* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. ALL RIGHT. IS [00:00:01] THIS THE ONE WHERE WE, GOOD MORNING EVERYBODY. IT IS NINE OH THREE. UH, WE'LL CALL THE MEETING TO ORDER OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE FOR THE INTERNATIONAL MECHANICAL CODE. JEREMY, WOULD YOU LIKE TO START WITH THE YES, SIR. THANK YOU. JARED. JEREMY MCDONALD, DEVELOPMENT SERVICES, CITY OF SAN ANTONIO. UH, WE'LL START OFF WITH OUR INTERPRETATION AVAILABLE. THIS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. UH, JEREMY, WE'LL DO THE ROLL CALL. MICHAEL RUST. HERE. MARK ROSS. HERE. GREG MCFARLAND? HERE. SCOTT BERGER. HERE. GEORGE HAVA. WILLIAM BURRIS. COREY PALMER. ALL RIGHT. CHAIR. WE DO HAVE QUORUM. GREAT. THANKS JEREMY. I THINK WE'LL START RIGHT INTO, OH, NO, WE'VE GOT THE MINUTES. UM, SO EVERYBODY RECEIVED THE MINUTES FOR THE PRIOR MEETING. UM, IF ANYBODY HAS ANY COMMENTS, OTHERWISE I'D ACCEPT A MOTION TO ACCEPT THE, THE MEETING MINUTES. I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO ACCEPT THE MEETING MINUTES FROM THE LAST ONE. ALL RIGHT, THANKS. CAN YOU SAY YOUR NAME FOR THE POWERS THAT BE? GEORGE SALIBA. THANKS, GEORGE. GOT A, A MOTION. CAN I GET A SECOND? GREG MC FOR ALL SECOND. THANK YOU, GREG. UH, ANY FURTHER COMMENTS? UH, BEFORE WE GO, LET'S, UH, ROLL COREY IN AND WE'LL JUST ADD HIM TO THE MINUTES. SO, UH, CORY PALMER PRESENT. THANK YOU. COREY PALMER IS TARDY AND PRESENT. JUST KEEPING COREY GLAD TO HAVE YOU HERE. . WHEN I WAS LATE, THEY MADE ME CHAIR, SO YOU'RE LUCKY. . YEAH. I DIDN'T PUT THAT ON THE AGENDA, SO WE WOULD'VE CIRCUMVENTED IT REAL QUICK. ALRIGHT. UH, ALL IN FAVOR OF, UH, ACCEPTING THE MINUTES. SAY AYE. ANYBODY, ANYBODY? ANYBODY IN FAVOR OF ACCEPTING THE MINUTES? PLEASE SAY YES. VOTE. I KNOW. YEAH. YES. ALRIGHT. OKAY. ALL CLOSE. SAY NO. ALRIGHT. CAN, CAN, CAN? YEAH. GEORGE, CAN YOU JUST SAY YES FOR, JUST SO I HAVE A, A, A, A SECOND PERSON MADE MOTION ON SITTING. OH. OH, I'M SORRY. YES. . SEE, THEY'RE ALL READY TO MOVE ON TO AGENDA ITEM TWO. EVERYBODY'S JUST LIKE, I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, UM, MOVING ALL. SO THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE MEETING IS DONE. WE HAVE THE MEETING MINUTES APPROVED. UM, SO WE'LL MOVE ON NOW TO THE, IS THAT RIGHT? CAN I MOVE ON? UH, YEAH, WE CAN MOVE ON. AGENDA ITEM NUMBER TWO. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY, UH, NEED FOR US TO ADDRESS THIS ONE SO WE CAN TABLE IT. MOVING INTO DENY NUMBER THREE TO, UH, REVIEW THE BEGINNING OR CONTINUE THE REVIEW OF THE IMC. OKAY. THANKS JEREMY. NOT A PROBLEM. THANK YOU. CHAIR. WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO DO, DO IS LAST TIME WE TABLED ITEMS 13 22, 28 AND 29. UM, BUT AFTER CHATTING WITH, UH, CRYSTAL, I THINK WHAT WE WANNA DO TODAY IS WE'RE GONNA START ON ITEM 31 AND WE'RE GONNA GET THROUGH ITEMS 31 AND 32 ON THE ORIGINAL LIST. WE'RE GONNA DO ITEMS 33 THROUGH 37, WHICH ARE ON THE SECOND PAPER THAT WE GOT TODAY, WHICH IS THE IRC ITEMS. AND THEN WHEN WE'RE DONE WITH THAT, WE'LL GO BACK AND REVIEW THE TABLED ITEMS AND ITEM NUMBER 30. SO THAT'S HOW WE'LL DO IT TODAY. UM, SO CRYSTAL, IF YOU CAN START US OFF HERE ON ITEM NUMBER 31, PLEASE. THANK YOU, CHAIR. GOOD MORNING. SO ITEM 31, THOSE WERE CHANGES TO TABLE 1202 0.4 AND 1202 0.5. SO WE, UM, THEY ADDED STAINLESS STEEL PIPING AND STAINLESS STEEL TUBING AS ADDITIONAL MATERIALS THAT CAN BE UTILIZED FOR HYDRONIC PIPING. THEY DID REMOVE LEAD PIPE FOR HEALTH AND SAFETY REASONS. UM, SO JUST A COUPLE ADDITIONS TO THOSE TABLES. ITEM 32, THOSE WERE NEW SECTIONS. 1209 0.6, UH, 6.1, 6.2, AND 6.3 INCLUDING THE TABLE THERE. AND THEN 1209 0.771 AND SEVEN TWO, INCLUDING THAT TABLE FOR RADIANT TUBING PLACEMENT AND SNOW AND ICE MELT TUBING PLACEMENT. SO THESE PROPOSED CODE SECTIONS ARE BASED ON EXISTING INDUSTRY PRACTICES USED BY TRAINED AND EXPERIENCED PROFESSIONALS. THEY DON'T ALTER, ALTER THE DESIGN OR CONSTRUCTION OF RADIANT SYSTEMS. WE ARE PROPOSING THE COMMENTS FROM THE COMMITTEE. ALRIGHT, UH, WE'LL GO ON TO, SO THAT, THAT THEN IN ONE VERY QUICK SWOOP ENDS THE INITIAL REVIEW OF THE IMC ITEMS, BUT ASIDE FROM THOSE, WE GOTTA GO BACK TO, UM, SHOULD WE, UH, WE'LL JUST APPROVE 'EM ALL AT THE END. UM, SO WE'LL MOVE ON TO THE, TO THE IRC ITEMS NUMBER 33. CORRECT. [00:05:01] AND JUST FOR THE RECORD, THIS IS MOVING TO AGENDA ITEM NUMBER FOUR, UH, REVIEWING THE IRC MECHANICAL CHAPTER. SO WHEN WE MAKE A MOTION ABOUT THESE ITEMS, THAT'LL BE FOR THE IRC, AND THEN WE CAN GO BACK AND CONCLUDE A MOTION ON THE IMC AGENDA ITEM NUMBER THREE. OKAY, THAT WORKS. THANKS JEREMY. JOSEPH, ARE WE, ARE WE KOSHER HERE? YEP. OKAY. SWITCHING BOOKS HERE. SO AS I PREVIOUSLY PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED, WE ADOPT CHAPTERS 12 THROUGH 23 OF THE IRC THAT RELATE TO MECHANICAL REQUIREMENTS FOR ONE AND TWO FAMILY DWELLINGS. THESE ARE NEW SECTIONS, UM, M 14, 11.2 THROUGH M 14, 11.7. SO THESE GENERAL REQUIREMENTS LIST THE STANDARDS THAT REGULATE REFRIGERATION EQUIPMENT. THE FIELD MARKING OF NEW EQUIPMENT IS REQUIRED BY THE PRODUCT STANDARD. AND THIS EQUIPMENT HAS BEEN ADDED, OR THIS REQUIREMENT'S BEEN ADDED TO THE GO TO KEEP THE CODE CONSISTENT WITH THE LISTING REQUIREMENTS. SO THE CHANGES EMPHASIZED THE REQUIREMENTS CURRENTLY IN THE CODE REGARDING GENERAL LISTING AND INSTALLATION OF MECHANICAL EQUIPMENT. CAN YOU GO FIVE? OH NO, SCROLL UP. SO I, I'VE GOT A QUESTION FOR OUR HVAC PROFESSIONALS IN THE ROOM. THIS, THIS, UM, BY MY LAYMAN'S READING OF THIS, NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THESE NEW A TWO L REFRIGERANTS, WHICH IS THE, YOU KNOW, THE, THE SLIGHTLY FLAMMABLE ONE THAT WE'RE INTRODUCING TO ALL OUR HOMES. UM, WHAT, WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF THIS? I MEAN, THIS SEEMS TO BE CHANGING THE DUCT WORK, THE, OR DOES IT, OR IS IT JUST SAYING LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD NEVER HAVE ELECTRICAL LINES INSIDE YOUR DUCT WORK, SO CONTINUE TO NOT HAVE ELECTRICAL LINES INSIDE YOUR DUCT WORK. WHAT DO WE, WHAT'S THE ACTUAL EFFECT OF WHAT THESE WORDS MEAN? OBJECTION. I'M ASKING ANYBODY THAT, THAT, UH, EXCEPT UPON , I'M ASKING ANYBODY THAT DEALS WITH THIS. WELL, I'LL, I'LL CHIME IN. I HAVE NOT SPECIFICALLY READ THE ASHRAY 15.2, WHICH IS A NEW CODE THAT THAT DICTATES RESIDENTIAL SIDE. I CAN SPEAK MORE TO THE COMMERCIAL SIDE WHERE I'VE DONE SEVERAL DESIGNS WHERE WE'RE RUNNING INTO THIS. IT IS A, A FAIRLY LARGE CHANGE. UM, LIKE I, I'M DOING A, A 20 TON SPLIT DX SYSTEM, UH, IN NEW MEXICO, AND WE HAD TO TURN THE EQUIPMENT ROOM THAT THE AIR HANDLER SETS INTO, INTO A MACHINE ROOM. SO I HAD TO HAVE A STANDALONE REFRIGERANT DETECTION SYSTEM. I HAD TO HAVE EXHAUST FANS, UM, STUFF THAT, THAT IF ANYBODY'S DEALT WITH BIG CHILLER PLANTS, WE'RE NOW SEEING THAT COME DOWN INTO THE SMALLER SYSTEMS, UH, WHICH ALSO IS GONNA IMPACT THE DESIGN. UM, THAT PARTICULAR DESIGN I WAS TALKING ABOUT IN NEW MEXICO, IN HINDSIGHT, WE PROBABLY WOULD'VE TAKEN THAT TO A, TO A AIR COOLED CHILLER AND USED A CHILLED WATER LOOP WITH SOME GLYCOL IN IT. UH, BUT BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT PROJECT RAN, IT WAS KIND OF SCREW BALLED. UM, THE RESIDENTIAL SIDE, I DON'T KNOW. I WAS JUST LOOKING QUICKLY AT, UM, CAN, CAN YOU SCROLL UP JUST A LITTLE BIT? IT WAS TALKING ABOUT THE HOW MUCH ELECTRIC HEAT YOU COULD HAVE IN THE DUCT WORK IS A FIELD INSTALLED ACCESSORY OF YEAH, 1411 0.4. AND IT TALKS ABOUT THE ACCESSORY BEING LIMITED TO 2.5 KW. AND I'M SITTING HERE GOING, UM, I'LL, I'LL ASK SOME OF OUR CONTRACTORS AND OUR INSPECTORS. IS THE ELECTRIC HEAT THAT'S INSTALLED IN A RESIDENTIAL FURNACE, A FIELD INSTALLED ACCESSORY, WHICH WOULD FALL UNDER THAT? OR IS THIS MORE TALKING ABOUT AN INLINE DUCT HEATER THAT'S DOWN DOWN THE STREAM? BECAUSE ON THE COMMERCIAL SIDE, ALL WE'VE GOTTA DO IS IF A, IF A LEAK IS DETECTED, SO LIKE IF I'VE GOT A VAV SYSTEM WITH ELECTRIC REHEATS, I GOT A HECK OF A LOT MORE THAN 2.5 KW. ALL I'M USE DOING IS USING MY BAS LEAK IS DETECTED. I HAVE TO SHUT OFF ALL THE ELECTRIC HEAT DOWNSTREAM. AND SO THAT IS A QUESTION I'D ASK THE CITY AND SOME OF OUR OTHER GUYS UP HERE BECAUSE I COULD SIT HERE AND SEE THAT GOING, YOU KNOW, IF, IF THE STRIP HEATS THAT ACTUALLY GO INSIDE THE FURNACES, I MEAN, I KNOW THAT'S A FIELD INSTALLED ACCESSORY ACCORDING TO KIND OF THE MANUFACTURER'S LITERATURE, BUT HOW WE WANT TO INTERPRET THAT MAY BE DIFFERENT BECAUSE I