USE, INSTALLATION AND CONSTRUCTION SPEC SPECIFICATIONS OF FLEXIBLE BUS SYSTEMS. 3 98 POINT 15 C-H-T-P-E IS NO LONGER LISTED AS A MEANS TO PROTECT OPEN WIRING ON INSULATORS WITHIN BUILDINGS. THE SECTION CHANGED TO REFERENCE PVC AND IT SAYS PER ARTICLE 3 58 HDPE IS NOT PERMITTED INSIDE BUILDINGS. WHAT'S HDPE? HIGH DENSITY CAN'T USE IT AT BUILDINGS 'CAUSE IF IT BURNS IT GIVES OFF TOXIC GASES. MM-HMM. , I GOT PVC DID . OKAY. ARTICLE 400 PART FOUR. NEW SECTION ADDED GOVERNING PORTABLE POWER FEEDER CABLES RATED OVER 2000 VOLTS. 4 0 4 0.1. THE ARTICLE DOES NOT COVER WIRELESS CONTROL EQUIPMENT IN WHICH CIRCUIT CONDUCTORS ARE NOT CONNECTED. ALRIGHT, I'LL ANSWER TO THE THE QUESTION. HDPE HIGH DENSITY POLYETHYLENE. POLYETHYLENE CONDUIT. YES. YEAH, , I WASN'T GONNA DIG THROUGH HERE. SO 4 0 4 0.8. UH, SWITCH ACCESSIBILITY AND GROUPING EXCEPTIONS CONVERTED TO SECTIONS ONE, TWO, AND THREE. IT'S JUST A REALIGNMENT OF THE CODE. 4 0 4 POINT 14 D SNAP SWITCH TERMINATIONS SHALL COMPLY WITH ITEMS ONE TERMINALS OF 1520 AMP SNAP SWITCHES NOT MARKED. C-O-A-L-R SHALL BE USED WITH COPPER OR COPPER CLAD ONLY TERMINALS MARKED C-O-A-L-R SHALL BE PERMITTED TO BE USED WITH COPPER. COPPER CLAD OR ALUMINUM CONDUCTORS. SNAP SWITCH USING SNAP SWITCHES USING SCREW LIST TERMINALS OF THE CONDUCTOR. PUSHIN TYPE SHALL BE INSTALLED AND NOT GREATER THAN 15 AMP BRANCH CIRCUITS CONNECTED WITH NUMBER 14. SOLID COPPER ONLY UNLIST LISTED OR MARKED OTHERWISE. 4 0 4 POINT 16 LIGHTING CONTROLS DIMMER AND CONTROL SWITCHES, SNAP SWITCHES AND MOLDED CASE SWITCHES SHALL NOT BE RECONDITIONED KNIFE SWITCHES, SWITCHES WITH BUTT CONTACTS AND BOLTED PRESSURE. CONTACT SWITCHES ARE PERMITTED TO BE RECONDITIONED IF DAMAGED BY FIRE, COMBUSTION CORROSION OR WATER 4 0 6 0.4 D FIVE EXCEPT IN THE FOLLOWING CASES. UM, THIS IS, UH, REQUIREMENTS FOR TAM RESISTANT REPLACEMENT RECEPTACLES. IT'S NOT REQUIRED WHERE NON GROUNDING CIRCUIT RECEPTACLE IS REPLACED WITH ANOTHER NON GROUNDING RECEPTACLE OR WHERE ALUMINUM BRANCH CIRCUIT CONDUCTORS ARE DIRECTLY TERMINATED ON A-C-O-L-C-O-A-L-R RECEPTACLE INSTALLED AS A REPLACEMENT 4 0 6 0.6 D LISTED RECEPTACLE FACE PLATES WITH AN INTEGRAL LIGHT USB CHARGER OR BOTH THAT RELIES SOLELY ON SPRING TENSION CONTACT SHALL BE CONNECTED TO BE ONLY BRASS OR COPPER ALLOY RECEPTACLE TERMINAL SCREWS AND SHALL BE RATED ONE WAT OR LESS EXCEPTION EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1ST, 2026. SPRING TENSION CONTACT CONNECTIONS TO STEEL RECEPTACLE TERMINAL SCREWS SHALL BE PERMITTED IF THE RECEPTACLE FACE PLATE IS SPECIFICALLY LISTED AND IDD FOR CONNECTION TO STEEL RECEPTACLE TERMINAL SCREWS. THAT'S A LOT OF VERBIAGE, LOT OF CHANGES. YEAH. 4 0 6 0.9 A AND B HINGE COVERS OF OUTLET BOX HOOD LIDS SHALL BE ABLE TO BE OPEN TO AT LEAST 90 DEGREES OR FULLY OPEN IF THE COVER IS NOT