MEAN, WHAT WE SEE WHAT 10 KW IN THE FURNACES DOWN HERE, MINIMUM PRESSURE BUTTON IN OUR RETAIL CENTERS, WE'RE USING FIVE AND 10 KW IN THE, IN THE DEAL. JUST A REMINDER, THIS IS FOR ONE AND TWO FAMILY DWELLINGS ONLY. YEAH. COMMERCIAL, THERE'S NO LIMITATION. YOU COULD PUT A HUNDRED KW DOWN STREET. RIGHT. BUT IN A, IN A SINGLE FAMILY HOME THAT HAS ELECTRIC HEAT, I THINK ALL THE, THE STRIPS, [00:10:01] I MEAN, OR 5K YOU HAVE A HEAT STRIP, IT HAS EMERGENCY HEAT IN THE, IN THE DEAL. IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S ADDED INTO THE SYSTEM. IS THAT A, I I THINK THE QUESTION IS, IS THAT, IS THAT A FIELD INSTALLED BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO PUT THE HEAT STRIP IN AND A LOT OF UNITS AND SO IN THE DUCT WORK, IS THAT A TYPICALLY IT'S A SLIP IN INTO THE CASING OF THE UNIT, BUT I THINK IF YOU WERE TO PULL UP A RESIDENTIAL FURNACE AND THEN LOOK AT ELECTRIC HEAT OPTIONS, IT'LL SAY IT'S A FIELD INSTALLED ACCESSORY, WHICH, BUT THIS SAYS ACCESSORIES INSTALLED IN THE DUCT WORK OF GROUP A TWO L REFRIGERATION SYSTEMS. SO, SO IF WE, IF WE WANT TO, THE CITY IS GOING TO INTERPRET THAT AS A SLIP IN DUCT HEATER AND NOT A FIELD INSTALLED IN THE ACTUAL CASING OF THE, OF THE A OF, OF AN A HU, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE FIVE TON RESIDENTIAL SYSTEM, THEN I THINK THAT PIECE IS OKAY. THE, THE BIGGER QUESTION STILL COMES BACK INTO OTHER PIECES. AND AGAIN, I HAVE NOT READ ASHRAY 15.2, I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH IT AT THIS POINT. SO I'M ONLY SPEAKING FROM THE COMMERCIAL SIDE THAT THIS IS BIG, BIG CHANGES THAT ARE COMING DOWN THE LINE. UM, HOW IT'S ENFORCED, HOW IT'S INTERPRETED IS GONNA BE A BIG DEAL. WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE ON THE HEAT STRIP IF IT'S DUCT INSTALLED OR OR UNIT INSTALLED? BOTH OF 'EM ON THE, ON THE UPSTREAM OF THE COIL? OKAY, THIS IS, UH, CHIEF INSPECTOR FREES, UM, FIRST OF ALL, THE CODE SESSION THAT WE ARE REFERENCING TO RIGHT NOW, IT'S FOR RESIDENTIAL ONLY. SO IT DOES SAY ACCESSORIES INSTALLED IN THE DUCT WORK. SO, UH, THE, THE, THE VERY FIRST, UH, LINE SAYS FIELD INSTALL ACCESSORIES SHALL BE INSTALLED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS. SO IF THE MANUFACTURER SAYS YOU CAN PUT 10 15 KW IN MY UNIT AND STILL USE IT, THEN YOU, YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO THAT AS PER THE CODE, RIGHT? SO THE ACCESSORIES INSTALLING THE DUCT WORK, IT'S BASICALLY WHAT WE'RE SAYING, LIKE, UH, DUCT HEATER, BUT THAT'S MOSTLY IN COMMERCIAL. THIS RIGHT NOW IS JUST FOR RESIDENTIAL. THE, THERE'S, I HAVE NEVER SEEN A DUCK HEATER IN A RESIDENTIAL APPLICATION. IT'S ALWAYS BEEN IN THE UNIT ITSELF. AS FAR AS THE DIFFERENCE, I REALLY DUNNO, I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT YOU KNOW, THE WAY THE CODE IS WRITTEN THAT WILL NOT, THAT WILL NOT AFFECT ANYTHING AS A MANUFACTURER SAYS, YOU CAN DO IT AND THEN YOU CAN DO IT. SO DOES THAT ANSWER THE QUESTION FOR, FOR YOU? I, I QUESTION GET INFORMATION? YEAH. AND ALSO IN REGARDS TO THE ASHRAY 1502 THAT YOU'RE REFERENCING, UH, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING ON THE IMC OR THE IRC THAT RETROACTIVELY WOULD HAVE US ADOPT THAT. SO I UNDERSTAND THAT THAT'S SOMETHING, AND IT MIGHT LEAD TO CHANGES IN THE FUTURE FOR THE IMC AND THE IRC, I KINDA KNOW HOW THEY INTERACT THAT WAY. BUT AT LEAST ON THIS CODE CYCLE, ANYTHING THAT'S UNDER THIS ASHRA, UH, 1502, I DON'T THINK THERE'S A RETROACTIVE REQUIREMENT FOR US TO ENFORCE THAT AT THIS POINT. MAYBE UNDER THE 2020 SEVENS OR THE 2030S WHENEVER THEY GET THERE, WE'LL HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT. BUT AT THIS POINT, THAT'S NOT GONNA AFFECT ANYTHING THAT THE CITY INVOICES. THANK YOU. I I GOT ANOTHER QUESTION. SO, UM, THERE'S A, A GROUP A THIS I'M IN M 1411 0.6 GROUP, A TWO L REFRIGERANT CHARGE FOR AN INDIVIDUAL SYSTEM SHOULD NOT EXCEED 34.5 POUNDS. THAT SEEMS LIKE AN ENORMOUS SYSTEM, RIGHT? WHAT'S THE NORMAL, ISN'T THAT LIKE FIVE TO SEVEN POUNDS IN A NORMAL RESIDENTIAL APPLICATION? SOMEBODY THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT? I I SEE CHIEF, I SEE YOU SHAKING YOUR HEAD YES OR NODDING YOUR HEAD YES. IS THAT, AM I RIGHT ON THAT? Y YOU YOU ARE CORRECT. UH, UM, I MEAN THE BIGGEST, WELL, I MEAN, I MEAN YOU COULD PUT IN A BIGGER THAN A FIVE TON ON A RESIDENTIAL, YOU KNOW, BUT 99.9% OF THE RESIDENTIAL HOMES HAVE, IF THEY REQUIRE MORE THAN FIVE TONS, THEY, THEY END UP PUTTING INTO SYSTEMS. SO IT'S, I MEAN, 34.5, IT'S A LOT OF, IT'S A LOT OF REFRIGERANT. DOES THE NEW REFRIGERANT WEIGH MORE? I MEAN, IS IS, WELL SEE THERE, IT'S THE EQUIPMENT IS STARTING TO COME OUT, RIGHT? SO THEY ARE VERY FEW COMPANIES THAT ARE ACTUALLY STARTING TO PUT IN THIS NEW REFRIGERANT BASED, BASED ON THE, THEY'VE ALREADY SHUT DOWN WHAT WE'RE SEEING ON THE COMMERCIAL SIDE. YOU CAN'T EVEN ORDER FOUR 10 EQUIPMENT ANYMORE. YEAH. SO IT'S ALL 4 54 V OR R 32 IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING. YES. AND YOU CAN'T EVEN ORDER, ORDER THE OLD REFRIGERANTS AT AT THIS POINT BECAUSE IT'S, IT'S, UH, THE EXCEPTION OF THAT IS VRF AND MAYBE MANY SPLITS. WE'VE GOT ONE MORE YEAR, I BELIEVE ON, AND AGAIN, THAT'S KIND OF COMMERCIAL SIDE, BUT WE, WE DO SEE SOME VRF [00:15:01] SYSTEMS IN RESIDE BIG RESIDENTIAL HOMES. AND I WAS GONNA SAY TO YOUR, TO YOUR POINT, 99.9 ARE GONNA BE FIVE TON SYSTEMS OR MULTIPLE SYSTEMS. BUT WE DO SEE SOME HOMES THAT ARE USING VRF THAT MIGHT BE SEVEN AND A HALF, YOU KNOW, BIG, BIG THESE BIG HOUSES. SO YEAH, 34.5 POUNDS IS A LETTER REFRIGERANT. THE CODE THAT THAT UH, GOVERNED, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, YOU KNOW, THE FOUR 10 TO A ONE REFRIGERANTS, DID IT HAVE THE SAME NUMBER THERE? IS THERE A REASON WHY THEY CHANGED THE NUMBER TO THAT, TO TO TO THAT? 'CAUSE IT'S LOW FLAMMABLE, THERE WAS NO LIMITS BEFORE. SO THAT REFRIGERANT, UH, 34 AND A HALF POUNDS, THAT'S PER SYSTEM. YES, CORRECT. SO IF YOU WOULD HAVE MULTIPLE SYSTEMS IN THE HOUSE, IT WOULD BE CUMULATIVE. YES, IT DOES SAY FOR AN INDIVIDUAL REFRIGERATION SYSTEM SHALL NOT EXCEED THAT. AND AGAIN, I ALWAYS HAVE THE LAYMAN'S QUESTIONS, BUT YOU KNOW, THOSE KIND OF THINGS ARE RED FLAGS FOR ME WHERE, YOU KNOW, BEFORE WE DIDN'T DO IT, NOW WE HAVE THIS NUMBER, BUT THE NUMBER IS OUTRAGEOUS. UM, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS IN REAL, IN THE REAL WORLD. IT CONCERNS ME WELL THAT, THAT MIGHT BE A NUMBER WHERE THEY JUST LOOKED AT IS IF WE TOOK OUR STANDARD 2,500 SQUARE FOOT HOME AND DUMPED THE FULL CHARGE IN THE HOUSE, WOULD YOU STAY BELOW THE LOWER FLAMMABILITY LIMIT? SO YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A BOO WE WOULDN'T HAVE AN EXPLOSION. THAT MIGHT BE MY GUESS OF HOW THEY CAME UP WITH IT. YEAH, I MEAN, I, I THINK A GREAT SOLUTION TO THAT IS NOT TO REQUIRE US TO HAVE FLAMMABLE LIQUID IN OUR AC REFRIGERANT, BUT I, AGAIN, I I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT APPARENTLY. SO THANK YOU. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR THAT ONE . YEAH. SO AGAIN, AND I SAID THIS LAST TIME, I'LL SAY IT AGAIN. MY BIG CONCERN HERE IS AFFORDABILITY. I KNOW WE HAVE LIMITED THINGS THAT WE CAN DO BECAUSE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS DICTATING THIS AND, AND OUR HANDS ARE TIED TO A LARGE EXTENT ABOUT, BUT THAT'S REALLY MORE ABOUT WHAT WE'RE ALLOWED TO BUY. I WANT THE CODE DEV FLEXIBILITY FOR US TO, I DON'T WANNA USE THE WORD CIRCUMVENT, BUT, UM, WE WANT TO BE PERMISSIVE SO THAT IF THE OTHER SYSTEMS ARE AT SOME POINT RELEASE BACK INTO THE WORLD, UH, LIKE I SAID LAST TIME, IF THERE'S SOME LEVEL OF SANITY THAT'S RETURNED TO THE, TO THE FEDERAL AGENCY THAT'S GOVERNING THIS, WE NEED TO BE, HAVE, WE NEED TO HAVE THE FLEXIBILITY TO ALLOW OUR CITIZENS TO DO IT. BECAUSE AGAIN, THE COST ON THIS, I, I WOULD REALLY LOVE TO SEE IF WE CAN DO IT. I DON'T KNOW IF IT, IF IT'S AN ASK, IF THE CITY, IF IT'S ASK SOMEBODY ON THIS COMMITTEE, BUT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE JUST A, A, A CONSOLIDATED LIST OF THE ADDITIONAL COSTS. LIKE THIS IS WHAT IT COSTS TO PUT A FOUR 10 A SYSTEM IN. THIS IS WHAT IT COSTS TO PUT A COMPARABLE A TWO L SYSTEM IN AND SEE WHAT WE'RE DOING TO, UM, TO EVERYBODY, BOTH COMMERCIALLY AND ALLY. I, I'D LOVE TO SEE THAT NUMBER. SO CAN WE GO AHEAD THEN? HOLD ON. CHIEF WAS GONNA SAY SOMETHING. SO, SO THE WAY, THE WAY THE, THE GOVERNMENT DESIGNED IS 14 A IS GONNA BE LITERALLY PHASED OUT. SO THE, THE, THE MANUFACTURERS CAN NO LONGER, UH, PRODUCE OR, UH, 14 A SYSTEMS, THEY ALL HAVE TO GO TO A TWO L. SO, UH, YOU KNOW, EVENTUALLY JUST LIKE R 22 IS GONNA BE FA FADE OUT THE PRICE RIGHT NOW FOR FOUR 10 A, IT'S, IT'S JUST AS BAD AS R 22 BACK IN THE DAYS. I MEAN, IT IS SO COST EFFECTIVE, YOU'RE BETTER OFF GOING TO A TWO L, RIGHT? THAT, I MEAN, THAT'S KIND OF ARTIFICIALLY CREATED. I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE AVERAGE, YOU KNOW, BUT THE, BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT MADE ILLEGAL TO HAVE FOUR 10, YOU KNOW, VERSUS, YOU KNOW, A TL. SO YOU CAN TAKE AN AVERAGE OLD COST, BUT ALL THE COMPONENT SYSTEMS, ALL THE EXTRA CHASES AND EVERYTHING YOU HAVE TO BUILD IN, I KNOW WE'RE TALKING RESIDENTIAL RIGHT NOW, BUT IN THE COMMERCIAL SPACE IT'S A LOT OF MONEY. I MEAN, I THINK WE OWE IT TO EVERYBODY TO SEE WHAT, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DON'T, THE GENERAL PUBLIC DOESN'T KNOW WHAT'S COMING AND I THINK WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO LET 'EM KNOW. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW. ON, ON THE STANDARD RESIDENTIAL, YOU'RE PROBABLY LOOKING, WE'RE LOOKING ABOUT AN AVERAGE OF ABOUT 18% INCREASE FOR A FOUR 10 A TO THE 4 54 B ON A COMMERCIAL, IT'S, IT'S PROBABLY GONNA, IT'S GONNA BE A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN THAT. AND THEN THE REAL COST, I THINK IS WHEN YOU HAVE TO GO REPLACE A COMPONENT IN AN OLDER SYSTEM THAT THEY DON'T MAKE THE PARTS FOR ANYMORE, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO REPLACE EVERYTHING. SO THAT IS A HUGE, I I'VE, I'VE TALKED AND HEARD FROM A FEW MANUFACTURERS, SHOCKINGLY LIKE, I THINK IT WAS TRAIN WHO I WAS TALKING TO, THEY'RE STILL MAKING R 22 COMPONENTS. UM, I ACTUALLY WAS JUST DOWN IN A, IN A BUILDING THAT STILL HAD R 22 CHILLERS THAT ARE 40 YEARS OLD AND THEY STILL COULD GET COMPONENTS FOR 'EM. NOW THEY, THEY WERE LOOKING AT LIFECYCLE ANALYSIS ON THAT, WHETHER IT WAS WORTH REBUILDING THOSE R 22 CHILLERS VERSUS GOING TO SOME NEWER HIGH EFFICIENCY UNITS. BUT THAT'S THE ECONOMICS THAT THEY WERE LOOKING AT AS IS IT, IS IT WORTH REPLACING ALL THESE CHILLERS TO GET, YOU KNOW, CUT THEIR, BUT THEY'RE ALSO LUCKY THEY'VE GOT A REALLY LOW ELECTRIC RATE THAT THEY'RE CONTRACTED UNDER. SO, CAN I ASK A QUESTION ON NUMBER FIVE? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF PUTTING THE CONTACT INFORMATION OF THE RESPONSIBLE COMPANY THAT INSTALLED THE SYSTEM IN THERE? BECAUSE THAT INFORMATION [00:20:01] IS AVAILABLE BY PERMIT. AND I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, WHEN YOU USE THE RESPONSIBLE COMPANY, THAT MEANS THEY'RE LIABLE FOR SOMETHING. AND I HATE THAT. I MEAN, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM PUTTING THE REFRIGERATOR CHARGE ON THERE AND, AND WHAT KIND OF REFRIGERANT'S IN THERE? 'CAUSE I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW, BUT WHY HAVE THE NUMBER OF A COMPANY THAT AFTER ONE YEAR IS NO LONGER THE RESPONSIBLE PARTY FOR ANYTHING? WELL, IF IT BLOWS UP THERE, IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW LONG IT'S BEEN AFTER. IF IT'S SHODDY WORKMANSHIP, THEY'RE GONNA BE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT FOR A LONG TIME. WELL, YEAH, BUT THEY PASSED CODE OR THEY PASSED INSPECTION, RIGHT. SO, AND, AND THEN THERE'S THE MANUFACTURER WARRANTY. I MEAN, I AGREE. LIKE WHAT, WHAT VALUE IS IT IF 10 YEARS FROM NOW YOU LOOK AT THE PIECE OF EQUIPMENT AND IT'S GOT AT SOME COMPANIES THAT MIGHT NOT, NOT, MIGHT NOT EVEN BE IN BUSINESS ANYMORE, MAYBE FOR THE HOMEOWNER, MAYBE THIS IS GOOD INFORMATION FOR THE HOMEOWNER TO HAVE. IF THEY, IF THEY HAVE AN ISSUE, THEY HAVE A, UM, AN INITIAL POINT OF CONTACT. I MEAN, DO WE REQUIRE THAT NOW? NO, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THIS IS REQUIRED. NOW IT'S NOT REQUIRED, BUT I BET YOU ABOUT HALF OF THE HVAC SYSTEMS ARE INSTALLED. INSTALL, YEAH. MARKETING, RIGHT? YEAH. MARKET. YEAH. THAT, THAT'S THE ONLY REASON I COULD SEE TO HAVE, HAVE THIS ADDITIONAL INFORMATION THERE. YEAH. SO, UH, THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS, WHEN THEY DO THIS ALL THE TIME, IF YOU'RE GONNA SWITCH REFRIGERANTS, YOU KNOW, AS PER THE MANUFACTURERS AND AS PART AS THE MANUFACTURER FOR THE REFRIGERANT AND THE EQUIPMENT, IF YOU'RE GONNA SWAP FROM R 22 TO A DIFFERENT TYPE, YOU MUST PUT A LABEL SAYING THIS EQUIPMENT NOW HAS THIS TYPE OF REFRIGERANT. AND IT, IT, IT LITERALLY TELLS YOU HOW MUCH YOU PUT IN. AND SOME OF THIS INFORMATION, THE TYPE OF, UH, REFRIGERANT AND THE, THE REFRIGERANT NUMBER BASICALLY. BUT THAT'S SOMETHING BY THE MANUFACTURERS INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS THAT IS REQUIRED. SO THIS IS JUST KIND OF FOLLOWING SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST NEED THIS INFORMATION AS PER THE MANUFACTURER. YEAH, I, I, YEAH, I DON'T HAVE, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY HAS A PROBLEM WITH NUMBER TWO. I THINK IT, NUMBER ONE, I DON'T, DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM AT ALL WITH NUMBER TWO. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH NUMBER ONE, THAT THAT SHOULD BE A VOLUNTARY THING. I DON'T, YOU KNOW, IF THE EQUIPMENT WAS PUT IN, IT REQUIRES A PERMIT TO PUT IT IN AND THAT INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE IF SOMETHING HAPPENS. AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU BOUGHT IT, AND THERE, THERE'S, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING IN THE STATE LAW THAT DEALS WITH THIS. I MEAN, I GUESS HAVING A BACKGROUND ON THE FIRE SIDE, WHAT YOU WOULD NORMALLY SEE A FIRE SYSTEM IS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A REQUIREMENT TO TAG A SYSTEM, HEY, I INSTALLED THIS. HERE'S MY INITIAL STA SO THAT THERE'S A RECORD OF WHO IS THE INSTALLER OF THIS. UM, YOU KNOW, THAT'S, I'M NOT SURE THAT'S WHERE THIS CAME FROM, BUT I WOULD JUST SAY THAT WITH THIS BEING THE NEW WAY THAT WE'RE MOVING WITH THESE, UH, FIRE, UH, POTENTIAL, UH, COMBUSTIBLES BEING ADDED INTO THE SYSTEM, THERE MIGHT BE SOME MORE REGULATION AND OVERSIGHT THAT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR AND THEY'RE FALLING BACK ON SIMILAR TO WHAT'S ALREADY OUT THERE IN OTHER SYSTEMS OF, OF TAGGING IT, OF, YOU KNOW, HERE'S THE INSTALLER, UH, CONTACT INFORMATION. WELL, I'M, I'M, HOW ARE WE GONNA POLICE THIS? HOW, HOW ARE YOU GONNA INSPECT THIS? WHERE, WHERE WERE YOU, WHERE ARE YOU GONNA PUT THIS INFORMATION AT? WELL, BASED ON WHAT IT SAYS, THE WAY IT READS, IT SAYS THE INFORMATION, UH, LEGIBLY AND PERMANENTLY INDICATED ON A REMARKABLE LABEL PROVIDED BY THE EQUIPMENT MANUFACTURER. SO I WOULD THINK IT'S SOMEWHERE IN THE CONDENSER. 'CAUSE THAT'S, I MEAN, THAT'S PART OF THE REFRIGERANT, THE, THE SYSTEM. SO WE LOOK FOR A LABEL. IT IS JUST LIKE THE YELLOW STICKERS THAT SHOWS THE C TWO RATING ON THE EQUIPMENT. I'M PRETTY SURE THAT IF IT'S, IF IT'S PROVIDED BY THE MANUFACTURER, IT'S GONNA BE SOMEWHERE IN THERE. SO IF IT'S, IF IT'S ALREADY LABELED BY THE MANUFACTURER, THEN WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT THAT THE INSTALLER DOES NOT HAVE TO PUT THAT INFORMATION. YES, YOU DO, YOUR HONOR. IT SAYS YOU HAVE TO BE YOUR NAME OF THE RESPONSIBLE COMPANY THAT IS INSTALLING THE REFRIGERATION SYSTEM HAS TO PUT THEIR NAME, CONTACT INFORMATION ON THE OUTSIDE. I I WOULD ASSUME IT'S ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE UNIT, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE FON SHOULD BE ADDED, NOT ON THE INSIDE. CORRECT. I, I MEAN, IT, IT DOESN'T REALLY SPECIFY THAT. SO LIKE SOMEONE MENTIONED EARLIER, I MEAN, MOST OF THESE COMPANIES IS ADVERTISEMENT. THEY PUT IT ANYWHERE ON THE FURNACE COILS OUTSIDE. SO IT BASICALLY, THE, THE, THE COMPANY THAT PUT IT IN IS, OR THEY, THEY INSTALL IS ALWAYS, THERE'S A LABEL SOMEWHERE. SO THIS IS NOT ANYTHING THAT YOU'RE GONNA INSPECT IT, IT'S IN HERE. THEY'RE INSPECTING. I MEAN, THAT'S, I MEAN, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. IF IT, IF WE'RE NOT GONNA INSPECT IT, THERE'S NO POINT FOR IT TO BE ON. DID DID YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU WANTED TO ADD? EE, EXACTLY. SO IF I PUT IT ON [00:25:01] THE INSIDE OF THE UNIT, I MEAN, I DON'T SEE AN INSPECTOR CRANKING OUT SOME TOOLS TO, UH, OPEN UP A PANEL. SO I, I, I, I'D SAY NO. WELL, I WAS GONNA THROW ANOTHER PIECE OF THIS. WHAT DO WE DO WHEN IT'S BEEN INSTALLED