DESIGNED TO OPEN TO 90 DEGREES [01:25:01] FROM THE CLOSED OPEN POSITION AFTER INSTALLATION 4 0 6 0.9 C EXCEPTION FOUR. IN A DWELLING UNIT, A SINGLE RECEPTACLE SHALL BE PERMITTED FOR AN ELECTRONIC TOILET OR PERSONAL HYGIENE DEVICE SUCH AS AN ELECTRONIC B DAY SEAT. RECEPTACLES SHALL BE INSTALLED AND READILY ACCESSIBLE, SHALL BE READILY ACCESSIBLE AND SHALL NOT BE LOCATED IN SPACE BETWEEN THE TOILET AND THE BATHTUB OR SHOWER. 4 0 6 POINT 12 ADDITIONAL AREAS AND OCCUPANCIES WERE ALSO ADDED WHERE TAM RESISTANT RECEPTACLES WILL NOW BE REQUIRED. I DUNNO HOW YOU KEEP TALKING. PEOPLE SAID THAT SENTENCE. WHAT'S THAT? ELECTRONIC AC THEY'RE DOING VERY POPULAR. THEY ARE. YEAH. I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER THE HOTEL CHAIN. BUT ALL OF THEIR ROOMS HAVE MM-HMM. . MM-HMM . BUT SINCE IT'S SO CLOSE TO THE TUB, THAT'S WHY THEY MANDATE THAT IT HAS TO BE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE, THE TOILET ITSELF. YEAH. . ONCE I WAS SHOCKED, I ASKED THE FRONT DESK, I SAID, OH, IT'S ALL THE TIME. WRECK. OKAY. UH, OKAY. UH, 4 0 8 0.4 A AND B CHANGE CIRCUIT DIRECTORY AND SOURCE OF SUPPLY REQUIREMENTS FOR SWITCHBOARDS, SWITCHGEAR AND PANEL BOARDS FROM PARAGRAPHS TO A LIST FORMAT FOR CLARITY. 4 0 8 0.9 A AND B REPLACEMENT PANEL BOARD SHALL BE PERMITTED TO BE INSTALLED IN AN EXISTING ENCLOSURE. IF THE PANEL BOARD REPLACEMENT IS LISTED FOR SPECIFIC ENCLOSURE BY CATALOG NUMBER OR DIMENSIONAL INFORMATION, IT SHALL BE PERMITTED TO MAINTAIN ITS SHORT CIRCUIT RATING. IF THE AVAILABLE FAULT CURRENT IS GREATER THAN 10,000 AMPS, THE COMPLETED WORK SHALL BE FIELD LABELED IF LESS, THE REPLACEMENT PANEL BOARD SHALL BE IDENTIFIED FOR THE USE ANY PREVIOUSLY APPLIED LISTING MARKS SHALL BE REMOVED. 4 0 8 0.38 WHERE THE AVAILABLE FAULT CURRENT IS GREATER THAN 10,000 AMPS. THE PANEL BOARD AND ENCLOSURE COMBINATION SHALL BE EVALUATED FOR THE APPLICATION PANEL. IT'S CONSIDERED FOR PANEL BOARDS AND CABINETS AND CUTOUT BOXES. UH, THIS ON 4 0 8 0.43. UM, I GUESS THE LAST CODE THEY INDICATED A PANELS CAN'T BE LOCATED IN A FACE UP ORIENTATION. SO NOW THEY ADDED A FACE DOWN LOCATION. CAN'T BE ORIENT ORIENTATION. I KNOW, OF COURSE. YEAH. 4 0 9 0.7 SAFETY CIRCUITS FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION THAT ARE SUBJECT TO DAMAGE FROM SURGE EVENTS SHALL HAVE SURGE PROTECTION WITHIN OR IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT TO THE CONTROL PANEL. ARTICLE FOUR 10, SECTION 12, UH, ADDED SPECIAL PROVISIONS FOR THE GERMA GERMICIDAL ERADIATION LUMINAIRE. OKAY, UM, WE TALKED ABOUT THAT ARTICLE 4 22. UH, SOME SECTIONS WERE REMOVED, CONSIDERED, UH, COVERING BY THE LISTING OF THE EQUIPMENT. SO 4 22 POINT 16 A THREE ALL CORD AND PLUG CONNECTED ELECTRICALLY HEATED APPLIANCE THAT PRODUCE TEMPERATURES IN EXCESS OF 250 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT ON SURFACES WITH WHICH THE CORD IS LIKELY TO BE IN CONTACT SHALL BE PROVIDED WITH ONE OF THE TYPES OF HEATER CORDS LISTED IN 400.4 4 22 POINT 16. B2. FLEXIBLE CORDS FOR TRASH COMPACTORS THAT PASS THROUGH AN OPENING SHALL BE PROTECTED FROM DAMAGE BY A BUSHING, GROMMET OR OTHER APPROVED MEANS SIMILAR TO A DISHWASHER AND DISPOSAL. 