INTO YOUR POINT A YEAR LATER, IF SOMEBODY COMES TO SERVICE IT AND, OR, YOU KNOW, ANOTHER CONTRACTOR WORKS ON IT, ARE WE GONNA REQUIRE THE NEXT CONTRACTOR TO SLAP A STICKER ON IT BECAUSE NOW THEY'RE ABSORBING SOME LIABILITY? I MEAN, I, I THINK ILAW ONE, IT'S IN THE CODE. I DON'T WANT TO TAKE IT OUT OF THE CODE BECAUSE IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER. IT'S A SMALL THING. BUT BY THE SAME TOKEN, IT'S A SMALL THING. I, I MEAN, I, I HEAR THAT I, I'VE, THIS CYCLE ESPECIALLY I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF BECAUSE THEY WROTE IT IN THE CODE. WE SHOULD DO IT BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN TIME AND AGAIN, SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED AT THE ICC WHERE WE'RE TURNING SENTENCES INTO FIVE PARAGRAPHS. YOU KNOW, WE'RE DOING STUFF LIKE, YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF NANNY STATE, LIKE, YOU KNOW, NOW BY CODE YOU HAVE TO PUT YOUR NAME ON IT. I MEAN, IT, IT, IT'S, IT'S BORDERING ON KIND OF RIDICULOUS. AND SO I'M NOT, I'M NOT INCLINED TO GIVE THE IC THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT ON SOME OF THESE ADMINISTRATIVE TYPE THINGS AT THIS POINT. AND I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD FEEL COMPELLED TO. I CAN MAKE THE MOTION, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO RECOMMEND THAT SOMEBODY MAKE A MOTION TO REMOVE NUMBER ONE FROM OKAY. THAT SECTION, IF THERE'S, UH, WELL, I GUESS WE CAN INVITE WE, WE COULD VOTE ON THAT. SO DOES ANYBODY WANNA MAKE, UH, THAT RECOMMENDATION? WE, WE DON'T HAVE TO VOTE ON IT NOW. WE DON'T NEED TO. I, I RECOMMENDED REMOVE NUMBER ONE. IS THERE ANY DISAGREEMENT WITH THAT FROM THE SUBCOMMITTEE, GEORGE? YEAH, I'M GONNA, I'M GOING TO, IT'S IN THERE. I, I USUALLY DEFAULT TO, IT'S, THIS IS NOT A BIG COST ADD. IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL. THE MANU THE, THE INSTALLERS. HALF THE TIME WE'RE DOING IT ANYWAY. I, I AM, I DISAGREE. I'D SAY JUST LEAVE IT IN THERE SINCE THERE SEEMS TO BE A LITTLE DISAGREEMENT. LET'S, UH, LET'S GO AHEAD AND VOTE ON THIS ONE. SO IS THERE A MOTION TO DO THAT? SCOTT MADE THAT MOTION. IS THERE? HE DID MAKE A MOTION, YES. OKAY. IS THERE A SECOND FOR THAT? GEORGE LEE? I'LL GO AHEAD AND SECOND THAT WE REMOVE, UH, NUMBER ONE. OKAY. SO DO WE WANNA TALK ABOUT IT ANYMORE? I THINK MOST PEOPLE HAVE SAID THEIR, THEIR PIECE. OKAY. ALL IN FAVOR SAY YES. YES, YES. ANY OPPOSED? YEAH, NO NAY. OKAY. SOUNDS LIKE A, A VERY RESPECTFUL AND HAPPY FOUR TO ONE. SO THE RECOMMENDATION FROM THE SUBCOMMITTEE IS GONNA BE TO, UH, AMEND OUT NUMBER ONE ON, UH, 11 OR M 14, 11.5. OKAY. ON M. ALRIGHT, ANY, ANYTHING ELSE ON ITEM NUMBER 33? OKAY, MOVE ON TO 34. OKAY, THIS ITEM, WE ARE PROPOSING A NEW AMENDMENT. SO THIS IS FOR AUXILIARY AND SECONDARY DRAIN SYSTEMS. SO THIS SECTION REQUIRES THE AUX AUXILIARY PAN TO DRAIN TO A CONSPICUOUS POINT OF DISPOSAL TO ALERT OCCUPANTS. UM, AND WE'VE SEEN THAT LOCATION IN MANY DIFFERENT PLACES. AND WE WOULD LIKE TO ADD THE LANGUAGE THAT SAYS THAT THAT DISCHARGE SHALL BE AT THE FRONT OR THE BACK OF THE HOUSE. UH, AND AGAIN, THIS IS REALLY FOR THE OCCUPANTS TO UNDERSTAND WHEN THERE'S AN ISSUE CAN TAKE OFF THE, UM, SHOW MARKUP BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO SEE. AND, AND YOU'RE SAYING INSTEAD OF THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE SHOW ALL MARKUP. DO YOU KNOW? YES. SO WHAT IF THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE IS REALLY LIKE THE BACK THEN? THAT'S OKAY. SO THE INTENT IS, LET ME GIVE YOU A LITTLE HISTORY. WE HAD THIS PREVIOUSLY ON THE AMENDMENTS A WHILE BACK, AND IT WAS ABOUT, I THINK IT WAS TWO, TWO CODE CYCLES AGO. UH, IT GOT REMOVED, RIGHT? BECAUSE THE CODE, THE WORDING ON THE CODE CHANGED A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY WHERE IT SAYS CONSPICUOUS THE THING, THE, THE ISSUE THAT WE'RE HAVING OUT THERE IS THAT THE DEFINITION OF CONSPICUOUS TO SOME PEOPLE, IT'S NOT JIVING WITH WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT. THEY'RE, THEY'RE DISCHARGING THE, THE, THE, THE TO TO A WINDOW BY THE RESTROOM WHERE NO ONE EVEN SEES IT. AND, AND IT'S LIKE, OKAY, WHERE IT'S CONS SPEAK IS, IS OUTSIDE, IS BY A WINDOW. I GO, BUT THAT WINDOW'S NOT EVEN OPERABLE WINDOW, YOU KNOW, IT'S IN A RESTROOM. IT'S, IT'S NOT, YOU CANNOT SEE THROUGH AND OR WE HAVE IT AT DIFFERENT PLACES WHERE, YOU KNOW, ZERO LOT LINE OR SOMETHING. I'M LIKE, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT THERE. THAT'S NOT WELL, IT'S CAN SPEAK AS, YOU KNOW, SO, SO WE JUST TRYING TO REINSERT THIS BACK INTO [00:30:01] THE, INTO THE AMENDMENTS TO WHERE WE SAY FRONT OR BACK, UH, OF, OF THE HOUSE. SO WE UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S HOUSES THAT HAVE, UH, YOU KNOW, SIDE ENTRY, YOU KNOW, OR YOU KNOW, THE GARAGE IS NEXT, YOU KNOW, IT'S ON THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO WE'RE JUST TRYING TO MAKE IT, YOU KNOW, MAKE IT MORE CONCISE TO EVERYBODY KNOWS FRONT OR BACK. AND AGAIN, WELL FRONT OR BACK'S NOT GONNA HELP YOU INVITE I DON'T HAVE A DOOR ON THE BACK OF MY HOUSE, YOU KNOW? YEAH. LIKE IF MY MOTHER HAS A GARDEN HOME OR HAD A GARDEN HOME AND THERE'S NO EXIT TO THE BACK OF THE HOUSE. YEAH. IF, IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE IT OFF THE SIDE. SO CAN I RECOMMEND, I I I AM SUPPORTIVE OF WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO. MAYBE WE SAY, UH, IN AN AREA, A SIDE OF THE HOUSE THAT HAS AN EXIT DOOR FROM THE HOUSE. YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I WAS GONNA SAY. IF YOU'RE GONNA CHANGE IT, LET'S PUT IT THAT IT'S GOT A DUMP AT A DOORWAY AND, AND NO WINDOWS KNOWS IT'S GOT A DOOR OR WITHIN 25 FEET OF A DOORWAY, SOME OR, OR SOLID. SO IN, SO INSTEAD OF BECKER FRONT, COULD WE SAY NEAR A PRIMARY OR SECONDARY EXIT? YES, I THINK THAT'S FINE. AND I, I MEAN, AND I WOULD GIVE A, I WOULD SUGGEST NEAR IS WE, WE JUST SAID MAYBE, YEAH, IF YOU WANNA DEFINE NEAR THOSE FIVE FEET OF A, OF A PRIMARY OR SECONDARY EXIT, I THINK IT SHOULD BE 25 FEET, A LITTLE SMALLER DISTANCE, FIVE, FIVE FEET, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING LIKE THAT WITHIN, OKAY. SO FIVE FEET WITHIN A PRIMARY OR SECONDARY EXIT WOULD MEET THE INTENT THAT WE'RE, THEY'RE STILL ALLOWING IF THEY'VE GOT AN AUXILIARY, UH, SWITCH ON THE SECONDARY PAN, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PUT THE DRAIN IN. OKAY. THAT'S CORRECT. THIS IS JUST, THIS IS ONE OF THE FOUR METHODS THAT IS REQUIRED BY CODE. THE, THE THING ABOUT IT IS, IS THAT THEY'RE PUTTING IT ALL OVER THE PLACE. THEY'RE PUTTING IT ON, YOU KNOW, IN THE BALCONY. THEY'RE PUTTING IT, YOU KNOW, ON THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE WHERE, YOU KNOW, NO ONE'S GONNA WALK OVER THERE. IT'S LIKE YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO TELL THAT SOMETHING'S WRONG WITH THE UNIT. YOU JUST BROUGHT UP A GOOD POINT THAT YOU SAID BALCONY. SO WE, THAT IS A, WOULD BE CONSIDERED A DOOR IF THEY HAVE A SLIDING GLASS DOOR. BUT IF WE SAY EXIT DOOR, THAT'S WHAT WE NEED. BECAUSE THEN THAT WAY IF WE'VE, IF WE'VE GOT SOMEBODY WHO'S GOT A, YOU KNOW, THEY COULD FIND THAT. SO I WOULD SAY I AGREE WITHIN FIVE FEET OF AN EXIT DOOR OF THE, OF, OF THE HOME. MARK, DID YOU GUYS HAVE SOMETHING YOU WERE JUST SLIDING? WOULD A SLIDING DOOR YOU'RE SAYING IS NOT AN EXIT DOOR BALCONY IF IT WAS ON A BALCONY, IF IT WAS LIKE A SECONDARY BALCONY, WHAT YOU LONG, AS LONG AS IT'S NEAR A DOOR WHERE YOU'RE GOING IN AND WHERE YOU CAN GO IN AND OUT OF THE HOUSE. LIKE ON MINE I HAVE A SLIDING GLASS DOOR. IT SITS RIGHT ABOVE THE SLIDING GLASS DOOR. AND THAT'S, ALTHOUGH THAT IS NOT AN OFFICIAL FIRE EXIT, IT'S AN EXIT OUT OF THE HOUSE. SO I JUST WELL, THAT, THAT WOULD BE ON THE FIRST FLOOR. SO MORE OF A PATIO. I, I I READ BALCONY TO BE SOMETHING ON THE SECOND FLOOR. YEAH. SOMEWHERE HIGHER UP THAT MAY NOT BE U UTILIZED VERY OFTEN, UH, DEPENDING ON WEATHER AND, AND USE. YEAH. BUT I DON'T THINK IT RIGHT NOW, THE, THE WAY YOU HAD IT WRITTEN BEFORE, IF THE BALCONY WAS ON THE BACK OF THE HOUSE, YOU COULD PUT IT THERE. AND I JUST THINK IT JUST NEEDS TO BE A YEAH, I MEAN THAT WOULD BE, IF THAT'S YOUR PRIMARY, SAY YOU HAD A LARGE DECK, BUT THAT'S STILL YOUR PRIMARY EXIT OUT OF THE BACK OR SIDE OF THE HOUSE AND YOU OR YOUR SECONDARY EXIT YOU PRIME, YOU'RE GONNA USE IT A LOT, THEN THAT'S FINE. AS THAT'S THE INTENT. THAT'S WHY I THINK EXIT'S GOOD IN THE SENSE OF ANYBODY CAN REALLY GO TO A BUILDING AND OR HOME AND BE LIKE, YES, THAT'S THE MAIN ENTRANCE. YES, THAT'S THE OTHER ENTRANCE THAT PEOPLE ARE GONNA BE USING AT LEAST MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY. SO IF YOU USE ENTERING OR EXITING PATHWAYS, HOW DOES THAT AFFECT WHERE, WHERE SOME OF THESE WE'VE SEEN THAT WE'RE OVER TUBS? THAT'S A GOOD POINT. YEAH. THAT'S NOT, THAT'S, THAT'S EXISTING WAY BACK. THAT'S NOTHING THAT'S HASN'T BEEN IN THE CODE FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. SO THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE ON THE TUBS. THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE GOING TO, TO A LABORATORY OR SINK RIGHT ABOVE IT. BUT THAT'S NOT, THAT'S NOT CURRENT CODE. THAT'S BEEN AN OLD CODE THAT WAS ALLOWED BACK THEN. SO IT SAYS IT HAS TO GO TO THE EXTERIOR TO A CONSPICUOUS PLACE. SO, UH, THAT WHAT YOU'RE, UH, THAT TUB AND THE, THE THE SINK TYPE DEAL LABORATORY, THEY, I MEAN IT HASN'T BEEN USED IN MANY, MANY YEARS. I MEAN, EVERYBODY'S GOING TO THE OUTSIDE. BUT YES, IT DOES SAY THE CHIEF, IF UNDER THE CURRENT CODE THE WAY IT WAS DRAFTED, COULD IT HAVE GONE INTO THE BATHTUB? [00:35:04] CRYSTAL, CAN WE PULL UP THE 2021 IRC JOE DIDN'T HAVE THAT. SURE. YEAH. UM, THIS SECTION DIDN'T CHANGE WHATSOEVER. SO THE LANGUAGE THAT WE HAVE IS OKAY, PERFECT. YEAH. SO WE CAN LOOK AT IT AND WHAT WE THERE, THAT, THAT'S THE EXACT VERBIAGE BECAUSE I KNOW IN MULTIFAMILY, THEY, A LOT OF TIMES WE'LL DO THAT OVER THE TUB BECAUSE IT'S, THEY CAN'T GET TO THE OUTSIDE OR IF THE OUTSIDE IT'S TOO FAR. BUT, BUT THIS IS FOR LIKE SINGLE AND DUPLEXES. AND SO IF IT ALLOWS IT TO BE DISCHARGED, THE SECONDARY DRAIN IN A TUB OR OVER A SINK OR SOMETHING, AND THAT WOULD BE A CONSPICUOUS PLACE, I THINK WE SHOULD LEAVE IT. DOES THE CURRENT, THE, AND I DON'T HAVE, I, CAN I ASK A QUESTION, CHIEF, ARE YOU SEEING IN THE FIELD WHERE THE WAY IT'S WORDED, IT'S KIND OF VAGUE, RIGHT? CONSPICUOUS, HAVE YOU HAD ONE THAT'S ON THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE AND YOU SAY TO THE, TO THE WHOEVER HAS PULLED THE PERMIT THAT YOU'RE INSPECTING AND SAID THAT THAT'S NOT REALLY CONSPICUOUS AND GOTTEN PUSHBACK. IS THAT HAPPEN OFTEN? YES. AND THAT'S, AND, AND THE REASON IS IT'S BECAUSE EITHER THE HOMEOWNER DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE THIS LITTLE PIECE OF PIPE STUCK IN THE FRONT PORCH OR THEY DON'T WANT IT IN THE BACK, OR, YOU KNOW, SO THEY WANT IT ON THE SIDE. THIS IS ONLY HAPPENS WHEN IT'S REQUIRED. IT'S, THIS IS NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR EVERY SINGLE SYSTEM. IT'S JUST, AND THIS IS ONE OF FOUR OPTIONS THAT THEY CAN UTILIZE. SO THIS ONE PARTICULAR OPTION IS JUST AS CONSPICUOUS PLACE, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT DRAINING INTO A TUB OR TO A LABORATORY. WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT. NO. COMMON PRACTICE DOES. THEY DON'T DO THAT. THAT HAS BEEN DONE IN THE PAST. AND SO WE ALLOW THAT BEFORE BECAUSE IT'S JUST A CHANGE OUT SYSTEM. SO IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS BEING GRANDFATHERED, BUT NOWADAYS EVERYBODY GOES TO THE OUTSIDE. RIGHT. BUT, BUT NOTHING IN THIS THAT'S WRITTEN HERE WOULD PREVENT SOMEBODY FROM PUTTING IT ABOVE A TUB. LIKE THAT WOULDN'T FAIL AN INSPECTION. IT'S NOT COMMON PRACTICE. BUT THAT WOULDN'T BE A REASON TO, TO FAIL AN INSPECTION. THAT'S CORRECT. SO RECOMMENDATION MAY BE 'CAUSE YEAH, I, I THINK THE INTENT IS IT'S GOTTA BE VISIBLE. UM, HAVING HAD IT FLOOD MY HOUSE BEFORE, I UNDERSTAND THE INTENTS OF THIS AND WANNA MAKE SURE, AND I THINK, YEAH, IF IT'S A TUB, PEOPLE ARE GONNA SEE THAT AND THEY'RE GONNA LOOK AT IT. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW THE LOGISTICS OF MAKING THAT LOOK GOOD, BUT THAT'S FINE. YOU KNOW, AS LONG AS IT'S CODE-COMPLIANT. SO IF WE CAN MAKE THE AMENDMENT TO BE, IF TO THE EXTERIOR, IT NEEDS TO BE WITHIN FIVE FOOT. SO IF WE ADD THAT IF TO THE EXTERIOR, THEN THAT ALLOWS, IF THERE WAS ANY OPTION FOR THE INTERIOR OPTION, UH, PUTTING IT TO A, A TUB OR SINK OR ANY OTHER OPTION WITHIN INSIDE THE, THE PROPERTY THAT MEETS THE CODE, THEN YOU'RE GOOD. BUT IF YOU GO TO THE EXTERIOR, THEN YOU NEED TO HAVE IT AT A PRIMARY OR SECONDARY EXIT WITHIN FIVE FEET. I MEAN THAT, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A REASONABLE OR COMPROMISE, BUT I THINK YOU HAVE SOME COMMENT ABOUT THE DISTANCE. YEAH, AND I THINK WE, I THINK WE OUGHT BE CAREFUL ABOUT THE FIVE FOOT RANGE. I MEAN THESE, A LOT OF THESE HOUSES, UH, PORCHES ARE FAIRLY, THAT WOULD NOT WORK AT MY HOUSE. UH, I'M EIGHT, AT LEAST 18 FEET FROM FROM MY DOOR. IT'S STILL GOING ON A PATIO. SO SOMEBODY WILL STILL SEE IT. BUT I'M JUST SAYING THAT, WELL, THE GOOD NEWS IS MY FEET, WE'VE GOTTA BE CAREFUL IS, IS YOU'D HAVE THE, THE FOURTH OPTION IS THEY CAN'T GIVE WITHIN FIVE FEET OF THE DOOR. THEY DO A SWITCH AND SHUT THE UNIT DOWN RATHER THAN HAVING THE DRAIN. AND, AND, AND, AND AGAIN, I'LL, I'LL ASK MY COLLEAGUES OF WHAT DO YOU GUYS SEE ON THE RESIDENTIAL SIDE, BECAUSE NINE TIMES OUTTA 10 MY, WHAT I SEE IS IT'S RAIN, IT'S RAINING ON THE DOOR, AND THEY STILL DON'T CALL ANYBODY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S GOING ON. SO EVERY EVERY HOUSE I LIVE IN GETS THE SECONDARY SWITCH SO IT SHUTS OFF AND THEN SOMEBODY CALLS SOMETHING. BUT I MEAN, I, I I, I HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT THE SECONDARY, I MEAN, JUST AS A CONSUMER, RIGHT? AND THAT'S MY ROLE IN THIS BOARD IS AS A CONSUMER, I'M JUST, YOU KNOW, AS A SINGLE FAMILY CONSUMER, I'D SAY I WOULD EXPECT THE SWITCH TO FAIL . AND MY PREFERENCE WOULD BE TO HAVE THE DRAIN PIPE, RIGHT? AND SO LIKE THAT'S A SLU YEAH, THAT'S AN OPTION. BUT I DON'T THINK THE OPTION SHOULD BE, YOU KNOW, OVERLY PRESCRIPTIVE OR YOU PAY FOR THIS SWITCH THAT MAY OR MAY NOT WORK. SO I, I'M IN, I'M SUPPORT, I, I GET WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO AND I'M SUPPORTIVE OF IT. I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO BE REALLY CAREFUL ABOUT HOW WE WORD IT SO THAT IT, IT DOES SO IN A REASONABLE WAY. AND I THINK JEREMY'S ON THE WAY TO A GOOD COMPROMISE THERE. AND MAYBE WE JUST NEED TO WORK ON HOW MANY, LIKE, WHAT THE DISTANCE IS. UM, AND THEN SO WE CAN, WE, WE LAND ON A, UM, IF THE SECONDARY DRAIN GOES TO THE OUTSIDE, IT HAS TO BE WITHIN X AMOUNT OF FEET OF THE, YOU KNOW, AN EGRESS DOOR, YOU KNOW, UM, OR OR COMMON PATH OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. AND THEN TALKING WITH THE CHIEF, WE WOULD BE OKAY WITH VISIBLE FROM. SO INSTEAD OF SAYING IT NEEDS TO BE, 'CAUSE I MEAN, IT'S JUST ONE OF THOSE THINGS LIKE WALKING INTO A HOME AND YOU GOT THIS EXTRA DRIP OF WATER THAT WAS NEVER THERE. AS LONG AS IT'S SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, HEY, I AM WALKING UP, YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SEE QUITE A BIT. WELL, WHAT YOU'VE JUST DONE THEN IS YOU'VE LET 'EM GO OVER A WINDOW. IF, IF WE'RE GONNA TAKE A DISTANCE OUT [00:40:01] AND IT'S VISIBLE ANYWHERE ON THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE. I MEAN, YOU GOT, GOT A 40 FOOT WIDE HOUSE AND THE DOOR'S ON THE CORNER THAT QUOTE UNQUOTE VISIBLE IS NOW ALL THE WAY DOWN THERE. AND SO THAT'S, THAT'S WHY I AM, I'M AIMING FOR IT. IT REALLY NEEDS TO BE OVER THE SIDEWALK WHERE IT'S, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GONNA SEE IT. NOW I'M GONNA ASK A SECOND QUESTION. HOLD, CAN WE, I, I WANT TO GIVE JEREMY A OKAY. GO CHANCE TO FINISH WHAT HE WAS SAYING, IF YOU DON'T OH NO, I WAS CONCLUDED. I MEAN, MOSTLY LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, IS IT SOMETHING THAT'S VISIBLE? UM, BUT I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND GREG'S POINT AS WELL OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS THAT VISIBLE? UM, YOU KNOW, THAT'S IT, IT'S EITHER PRESCRIPTIVE WHERE WE PUT A SET THING AND OUR INSPECTORS GO OUT THERE AND BE LIKE, MEASURE TAPE THAT'S NOT FIVE FEET, WE GOTTA DO IT. ARE WE MAKE IT A LITTLE MORE VAGUE. AND THAT OPENS UP INTERPRETATION, WHICH I UNDERSTAND THERE'S SOME CONCERNS WITH THAT, WITH AN INSPECTOR ON SITE AS WELL OF WHAT'S VISIBLE AND WHAT'S NOT. SO IT, IT, LIKE, I THINK WE'RE ALL IN AGREEMENT WITH WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE IS JUST ARE, WOULD Y'ALL RATHER IT BE A LITTLE BIT MORE PRESCRIPTIVE AND ALLOW US SOME LEEWAY WITH THE INSPECTOR ON SITE OF, OKAY, YEAH, WE UNDERSTAND WHY IT'S NOT FIVE FEET, BUT YOU KNOW, YOU'RE YOU'RE GETTING WHAT WE WANT. OR DO YOU WANT IT TO BE MORE VAGUE AND NOW YOU'RE KIND OF DEALING WITH AN INSPECTOR THAT MIGHT BE, OH, YOU KNOW WHAT, NO, I CAN'T SEE THAT WHEN MAYBE THE OTHER 10 INSPECTORS COULD, BUT THAT'S WHO YOU HAVE ON THE FIELD. LUCKILY IN THE HOUSES WE'RE GENERALLY TALKING ABOUT 90 DEGREE ANGLES. SO YOU CAN EITHER SEE IT OR YOU CAN OR YOU CAN'T, YOU KNOW? WHAT ABOUT, UH, HOW ABOUT JUST VISIBLE, SOLID PATHWAY? WELL, THAT'S KIND OF WHAT I WAS SAYING. WHAT ABOUT, UH, WITHIN THE MEANS OF EGRESS? YEAH. 