4 22 POINT 18 B. NO PARTS OF CEILING SUSPENDED FANS IN BATHROOM OR SHOWER SPACES SHALL BE LOCATED WITHIN, WITHIN A ZONE MEASURED THREE FEET HORIZONTALLY AND EIGHT FEET VERTICALLY FROM THE TOP OF THE BATHTUB, RIM OR SHOWER STALL THRESHOLD. 4 24 0.48 HEATING CABLES ARE PERMITTED TO BE INSTALLED WITHIN WALLS WITH SPECIFIC LIMITATIONS AND PROTECTIONS. 4 24 0.93 C HEATING PANELS ARE PERMITTED TO BE INSTALLED WITHIN WALLS WITH SPECIFIC LIMITATIONS AND PROTECTIONS. FOUR 30.2 RECONDITIONED MOTORS SHALL BE PERMITTED IF THE RECONDITIONING HAS BEEN CONDUCTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS OR BY NATIONALLY RECOGNIZED STANDARDS. FOUR 30 [01:30:01] POINT 52 C ONE AND THREE MODIFICATIONS TO RATINGS OR SETTINGS FOR INDIVIDUAL MOTOR CIRCUITS AND ASSOCIATED TABLES. FOUR 40 POINT 11 DISCONNECTING MEANS IS READILY ACCESSIBLE TO UNQUALIFIED PERSONS. ANY ENCLOSURE, DOOR OR HINGE COVER OF A DISCONNECTING MEANS ENCLOSURE THAT EXPOSES ENERGIZED PARTS WHEN OPEN SHALL REQUIRE A TOOL TO OPEN OR BE CAPABLE OF BEING LOCKED ON. THIS, THIS IS MY QUESTION ON THAT ONE. HAS THE FIRE DEPARTMENT WEIGHED IN ON THAT? THEY CAN CUT THOSE LOCKS. WHY? YEAH. NO. UM, I'VE ASKED 'EM ABOUT THAT BEFORE AND THAT WAS THE ANSWER I WAS GIVEN. UH, 'CAUSE WE WORK WITH THEM RATHER CLOSELY. INSPECTION SIDE, THEY SAID WE CAN CUT 'EM. SO, UH, WE GET A LOT OF ISSUES WITH, UH, NUISANCE AROUND TOWN TOO, WHERE PEOPLE WILL GO IN AND OR STEAL COPPER WHATEVER TOO. THEY WANNA BE ABLE TO LOCK THEIR DISCONNECTING MEANS FOR THAT REASON TOO. YEAH, I MEAN THAT'S, I THINK THAT'S GREAT. YEAH. I MEAN WE'VE ALWAYS REFRAINED FROM DOING IT 'CAUSE WE WERE, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT THE FIRE DEPARTMENT TO COME OUT AND BE MAD AT YOU. SO UHHUH . SO IF THIS IS A CHANGE, I THINK THIS IS A GREAT, A GREAT CHANGE THAT ALLOWS US TO, TO LOCK THOSE PERFECT UP IN OUR AUSTIN OFFICE. CAR WENT OFF THE BUILDING, EVERYBODY JUST ASSUMED IT WAS UTILITY OUTAGE, LOOKED AROUND, ALL THE OTHER BUILDINGS WERE STILL ON WHAT'S GOING ON. SOME BAKER COMES IN, TURN IT OFF. MM-HMM. . YEAH. CAMERA LOOK AT IT. JUST REACHED UP THERE. WALK AWAY . SO, UH, FOUR 40.8, UH, AC AND REFRIGERATION EQUIPMENT. IT SHALL NOT BE INSTALLED OVER A TUB OR SHOWER STALL. UM, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME UP ARE THESE SETUPS IN A, IN APARTMENT BUILDINGS, YOU NEED A BREAK. UM, THE UNITS THAT GO IN OVER THE SHOWERS WHERE THEY HAVE THE PANEL DOOR, UH, WILL BE CONSIDERED THAT THOSE WERE STILL ACCEPTABLE. BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT, WHAT CONSIDERATION FROM THE BOARD OR IF WE HAVE TO DO AWAY WITH THEM COMPLETELY. 