'CAUSE THAT WOULD ADD MEANS OF EGRESS WOULD ADD THE SIDEWALK. AND I'M OKAY WITH THAT. 'CAUSE LIKE MY, SOME OF THE HOUSES I'VE LIVED IN, YOU KNOW, THE FRONT DOOR SUCKED BACK IN FIVE FEET FROM THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE, I'D BE OKAY. UH, MY, MY QUESTION I WAS GONNA ASK IS WHAT DO WE DO POTENTIALLY, WELL, AND, AND AGAIN, WE STILL HAVE THE SWITCH OPTION, BUT WHAT DO WE DO IF WE'VE GOT A A A TWO STORY HOUSE OR A THREE STORY? 'CAUSE I KNOW WE'RE STARTING TO SEE SOME OF THOSE, UM, WITH THE, THE UNIT ALL THE WAY IN THE ATTIC. ARE WE, DO WE WANT TO THINK ABOUT THAT? AND, AND THE OTHER ONE I WAS JUST THINKING WAS THIS IS JUST DUPLEXES AND, AND SINGLE FAMILY HOMES. IT'S NOT DEALING WITH, WITH A, UH, AN APARTMENT COMPLEX WHERE WE MIGHT BE THREE STORIES TALL AND THEN IT GETS MORE INTERESTING. OKAY. CORRECT. SO CAN WE GO JUST, SO WOULD, WOULD IT BE VISIBLE, VISIBLE FROM A PRIMARY SECONDARY EXIT DOOR OR PATHWAY IF, IF OUTSIDE THE, YOU KNOW, CLEARLY VISIBLE FROM PRIMARY SECONDARY MEANS THE EGRESS AND THAT GIVES YOU THE DOOR THAT GIVES YOU THE PATHWAY? DOES THAT WORK CHIEF? THAT'LL BE FINE. JEREMY. CRYSTAL, I, I RECOMMEND THAT WE TAKE OUT PRIMARY OR SECONDARY. THOSE AREN'T TERMS THAT ARE USED IN THE RESIDENTIAL CO. BUT IF WE, IF WE HAVE EXTERIOR DOOR, MAYBE THAT'S YOUR SIDE DOOR, MAYBE THAT'S YOUR FRONT DOOR OR YOUR BACK DOOR, UM, EXTERIOR DOOR IS A TERM, UM, THAT'S REGULARLY USED IN THE CODE. JUST, JUST TO BE CONSISTENT WITH THE CODE LANGUAGE. OKAY, THAT'S GOOD. HOW ABOUT EXIT? SO IF YOU HAVE A WATER HEATER CLOSET THAT IS ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE HOUSE WITH A DOOR, THAT WOULD BE AN EXTERIOR DOOR. SO I EXTERIOR CAN PUT EXIT TO, TO DE DESIGNATE THAT IT, YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO, WE CAN PUT EGRESS, EGRESS DOOR. EGRESS DOOR. MM-HMM, . AND WE WANNA SAY CLEARLY VISIBLE. VISIBLE, A LITTLE BIT MORE CLEARLY VISIBLE FROM AN RE STORE. FROM AN RE STORE. AND THEN THE CAVEAT THAT IT HAS TO BE WHEN YOU'RE USING, WHEN YOU'RE SENDING IT TO THE OUTSIDE. SO IT STILL GIVES YOU THE OPTION OF, OF DOING SOMETHING INTERNALLY IF YOU CAN COME UP WITH A WAY OF, OF DOING THAT WHERE CONSPICUOUS INSIDE THE HOUSE, BUT ALSO NOT DAMAGING THE HOUSE. SO, SO ARE WE NOT PUTTING A A, A DISTANCE? 'CAUSE I WHAT I, I WOULD ARGUE DAY AND NIGHT, WHAT, WHAT WE JUST SAID IS EXACTLY WHAT'S IN THE CODE NOW IS AS LONG AS THERE'S AN EGRESS DOOR ON THAT SIDE OF THE HOUSE, THAT DRAIN CAN GO ANYWHERE ON THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE. AND I WILL ARGUE THAT TO MY DEATH. AND IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN PUTTING IT OVER TO THE KITCHEN WINDOW AS LONG AS THAT WINDOW'S ON THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE OR, OR ON A, ON A PLANE OF THE HOUSE THAT HAS AN EGRESS DOOR. SO I DON'T THINK WE'VE CLARIFIED ANYTHING FOR THE CITY WITH WHAT WE'VE GOT. I THINK WE HAVE TO GET PRESCRIPTIVE ON IT. MY OPINION, I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY ELSE IS GONNA GO WITH IT, BUT I I, WITH THESE CONTRACTORS, SORRY, COLLEAGUES, IF IT SAYS CLEARLY VISIBLE, THAT'S A VAGUE STATEMENT. YOU'RE GONNA BE RIGHT BACK WITH WHAT YOU'RE DEALING WITH TODAY. I, YEAH, I, I MEAN I, I I DISAGREE. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE WITH NO DOORS AND I MEAN, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, YEAH, YOU MIGHT CUT TWO SIDES OF THE HOUSE OFF WHERE IT'S GONNA DRAIN TO, BUT IT'S NOW ANYWHERE ON THE, ON THE FRONT OR BACK IN ESSENCE, BECAUSE THAT'S USUALLY WHERE THE EGRESS DOORS ARE. IT COULD BE ANYWHERE ON THERE. AND THE CONTRACTOR'S GONNA ARGUE IT'S 40 FOOT DOWN THERE AT THE OTHER CORNER OF THE HOUSE. IT'S CLEARLY VISIBLE AND ARGUE IT TO A DEATH. AND I'LL BET YOU A LAWYER WILL WIN THAT CASE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT OUR LAWYER WOULD SAY. WELL [00:45:01] FIRST OF ALL, I THINK JOSEPH WOULD WIN, BUT SECOND, SECONDLY, UM, I MEAN, IT'S STILL BETTER THAN WHAT'S IN THE CODE RIGHT NOW. 'CAUSE THE CODE RIGHT NOW JUST SAYS CONSPICUOUS, YOU KNOW, SO EITHER, I MEAN, I GET YOUR POINT, BUT THE WAY IT'S WRITTEN NOW, WE'RE DOING BETTER THAN THAT. YOU KNOW, WE'VE, WE'VE NARROWED IT. YEAH, WE'VE CUT IT. YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK IT'S INCREMENTAL STEPS. I MEAN, WHEN WE COME BACK AND LOOK AT THE 2020 SEVENS, IF WE SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE'RE STILL GETTING PUSHBACK AND, YOU KNOW, WE MIGHT NEED TO BE MORE PRESCRIPTIVE, BUT I ALSO UNDERSTAND SCOTT'S CONCERN OF, YOU KNOW, MAKE IT TOO PRESCRIPTIVE. THEN YOU'RE FIGHTING, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE FIGHTING US OVER INCHES AND WE DON'T REALLY WANNA DO THAT EITHER. THAT'S NOT OUR INTENT. UM, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HOPING THAT WITH THIS LANGUAGE, YOU KNOW, ULTIMATELY SOMEBODY COULD, YOU KNOW, WE COULD DENY IT AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS MEETING THE INTENT OF OUR AMENDMENT AND BRING IT TO THIS BOARD. IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO FIGHT IT ALL THAT WAY OR YOU KNOW, RUN IT OVER, UM, YOU KNOW, IF THERE'S, IF IT'S, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO JUST SAY, HEY, IT'S EASIER FOR ME TO RUN IT FIVE FEET THIS WAY INSTEAD OF 20 FOOT THAT WAY, THAT'S WHAT I'M GONNA DO AND I'LL TAKE IT TO THE BOARD TO DO THAT. THAT'S THEIR PREROGATIVE. THEY HAVE THAT OPTION. BUT IF IT'S A DESIGN ISSUE'S, LIKE I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT DO THIS. THEN WE AS THE DEPARTMENT HAVE ALWAYS WORKED WITH THE CONTRACTORS TO FIND WAYS OF, ARE YOU MEETING THE INTENTS OF THE CODE? AND THIS GIVES US A LITTLE BIT MORE CLEAR BEYOND THE PRESCRIPTIVE. THE PRESCRIPTIVE WOULD BE LIKE, WELL, WE, I CAN'T BECAUSE IT'S GOTTA BE FIVE FEET WORKS FOR ME. LET'S SEND IT. LET'S, SO MY OTHER QUESTION IS, IS WHERE WITHIN THIS AMENDMENT DOES IT ALLOW FOR INTERIOR CONSPICUOUS LOCATION? BECAUSE WE'VE CHANGED WHAT? YEAH, SO THAT'S WHERE WE NEEDED TO SAY, UM, THE AUXILIARY PAN DRAIN SHALL DISCHARGE THE CONSPICUOUS POINT OF, UH, OF DISPOSAL. UM, WHEN, WHEN TO THE EXTERIOR CLEARLY VISIBLE FROM THE EGRESS DOOR MAYBE. SO LET'S, CAN I RECOMMEND THIS? WE'RE GONNA, LET'S KEEP GOING. WE'RE GONNA TAKE A, A BIOLOGY BREAK HERE IN, UH, ABOUT 10 MINUTES. AND SOMETIME DURING THAT WE CAN WORDSMITH THIS TO MEET THE INTENT THAT I THINK WE'RE ALL TALKING ABOUT. AND THAT WAY WE DON'T HAVE TO BOG DOWN PROGRESS BY WORKING ON THAT. WE CAN WORK ON THE WORDING AND THEN COME BACK TO IT. IS THAT SATISFACTORY TO EVERYBODY? YEAH. OKAY. OKAY. UM, AND THEN WE'LL DO, SO WE'LL MOVE ON TO, IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE ON, UH, THE 11, 14, 11 9 1 OR PROPOSED AMENDMENT? NO, THAT WAS IT. JUST THE PROPOSED AMENDMENT. OKAY. SO LET'S MOVE ON TO ITEM 35. ITEM 35, THAT'S A NEW SECTION FOR M 1502 0.6. SO WE ARE IN CHAPTER 15 IS EXHAUST SYSTEMS AND WE ARE IN CLOTHES DRYER EXHAUST. SO THIS SECTION REQUIRES, UM, MAKEUP AIR WHERE INSTALLATION'S EXHAUSTING MORE THAN 200 CUBIC FEET PER MINUTE SHALL BE PROVIDED WITH MAKEUP AIR. SO THIS IS, SHOULD BE INCLUDED IN THE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS. UM, IN THE EVENT THAT IT'S NOT, THEN THE CODE ADDED IT HERE FOR THAT REQUIREMENT FOR MAKEUP, AIR AND CLOTHES DRY. YOU SAID THAT CLOSED DRYER SECTION CLOSED DRYER CLOSETS? YES. JUST BECAUSE I'M A LAYMAN, A NORMAL CLOSED DRYER EXHAUSTS IS, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? EVERY CLOSED DRYER YOU PUT IN A HOUSE IS GONNA REQUIRE MAKEUP AIR IF IT'S MORE THAN 200. YEAH. IF IT EXHAUSTS MORE THAN 200 CUBIC FEET PER MINUTE. CAN SOMEONE LOOK UP WHAT A CLOSED DRYER, STANDARD CLOSED DRYER EXHAUSTS PLEASE. AND THEN WE, I GUESS WE CAN COME BACK TO THIS. WELL, THAT, BUT ALSO THE QUESTION IS THIS, IS IT DEPENDENT ON THE MACHINE? BECAUSE TYPICALLY WHEN YOU'RE DOING A SINGLE FAMILY INSPECTION, THERE'S NO MACHINE THERE, RIGHT? CORRECT. SO HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? IT'S NOT REQUIRED. SO, SO THE QUICK GOOGLE SAYS ONE 50 TO 200, WHICH I BELIEVE IS CORRECT. DOES ANYBODY REMEMBER WHEN WE DID THAT, THAT APARTMENT COMPLEX THAT WAS APPEALING? THE DRYER EXHAUST? DO WE HAVE ANY OF THAT? PDF SAVED ANYWHERE? THE CITY MIGHT HAVE IT. I WAS THINKING THEY WERE TWO 20 AND I THINK I WAS JUST DOING A BARRACK, UH, MILITARY BARRACKS IN NEW MEXICO, AND I THINK THEY WERE 220. SO THAT, BUT THAT WAS, AGAIN, IT'S SPECIFIC TO MODEL. YOU ARE CORRECT. IT'S SPECIFIC TO MODEL DRYERS AREN'T THERE WHEN THAT YOU BUILD A HOUSE, YOU GET A PERMIT, THERE'S NO DRYER THERE. SO WE, WE SHOULD EITHER SAY IT'S REQUIRED OR IT'S NOT REQUIRED BECAUSE I JUST THAT'S A GOOD POINT. VERY GOOD POINT. I MEAN, ARE Y'ALL HAVING ANY PROBLEM WITH THIS NOW? I I, I MIGHT SAY WE STRIKE THIS. 