'CAUSE MOST OF THESE THAT WE FOUND WERE A COMPLETE ASSEMBLY WITH THE DOOR ON THEM. SO I DON'T KNOW IF APARTMENTS, I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT APARTMENTS ARE STILL BEING BUILT. I THINK PAUL SHOWED ME, ONE OF MY, THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING INSPECTOR SAID THAT THEY WERE STILL BEING INSTALLED IN THAT MANNER WHERE THAT UNIT IS UP OVER THE SHOWER OR THE BATHTUB. YEAH. I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU'D SEE A LOT OF NEW, NEW PRODUCT. LIKE MY CONCERN IS MM-HMM. , YOU KNOW, I HAVE 60 SEVENTIES PRODUCT AND IF I HAVE A FIRE OR SOMETHING NEED TO, YOU KNOW, GO TO THE NEW CODE TO, TO REBUILD THE STRUCTURE'S, NOT THERE TO PUT IT ANYWHERE ELSE. MM-HMM. . SO THAT'S WHERE I'D BE CONCERNED ABOUT HAVING THIS IN THERE. IT'S NOT BEING DONE ANYWAY. UM, ON NEW CONSTRUCTION, YOU KNOW, MIGHT BE WRITTEN. WELL THE THING THAT CAME CAME TO MY MIND IS HOW DIFFICULT WOULD IT BE TO BE SHIFTED FROM OVER THE SHOWER TO THREE FEET AWAY THE SHOWER? MM-HMM. THE BATHROOM TO SHIFT OPEN. THE THING I'M LOOKING AT IT FROM, I MEAN, 'CAUSE WE DO HAVE A COUPLE OF COMPLEXES THAT ARE GOING UP WITH THEM NOW, UM, THAT THE FUR DOWN, THOSE ARE BUILT WITH A FUR DOWN AND THEN THE CEILING GOES BACK UP FOR THE REST OF THE, THE BATHROOM AREA. SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF AREA, UNLESS THEY RELOCATE IT TO SOMEPLACE ELSE, BUT I THINK THAT THEY ACTUALLY USE THE TUB FOR THE OVERFLOW, FOR THE DRIP PAN STRIP THERE. MM-HMM. , WHATEVER. THAT'S, THAT'S NOT, SORRY. UH, THAT'S NOT A, A BIG DEAL, BUT MM-HMM. . SO WHAT, I MEAN, WHAT'S THE WHAT CHANGE THAT WE WANT TO WRITE THIS OUTTA THE CODE ALL OF A SUDDEN. AND I KNOW YOU DIDN'T COME UP WITH IT. I'M JUST, I'M CURIOUS IF WE'VE SEEN SOMETHING THAT WOULD LEAD US TO NOT MAKE, AMEND THIS OUT OUT OF THE, OUT OF OUR ADOPTION. LON YOU HAVE THE IEEI CORRECT THE ANALYSIS OF CHANGES. YEAH. I DIDN'T, MINE'S ELECTRONIC AND MY COMPUTER'S UPSTAIRS. SO MIKE, ARE YOU ASKING IF WE'RE PROPOSING TO AMEND THIS OUT OR? YEAH, WELL, I'M JUST, WE ASSUME THAT THE, UM, THE CONDITIONS THAT THEY'RE BEING INSTALLED WITH, UH, ARE APPROPRIATE THAT IT'S NOT, UM, CONSIDERED IN THE CEILING OR IT'S NOT CONSIDERED. UM, THAT'S CORRECT. UM, I REALLY WANTED TO BRING IT TO THE BOARD IF THEY WERE CONSIDERING THAT IT, THEY WERE DISCUSSING THESE UNITS. UH, TO ME, THE PICTURE THAT I SAW IN THE IAEI WAS, UH, THE MINI SPLIT [01:35:01] NOT HAVING THOSE IN THAT AREA, BUT IT DIDN'T SHOW THIS OTHER TYPE THAT WAS DESIGNED TO BE IN THERE. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS THE ANY, THE COMMITTEE'S INTENT. SO, SO TO CLARIFY, UM, MY, MY OPINION, AND THAT'S ALL IT IS, IS AN OPINION, UM, A BUILDING OWNER HAS A RIGHT TO REPAIR HIS BUILDING. MM-HMM. . SO IF THE EQUIPMENT FAILS, HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO PUT IT BACK. MM-HMM. ONE FOR ONE IF HE'S GOT A FIRE, IT'S KIND OF A DIFFERENT CASE, UH, BECAUSE I'VE HAD, I'VE HAD FOLKS ASK ME QUESTIONS THAT THEY NEED A LETTER FROM AN ENGINEER BECAUSE THEY'RE TRYING TO NOT DO IT REALLY SAFELY. MM-HMM. . BUT I I JUST WANTED TO ASK, UH, FROM INSPECTIONS, A ONE FOR ONE IN REPLACEMENT, WOULD THAT BE TRIGGER THIS, THAT THEY COULDN'T PUT IT BACK THERE IF THE EQUIPMENT FAILED? UH, NO EXISTING BUILDING CODE WOULD COVER THAT. UH, WHICH WE ADOPT AND IS ADOPTED NOW. SO THERE'S CERTAIN SECTIONS FOR REPAIR REPLACEMENT THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO PUT IT BACK IN. UH, THE SECTION IN HERE, IT ISN'T, UH, CODE VERBIAGE, BUT IT SAYS WHY IT HAPPENED. IT SAYS MINI SPLIT HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS ARE BEING INSTALLED IN BATHTUB AND SHOWER SPACES DUE TO LACK OF WALL SPACE. SO IT, THIS ONE DOES SAY MINI SPLIT. SO THEY'RE INSTALLING THE, THE, YOU KNOW, THE, THE PART OF THE MINI SPLIT THAT GOES IN THE UNIT IS THE PART THAT PUSHES THE AIR. RIGHT. THE SHOWER SEEMS A VERY ODD PLACE FOR THAT. YEAH. UM, BUT YOU KNOW, WHATEVER, I, I HAVEN'T SEEN EVERY APPLICATION. SO, YOU KNOW, IT MIGHT BE IF YOU'RE IN LIKE A TINY HOME OR SOMETHING, I DON'T KNOW IT, THAT'S ALL YOU GET. UM, BUT JUST THE WAY THE WORDING IS ON THE SPREADSHEET AND I, I DON'T, I DON'T SEE IT ON HERE. I, I'M JUST, I'M CONCERNED ABOUT ILLUMINATING THE ABILITY TO DEFER DOWN FULL SPLIT UNITS AND HAVE IT ABOVE THE, ABOVE THE TUB AS HAS IT AS HAS BEEN DONE FOR, FOR DECADES WITHOUT A REAL REASONABLE REASON. WHY NOT. WHAT'S CHANGED AS I LOOK AT THE MM-HMM. IT'S CONSISTENT WITH SAME THING WE SAW ON THE PAN AGO. MM-HMM. AND ANY OTHER ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT. SO WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS THEY'RE CREATING ZONE ABOVE THE TUB. MM-HMM. . AND GENERALLY THE ONLY THING THAT'S ALLOWED IN THAT ZONE IS LIGHT FIXTURES AND MEET CERTAIN CRITERIA. SO THEY GOTTA BE A CERTAIN DISTANCE RIGHT ABOVE THE TUB AND RIGHT HAND, THOSE TYPES OF THINGS. PEERS ARE TRYING TO DO ANYTHING ELECTRICAL OUT OUT OF THAT THING. SO THE WAY THIS ACTUALLY READING IT, IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S ABOVE THE CEILING SHOULDN'T BE AFFECTED BY THIS THEN. RIGHT. THAT WAS, UH, THE QUESTION FROM OUR TEAM. UM, WE KIND OF WENT BACK AND FORTH OVER IT IN SAYING THAT THERE, BECAUSE IT DID HAVE A DOOR AND IT WAS BLOCKED, UM, THAT IT WASN'T CONSIDERED DIRECT ELECTRICAL. SOME OF US DO FEEL THAT IT IS DIRECT ELECTRICAL. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S POSSIBLE TO PUT SOME KIND OF TAMPER RESISTANT SCREWS THAT SOMEBODY WOULD FIGURE OUT ANYWAY. I JUST DON'T KNOW IF THAT BARRIER IS THE EXCEPTION TO THIS OR NOT. YEAH. THE THING THAT MAKES IT A LITTLE TRICKY, BECAUSE YOU'RE MEASURING FROM THE THRESHOLD. MM-HMM. . RIGHT. SO A TUB YOU'RE MEASURING FROM THE TOP, TOP EDGE TO THE TUB. CORRECT. RIGHT. SO IF YOU GOT A NAME THE CEILING, THEN THAT AC EQUIPMENT'S GONNA BE WITHIN THAT ZONE. THAT'S RIGHT. YEAH. IT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE CEILING. RIGHT. AND IF YOU HAVE A EIGHT FOOT CEILING AND THEN A FUR DOWN, YOU KNOW, TO GET IT TO SEVEN FEET, YOU'RE, YOU'RE, YOU'RE OUT ANYWAY. MM-HMM. IS THERE SPECIFIC, CAN WE LOOK AT 4 30, 87 AND 4 31 12? SORRY, I DON'T HAVE MY BOOK WITH ME. ANY ADDITIONAL COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS ON 4 48? [01:40:01] I'D BE IN FAVOR OF NOT ADOPTING THE, OR, YOU KNOW, AMENDING THIS OUT. SO, SO TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT, WHAT, WHAT SORT OF EQUIPMENT HAVE YOU SEEN THAT'S GOING IN THAT ZONE THAT WOULD BE AN ISSUE WITH THIS? SO WE HAVE, UM, COMMUNITIES WHERE THERE'S A FUR DOWN ABOVE THE TUB AND THEN THE, YOU KNOW, THE AIR HANDLER IS, IS ABOVE IT. AND SO THERE'S A PANEL AND THE MAINTENANCE TECH WILL REMOVE THE PANEL TO GET UP THERE TO, YOU KNOW, RE REPLACE PIECES OR MOTOR, YOU KNOW, THE MOTOR OR WHATEVER. AND I KNOW THAT THAT'S NOT AFFECTED BY THIS, BUT I WANNA RETAIN THE OPTION THAT WE COULD STILL, YOU KNOW, PUT THINGS THERE. 'CAUSE I, YOU KNOW, UNLESS THERE'S A COMPELLING REASON THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE, IN THE REAL WORLD WHY THAT'S DANGEROUS OR SHOULDN'T BE THERE. AND I DON'T, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE HAVE ONE. UH, THIS IS LON AGAIN. UM, AND, AND MY MY OPINION ON THE SAFETY IS SOMETHING COULD, UH, BE FAULTED TO THE EQUIPMENT CASE AND YOU'RE WET IN THE TUB. THERE'S, YOU'RE GROUNDED VERY WELL. SO, AND I THINK WE'RE LOOKING AT NEW CONSTRUCTION. SO, SO TO ME IT'S UH, IT'S KIND OF A SAFETY THING THAT WOULD, WE WOULD BE GOING AGAINST THAT. MM-HMM. , UM, JUST, JUST FROM, YOU KNOW, ASPECT OF LIABILITY AND BEING, UH, SAFETY BECAUSE IT IS A METAL DOOR ON THESE ASSEMBLIES. YOU'VE GOT ANY KIND OF BONDING TO THAT. IT, IT CAN BE A PROBLEM. IT'S NOT ALWAYS A METAL DOOR. WE, WE HAVE NO, YEAH, NO, I JUST, THE ONES I'M FAMILIAR WITH OR I'VE LIVED THOSE HAD METAL DOORS. SO I MEAN, WE CAN CERTAINLY RESEARCH THIS SOME MORE ON THIS IN HOUSE IF YOU'D LIKE. WELL, I, I, I, I MEAN, I GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I THINK THERE'S THIS POINT WHERE IF WE DON'T HAVE EVIDENCE OF IT EVER, AND I SHOULDN'T SAY EVER, YOU KNOW, OF BEING A CONSISTENT ACTUAL HAZARD, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN USED FOR DECADES. UM, YOU KNOW, I DON'T, LIKE I SAID, I DON'T BUY BUILD NEW STUFF, SO I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S STILL HAPPENING OR NOT. IT DOESN'T SEEM OUT OF THE ORDINARY TO ME. AND IF YOU DON'T PUT IT THERE, YOU'VE GOTTA FIND SOME OTHER PLACE TO PUT IT AND YOU'RE FIGHTING FOR EVERY SQUARE FOOT YOU CAN TO, TO MAKE THESE DEALS WORK ANYWAY. UM, SO, BUT YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT'S JUST MY OPINION. SO THAT'S WHY WE, THAT'S WHY THERE'S MORE THAN ONE OF US UP HERE. RIGHT. ALRIGHT. CAN WE, UH, ASK STAFF TO GO BACK AND YES. JUST DO A LITTLE BIT OF RESEARCH SURE. AND PROVIDE US WITH SOME FEEDBACK. OKAY. FOR NEXT TIME, UM, WE'VE REACHED 11 O'CLOCK. AND SO WHAT I WANT TO DO IS, UH, DRAW A KIND OF LINE IN THE SAND AT THIS POINT AND DO A RECAP OF WHERE WE'RE AT THUS FAR. SO THROUGH THE MORNING WE'VE COVERED ARTICLES AND I'M GONNA GIVE A LONG LIST. SO, UH, ARTICLE ONE HUNDRED ONE, TEN TWO TEN TWO FIFTEEN, TWO TWENTY TWO TWENTY FIVE, TWO THIRTY, TWO THIRTY FIVE, TWO FORTY TWO FORTY TWO, TWO FORTY FIVE, TWO FIFTY, THREE HUNDRED, THREE OH FIVE, THREE TEN, THREE TWELVE, THREE FOURTEEN, THREE FIFTEEN, THREE FORTY TWO, THREE FORTY FOUR, THREE FIFTY TWO, THREE FIFTY EIGHT, THREE SIX SIXTY NINE, THREE SEVENTY ONE, THREE NINETY EIGHT, FOUR OH FOUR, FOUR OH SIX, FOUR OH EIGHT, FOUR OH NINE, FOUR TEN, FOUR TWENTY TWO, FOUR TWENTY FOUR, FOUR THIRTY, AND FOUR 40. OUT OF THOSE ARTICLES THAT I JUST LISTED, THERE'S TWO ITEMS THAT WE'RE TABLING AND WE'LL GET FEEDBACK ON. ONE IS FOR ARTICLE TWO 30 POINT 30 B UH, CPS IS GONNA GO DO SOME REVIEW AND GIVE US SOME FEEDBACK FOR NEXT TIME. AND THEN NOW, UH, FOUR 40.8, WE'RE GONNA TABLE THAT ONE ALSO FOR STAFF TO GIVE US FEEDBACK UNTIL NEXT TIME. OTHER THAN THAT, EVERYTHING ELSE THAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS MORNING HAS BEEN ACCEPTABLE. AND SO WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO IS ENTERTAIN A MOTION TO ACCEPT EVERYTHING THAT WE'VE COVERED THUS FAR THIS MORNING, AND THEN GIVE US AN NOW OPPORTUNITY TO SECOND AND DISCUSS AND THEN VOTE. MS. MIKE RU I MOVE TO APPROVE THE ONES AS YOU, AS YOU SAID, WITH THOSE TWO EXCEPTIONS. OKAY. WE HAVE A MOTION. DO WE HAVE A SECOND? EDWARD DEL TORO. I'M SECOND. ALRIGHT, WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND. ANY DISCUSSION? UH, YES, THIS IS LON. UH, I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY IS, UH, IS THIS BASICALLY THE ALL INCLUSIVE LIST OF WHAT WE'RE GOING TO CONSIDER OR THERE'LL BE MORE OH, THERE'S MORE . THIS, THIS WAS THE FIRST EIGHT PAGES. YEAH. WELL, WELL, AND WHAT I, WHAT I WOULD ENCOURAGE IS, SO WHAT WE'RE GONNA DO IS WE'RE GONNA GO DOWN THROUGH THE STAFF LIST FIRST. MM-HMM. , RIGHT? SO IF THERE'S ANYTHING THAT ONCE WE GET TO THE CONCLUSION OF THE STAFF LIST, EITHER THE PUBLIC WANTS TO BRING TO OUR ATTENTION MM-HMM, OR ANYONE ON, ON THE BOARD WANTS, SUBCOMMITTEE WANTS TO BRING TO THE ATTENTION STAFF WANTS TO BRING TO OUR ATTENTION. MM-HMM, . THEN WE CAN ADDRESS THOSE ONCE WE GET TO THE END OF THE STAFF LIST. ANY OTHER CONVER ANY OTHER [01:45:01] DISCUSSION ON THE MOTION AND LAWN? REAL QUICK, WHAT I SENT OUT TO THE, TO THE SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS IS THE ALL INCLUSIVE LIST. SO Y'ALL DO HAVE ALL OF THAT. WE JUST DIDN'T PRINT IT OUT TODAY. WE'LL PRINT THOSE OUT AS, YOU KNOW, KIND OF LIKE, HERE'S WHAT WE ANTICIPATE BE ABLE TO GET THROUGH IN THE TWO HOUR PERIOD, TWO AND TWO AND A HALF IF WE NEED TO. UM, BUT YOU DO HAVE ALL OF THAT. SO ONCE AGAIN, AS WE KIND OF GO THROUGH THESE MEETINGS, IF YOU'RE NOT ABLE TO MAKE ONE, YOU KINDA WANNA FLAG ONE AND BE LIKE, HEY, I, I'D LIKE TO NOT, YOU KNOW, WE CAN LET US KNOW AND WE CAN, UH, TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION EACH TIME. ANY OTHER DISCUSSION? ALRIGHT, HEARING NONE. ALL THOSE IN FAVOR OF THE MOTION SAY AYE. AYE. OPPOSED? MOTION CARRIES. ALRIGHT, SO WHAT WE WILL DO THEN IS WE WILL PICK UP ON THE TWO THAT WE TABLE NEXT TIME AND CONTINUE WITH 4 45 IS THE NEXT ARTICLE THAT MORNING. THANK YOU RON. SO, UM, THAT KIND OF CONCLUDES AGENDA ITEMS FOR TODAY. OUR NEXT MEETING WILL BE NEXT WEDNESDAY AT 9:00 AM UM, RON, I KNOW YOU AND, UH, YOUR ALTERNATE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE IT, UH, EDWARD, BUT I JUST WANT TO CONFIRM WE'RE GOOD TO GO. SO, EDWARD LON, MIKE, YOU'LL ALL BE ABLE TO BE HERE ARE YOU OR MARK, UH, FOR WEDNESDAY OF NEXT WEEK. OKAY. SO WE'LL HAVE QUORUM, WE'LL BE ABLE TO CONTINUE MOVING FORWARD AND AS I MENTIONED, RON, YOU OR UM, JOHN, IF Y'ALL HAVE SOMETHING Y'ALL WANNA LOOK AT AND BE LIKE, HEY, CAN WE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE NOT, WOULD YOU MIND TABLING THIS ONE? IF YOU DO SEE SOMETHING, LET US KNOW AND WE'RE HAPPY TO, TO DO THAT UNTIL YOU'RE BACK FOR THE NEXT MEETING. ALL RIGHT. UH, JUST AS A POINT OF ORDER ON, ON ANYBODY WATCHING FROM HOME OR INTERESTED IN THIS PROCESS, UH, SAN ANTONIO.GOV DSD, UH, FOR KIND OF OVERSEEING THIS, OUR SA SPEAKUP WEBSITE, WHICH IS SA SPEAKUP.COM, UH SLASH A 54 24, THAT WILL OVERSEE THIS ENTIRE PROCESS FOR ALL THE DIFFERENT COMMITTEES, UH, THAT CAN TRACK THAT, SEE ALL THE MEETING MEETINGS. AND AS, UH, RON MENTIONED, IF ANYBODY HAS ANY PROPOSED CHANGES THAT THEY CAN'T BE HERE IN PERSON, THEY CAN EMAIL US AT BUILDING CODE UPDATES@SANANTONIO.GOV. WE CAN ENTERTAIN ANY PROPOSED AMENDMENTS FOR ANY OF THE ADOPTED CODES AND PRESENT THOSE TO THE SUBCOMMITTEES, UH, ON YOUR BEHALF. SO THAT IS EVERYTHING FROM STAFF AND CONCLUDES OUR SUBCOMMITTEE. THANK Y'ALL VERY MUCH FOR Y'ALL'S TIME. THANK YOU . * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.