'CAUSE YOU'RE, YOU'RE RIGHT. HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT'S BEING INSTALLED IN A NEW HOME? IT, IT, IT, IT, IT'S EITHER THAT WE SAY THAT MAKEUP ERROR IS REQUIRED OR WE SAY THAT IT'S NOT [00:50:01] REQUIRED. I, I AGREE WITH YOU AND, AND NOT, AND KNOWING THAT MOST RESIDENTIALS ARE GONNA BE SMALLER THAN THIS. DO WE JUST STRIKE IT? NOT AGAIN, HERE'S THE GUY THAT LIKES TO KEEP IT IN THE CODE AND IT'S IN THE CODE. BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. I, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU DEFINE THAT WHEN YOU'RE BUILDING A HOUSE AND, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MAKEUP ERROR, RIGHT? THAT'S, SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IF IT'S A, IN THE CONDITION SPACE WE'RE TALKING HAS A AC REGISTER IN THE ROOM, BASICALLY? NO, IT CAN BE AN UNDERCUT DOOR, RIGHT? OR A LOUVRE THAT PROVIDES, UM, ADDITIONAL AIR FROM THE SURROUNDING AREAS. SO YOU PUT IT IN A ROOM BECAUSE YOU WANT SOUNDPROOFING, SO YOU DON'T HEAR THE DRYER GOING ALL DAY, ALL NIGHT. AND SO WHAT DO YOU DO LIKE IN THE GARAGE AND THERE? A MINIMUM SQUARE FOOT. YEAH. NOT LESS THAN A HUNDRED SQUARE FOOT. WELL, IN THE PLUMBING CODE, IT, IT PRETTY MUCH IS RELATIVE TO THE ROOM SQUARE FOOTAGE IN THE ROOM BECAUSE WE HAVE TO FIGURE COMBUSTION AIR FOR OUR NATURAL GAS DRYERS, AND WE'RE HAVING TO CONSIDER THAT COMBUSTION AIR, BUT WE NEVER DID, I NEVER DID CONSIDER THE EXHAUST ALSO MOVING AIR OUT OF THE HOUSE. YEAH. THAT, AND THIS IS BECOMING A BIGGER ISSUE BECAUSE OUR HOMES ARE BECOMING SO AIRTIGHT, YOU KNOW, YOU ALREADY GOT THE LITTLE, THE LITTLE DAMPER ON THE FURNACE I THINK YOU GOTTA REQUIRE FOR THAT. UM, BUT IS IS THE HOMES BECOME TIGHTER AND TIGHTER? I MEAN, AS THE ENGINEER, I ALWAYS LAUGH MY BUTT OFF OF GOING, OKAY, THE KITCHEN EXHAUST IS A COUPLE HUNDRED, A BATHROOM EXHAUST IS WHAT, 75 TIMES TWO IN A HOME, AND EVERYBODY GETS UP AND TAKES A SHOWER AT SEVEN O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING AND YOU KEEP GOING. YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU COULD EASILY HAVE A HOME THAT'S EXHAUSTING 500 PLUS CFM AT THE EXACT SAME TIME AND IN THE NEW HOMES AND AS TIGHT AS THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, YOU GOT A LITTLE FOUR INCH DAMPER THAT, THAT MIGHT BE ON THE RETURN ERROR. THAT, AND AGAIN, I DON'T DO MUCH RESIDENTIAL DESIGN. IT'S, YOU KNOW, WHAT I SEE ON THE GOOGLE THAT THAT'S TIME TO OPEN AND ONLY OPEN FOR WHAT, 20 MINUTES OR IT'S OPEN WHEN THE UNIT RUNS, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S PRETTY EASY TO SUCK A HOUSE. VERY NEGATIVE AND BACK DRAFT STUFF. SO CRYSTAL, JEREMY, IF WE, IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE'S SOME, OH, I'M SORRY, GO AHEAD GEORGE, YOU HAD SOMETHING YOU WANNA SAY? UH, UH, GEORGE LEE, I WAS GONNA ASK CHIEF IF, UH, ON RE NEW RESIDENTIAL YOU HAVE FRESH AIR DESIGN COMING IN. CORRECT? DOES AND WHAT'S THAT OFFSET OR HOW MUCH IS THAT CUBIC FEET? WELL, THAT'S DETERMINED BY THE AMOUNT OF, UH, BEDROOMS IN, IN THE SQUARE FOOTAGE OF THE HOUSE. SO IT'S, IT'S, IT JUST DEPENDS ON THE SIZE OF THE HOUSE AND HOW MANY BEDROOMS. SO THEN WHAT PERCENTAGE WOULD YOU FIGURE PER SQUARE FOOT OR IF IT'S A 2000 SQUARE FOOT HOUSE, WHAT IS OUR, WHILE GIVE US A SWAG, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT THAT CFM REALLY IS? ON, ON AVERAGE, I WILL, UH, ROUGHLY ON, UH, 2000 SQUARE FEET'S, PROBABLY ABOUT 60 C FM 65 CFM COMING IN. YEAH. AND, AND, AND SEE THAT'S WHERE I SAY THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION IS, YOU LOOK AT AN AIR BALANCE ON A HOME, IT'S NOWHERE NEAR WHAT YOU NEED. IT REALLY IS. IT'S NOWHERE NEAR WHAT YOU NEED. A HOME REALLY SHOULD HAVE MORE LIKE 200 CFM TO COVER YOUR BATHROOM EXHAUST AND YOU GOT A KITCHEN HOOD THAT EXHAUST THE OUTSIDE. AGAIN, THAT'S A COUPLE HUNDRED CFM WHEN THAT THING KICKS ON. SO YEAH, IF YOU'RE SUCKING HUMIDITY THROUGH THE WALL KITCHEN, KITCHEN HOOD'S USUALLY FIGURED SEPARATELY ON A, ON A SEPARATE FRESH AIR THAT'S TIED IN. BUT THE HOOD, WHEN THE HOOD COMES ON, AND I THINK IT'S OVER 400 CFMS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THAT WE BRING IN FRESH AIR FOR, FOR THOSE TYPE OF HOODS. UH, AND IT REALLY DEPENDS ON, UH, ON, YOU KNOW, WHAT METHOD WE'RE FOLLOWING ON RA. IF IT'S, UH, HOW FAR BACK WE'RE GOING BACK, UH, YOU KNOW, IF YOU GO TO THE 21, IT'S GONNA BE CLOSER TO PROBABLY 6%, I THINK. YEAH, THAT'S CORRECT. BUT, YOU KNOW, BA UH, BACK TO WHAT ROSS WAS SAYING ABOUT THIS CODE SECTION, I MEAN, IF YOU READ THE LAST PARAGRAPHS, IT SAYS IF THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS ARE NOT PROVIDE SPECIFIC SPECIFICATIONS TO PROVISIONS OF MAKEUP AIR, ONE OR MORE PERMANENT OPENINGS, HAVING A TOTAL AREA OF NOT LESS THAN A HUNDRED SQUARE INCHES SHALL BE PROVIDED IN THE CLOSET ENCLOSURE OR MAKEUP AIR SHALL BE PROVIDED BY OTHER APPROVED MEANS. SO IF WE DON'T HAVE THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS WHEN THE HOUSE IS BEING BUILT, THEN THEY'RE GONNA HAVE TO UH, YOU KNOW, UH, PERMANENT OPENINGS HAVING A TOTAL, SO IT'S KIND OF LIKE WHAT YOU SAID, EITHER HAVE IT OR DON'T HAVE IT. YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO PUT A DOOR OR A DOOR WITH A, YEAH. WHICH YOU SAID ANY BY FOUR A [00:55:02] NOW YOU HAVE TO ADD A 10 BY 10. UH, YES. I'M SORRY. YES. NOT, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. IT'S PROBABLY GONNA BE FREE AREA. SO 10 BY 10 IS ABOUT, MOST LURES ARE 50% FREE AREA. SO YOU'RE LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, A 20 BY 10 OR, YEAH. IT'S THIS TOTAL AREA. SO UNDERCUT OF THE DOOR WILL, YOU KNOW, PLAY INTO THIS ALSO. YEAH. AND I MEAN, WE'RE BRINGING IN FRESH AIR TO THE HOUSE ALREADY THAT, AND MOST UTILITY ROOMS WOULD HAVE A SUPPLY DUCT. SO YOU, YOU WILL BE SUPPLYING THAT ROOM UNDER PRESSURE. WELL, NO, BUT THIS IS FOR , THAT'S FOR THE CLOSET YOU HAVE. SO IF YOU HAVE A 36 INCH DOOR, YOU WOULD NEED BASICALLY ALMOST A TWO AND A HALF OR THREE INCH CUT, WHICH PUTS YOU PAST THE STYLE OF THE DOOR, WHICH MEANS THEY'RE, THEY'RE GONNA PUT A IN THE DOOR INSTEAD BECAUSE THE DOOR WOULD BE NOT REALLY USABLE AT THAT POINT. OR, OR, UH, MAKE AIR SHOULD BE PROVIDED BY OTHER APPROVED MEANS. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. BUT THIS IS FOR A CLOSET, BUT, BUT WHICH THEN IS DEFINED AS A SUPPLY DECK OF YOUR AC UNIT. YEAH. THAT'S WHY. SO THAT SUPPLY WOULD OFFSET YOUR, IF IT'S A 500 CUBIC FOOT, I, I THINK THAT'D BE ENOUGH FOR, FOR RESIDENTIAL, FOR SURE. I THINK IT'S, IT, I MEAN, YOU'RE DOING IT FOR THE HOUSE ALREADY. I, I MEAN, IF YOU START, I MEAN, WE'RE GONNA BE ADDING MORE COSTS FOR, FOR SOMETHING. I DON'T THINK IT'S NECESSARY. AND I DID THE SAME QUICK GOOGLE SEARCH THAT GREG DID, AND IT SAYS A TYPICAL ONE IS 100 TO 200, AND THIS IS, THIS SECTION ONLY APPLIES IF IT'S MORE THAN THAT 200. SO ANY TYPICAL RESIDENTIAL, IT'S THE 200 IS THE MAX, AND IF IT'S MORE THAN THAT, THEN THIS SECTION WOULD APPLY. YEAH. AND I THINK THAT JUST TAKES US BACK TO THE, THE PROBLEM OF THE DRYER'S NOT THERE WHEN THE INSPECTION HAPPENS. AND IF THE STANDARD IS A HUNDRED TO 200, BUT CHIEF JUST SAID THAT, WELL, IF IT'S NOT THERE, WE HAVE TO ASSUME IT'S GONNA BE MORE THAN 200. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? IT, IT ADDS A LOT OF IT, IT ADDS A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, PROBLEM. WHAT, WHAT'S THE DEFINITION OF MAKEUP AIR IN, IN IRC? IS IT AIR FROM THE OUTSIDE OF THE BUILDING, OR IS IT, OR IS IT MORE ALONG THE DEFINITION OF WHAT WE TRADITIONALLY THINK TRANSFER AIR? IT'S NOT SPECIFICALLY DEFINED. SO WE WOULD GO WITH A TYPICAL DEFINITION CLAUSE. YEAH. MAKE, MAKE AIR IN, I'M ASSUMING IN LAYMAN'S TERMS, WOULD BE AIR FROM THE OUTSIDE OF THE HOUSE WHEN WE DO A VAN HOOD COMMERCIAL BUILDING, AND IT TALKS ABOUT MAKEUP AIR, IT'S COMING FROM OUTSIDE SO THAT YOU, YOU HAVE THE RELEASE FOR NEGATIVE PRESSURE INTO THE THING. CORRECT. I, I WOULD AGREE. THAT'S HOW I WOULD DEFINE MAKEUP AIR. I MEAN, AND THE WATER FROM OUTSIDE THE BUILDING. YOU HAVE TO HAVE MAKEUP AIR FOR GAS FURNACE. IT'S COMING FROM THE OUTSIDE OF THE HOUSE. YOU CAN'T JUST RUN A DUCK INTO THE UNIT AND CORRECT. CORRECT. I WAS THINKING YOU CAN USE TRANSFER AIR TO, TO FIRE YOUR NATURAL GAS APPLIANCES. YEAH. YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO CREATE, NOT CREATE THAT NEGATIVE PRESSURE. SO MAYBE THAT'S WHAT THE KEY IS. MAYBE THERE'S GOTTA BE A STATEMENT, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU BALANCE WELL, IT'S STILL GOING TO CREATE EXPENSE THAT, SO THE WAY OKAY. MAKE UP AIR. SO IF YOU'RE SUCKING UP 200 CFMS FROM THAT CLOSET, YOU NEED TO MAKE UP FOR THE NEGATIVE PRESSURE. YOU'RE SUCKING IT OUT OF THE HOUSE. THAT'S THE KEY. IT'S COMING OUTTA THE HOUSE. YEAH. WELL, YES. I MEAN, THIS IS ENCLOSURE, CLOSE ENCLOSURE, BUT YEAH, SO YOU'RE JUST MAKING UP THE AIR THAT YOU'RE SUCKING OUT OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE CLOSET ENCLOSURE SO THAT, YOU KNOW, EVEN LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, A HOOD, YOU'RE SUCKING UP 400 CFMS. YOU GOTTA MAKE UP THAT AIR THAT YOU'RE SUCKING OUT BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE NEGATIVE PRESSURE INSIDE A, A RESIDENCE. BUT IN THIS ONE IT SAYS CLOSE IT ENCLOSURE. SO ALL YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS JUST TRYING, YOU KNOW, TO MAKE UP THE AIR THAT YOU'RE SUCKING OUT THROUGH THE DRYER. UH, CAN YOU SCROLL UP? 15 0, 2 0.6 I THINK IS NOT JUST FOR CLOSETS. THE ONE BELOW, IT DOES SAY CLOSET INSTALLATION. SO IN THIS CASE, IT, AGAIN, IT'S ANY, IF YOU PUT THAT DRYER ANYWHERE IN YOUR HOUSE, YOU, YOU, THIS IS NOT APPLICABLE ONLY TO A CLOSET WHEN WITH MAKEUP AIR, IT'S THE ANYWHERE IN THE HOUSE. CLICK ON THE P AND SO WE CAN SEE WHAT THEY'RE, WHAT THEY'RE ON ABOUT CLICK ON THE WHAT ON THE, THE CODE DETAILS. CHANGE THAT, NOT THAT NO, CLICK ON THE CODE CHANGE DETAILS. YEAH, [01:00:07] THAT'S A, THAT'S A VERY RIDICULOUS COMMENT. THE EXTRACTION SHOULD NOT INCREASE THE, THE CONSTRUCTION AS NO NEW MATERIALS ARE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE AN OPENING IN A WALL AS IF WE'RE JUST GONNA LIKE, HAVE LIKE A, A, A BARE WALL OPENING INTO THE, INTO THE, WHERE THE DRYER IS. UH, THAT GIVES YOU SOME INSIGHT INTO THE, THE GENIUSES. UH, WELL, I'M SORRY, I SHOULDN'T BE, I SHOULDN'T BE DEROGATORY LIKE THAT. YEAH. TO THE, THERE IS A DEFINITION OF MAKEUP BEAR, CAN YOU GO UP A LITTLE BIT? YOU KNOW, IN THE OLD DAYS, WE, WE COULD USE TRANSFER AIR BECAUSE THE HOUSE LEAKED LIKE A SIEVE. BUT TODAY OUR HOUSES ARE GETTING SO TIGHT THAT THIS, THIS IS GONNA BECOME A BIGGER ISSUE. YOU KNOW, IT'S, I I THINK IT'S A MATTER OF TIME WITH HOW TIGHT OUR HOUSES ARE IN HUMID CLIMATES WITH THE, THE, THE AMOUNT OF EXHAUST WE HAVE . I WONDER WHAT THOSE WALL CAVITIES ARE GONNA LOOK LIKE IN, IN 10 OR 15 YEARS. YEAH. AND THAT'S WHY FRESH AIR IS INTRODUCING TO THE HOME, WHICH IS, THAT'S WHAT SCOTT WAS SAYING EARLIER, YOU GOT FRESH AIR COMING IN INTO THE HOME, WHICH IS A COMBINATION OF OUTDOOR AND TRANSFER AIR INTENDED TO REPLACE THE AIR THAT THE DRYER IS SUCKING UP. RIGHT. BUT I MEAN, SO HOW MUCH FRESH AIR ARE YOU PUTTING INTO THE HOUSE NOW TO THE STANDARD OF RA? 62.2. YEAH. SO NOW IF YOU HAVE A 225, YOU'D HAVE TO GO UP TO 225 TO REPLACE THE AIR THAT'S BEING SUCKED OUT. YEP. AND, AND I'LL, AND I'LL PUT A WILD ONE IN HERE FOR YOU THAT, YOU KNOW, THE CHEAPEST WAY TO DO THIS ON A SINGLE STORY HOME IS YOU'RE JUST GONNA TAKE A SIX INCH DUCT AND STICK IT THROUGH THE CEILING AND INTRODUCE UNCONDITIONED AIR INTO THAT ROOM. YOU KNOW, LIKE I I, I'VE GOT A HUNDRED AND A HUNDRED SQUARE FOOT ROOM WHERE MY WASHER DRYER IS. AND LIKE I SAID, IF I HAVE TO, TO DO THAT, THAT'S, THAT'S HOW EVERYBODY'S GONNA DO IT. CHEAP AND EASY PROBABLY. SO I, I STILL JUST LAND BACK ON, YOU CAN'T INSPECT THIS. RIGHT. IT'S AN, IT'S AN UNENFORCEABLE ITEM. ALL THESE, I MEAN, WITH MY APOLOGIES TO THE ENGINEERS IN THE ROOM. I MEAN, THESE STANDARDS ARE WRITTEN BY PEOPLE IN A ROOM WITH THEIR, WITH THE CALCULATORS UP. I MEAN, PEOPLE WALK IN AND OUT OF THE HOUSE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALWAYS INTRODUCING MORE AIR THAN THE LITTLE VENT DRAWS IN ALWAYS. UM, I DON'T KNOW. I, I HAVEN'T, I, I, I FEEL LIKE THERE'S AN APPETITE TO STRIKE IT OR TO DO SOMETHING WITH THIS. I CAN, I MAKE A RECOMMENDATION THAT WE JUST STRIKE THAT SECTION. I MEAN, I, I THINK I AGREE. IT'S UNENFORCEABLE ON NEW CONSTRUCTION, OR, OR DO WE WANT TO ADD SOME WORDS THAT SAYS THAT'S, THAT'S ONLY FOR, I I DON'T, LET'S JUST STRIKE IT. I RECOMMEND WE STRIKE IT. SO IT'S NOT, DO YOU WANNA MAKE THAT MOTION, GREG? I DON'T KNOW. OR YOU WANNA VOTE ON IT NOW? I, I THINK IF WE'RE MAKING AN AMENDMENT OR STRIKE IT UP. YES. YEAH. I RECOMMEND THAT WE STRIKE SECTION M 1502 0.6. IS THAT A, IS THAT A MOTION? SORRY, DID I NOT SAY THAT RIGHT? AGAIN, I BLAME IT ON THE DRUGS. . I'LL SECOND THAT MOTION. THIS IS, ALL RIGHT. SO WE HAVE A MOTION FROM GREG TO STRIKE. 1502 M 1502 0.6 AND M 15. OH 2.6 0.1. SECONDED BY COREY. ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION? OH, OH, OH. I, NO, NO, I, UH, WE NEED TO KEEP 6.1, BUT I GUESS WE NEED TO RENUMBER THAT SLIGHTLY. OKAY, SO THAT'S, SO THE MOTION IS JUST FOR 15 FOR NOW. THEN MOTION IS M 1502 0.6. UM, AND COREY, YOU OKAY WITH THAT SECOND? OKAY. SO ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THAT? ALL IN FAVOR SAY YES. YES. YEAH. ANY OPPOSED SAY NO. ANY ABSTENTIONS? OKAY. SO WE STRUCK M 1502 0.6. DOES ANYBODY WANNA MAKE A MOTION TO STRIKE M 1502 0.61? I WOULD CONTEND THAT THE SAME ISSUES APPLY. UM, WELL, BUT IT, I MEAN, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A WA BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE OPERATED 90% OF THE TIME WHEN YOU HAVE A CLOSET INSTALLATION EITHER UPSTAIRS OR DOWNSTAIRS, AND YOU'RE USING THE WASHER, THE DOORS ARE OPEN. I MEAN, THE DOORS ARE NEVER JUST, IT, IT'S, IT'S NOT A UTILITY ROOM. IT'S A CLOSET WHERE THE WASHER AND DRYER USUALLY ARE THE ONLY THING IN IT. AND WHEN YOU'RE USING IT, YOU DON'T SHUT THE WASHER AND DRYER OUT BECAUSE YOU ARE LOADING AND UNLOADING AND, WELL, THE DRYERS RUN INTO MY HOUSE. MY WIFE CLOSES THE DOOR BECAUSE THE THING IS SO STUPID LOUD. SO THAT'S, THAT'S WHY I SAY TO KEEP THE 0.1, BECAUSE WE DO NEED TRANSFER AIR FOR CLOSET INSTALLATIONS. SO THAT'S, SO THAT'S WHY I SAY 0.1 THE WAY I, THE WAY I READ IT, IF YOU STRIKE THE 200 CUBIC FEET PER MINUTE, THE, THERE'S MAKEUP AIR REQUIRED AT ANY CFM FOR CLOTHES DRYER IN A CLOSET. JUST, JUST TO POINT THAT OUT. BUT I THINK THAT'S THE WAY IT IS, REGARDLESS. [01:05:03] NO, IF YOU, YOU HAVE TO, YOU READ THEM IN ORDER, RIGHT? SO MAKEUP AIR, IF IT'S OVER 200 CFM AND THEN YOU GO, IS IT IN A CLOSET? DO MY OTHER CODE ENFORCING PEERS SEE THE SAME THING? SO IF YOU'RE NOT OVER TO A HUNDRED CFM, YOU SKIP THIS SECTION ALTOGETHER. WELL, BUT IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN THE WHOLE THING SHOULD JUST COME OUT BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL BETWEEN 150 AND 200 OR 99% OF EM. YEAH. THE ENFORCEABILITY, THE ENFORCEABILITY PART DOESN'T CHANGE IF IT'S IN A CLOSET OR IF IT'S IN, WELL, IT'S IN A CLOSET. YOU, YOU, YOU STILL NEED THE LOUVER TO GET AIR INTO A CLOSET. THAT'S THE ISSUE. THIS IS INSTALLED IN A, IN A TH IN A, IN A 16 SQUARE FOOT CLOSET, LET'S SAY IN WITH A DOOR THAT WHEN YOU CLOSE THAT DOOR, YOU'VE GOTTA GET AIR INTO THAT ROOM AND TO, TO THE, THE FUEL FIRED DRYERS AUTOMATICALLY ARE GONNA HAVE TO HAVE THE LURE. SO I THINK WE NEED TO RENUMBER AND SINCE IF WE STRIKE 0.6, THEN WE'D HAVE TO RENUMBER 6.1 TO JUST SIMPLY BE 0.6. 'CAUSE THAT STILL WOULD ALLOW, IT DOES SAY TRANS, LET ME LOOK IN THERE. I THOUGHT IT SAID TRANSFER AIR. IT DOES. WE HAVE, WELL MAKE AIR IS DEFINED AS TRANSFER OR FRESH AIR EITHER. YEAH. AND MAYBE WE NEED TO CHANGE ON 0.1. WE CHANGE IT FROM MAKEUP AIR TO JUST TRANSFER AIR IN THAT DEFINITION. 'CAUSE THEN I NO, BUT THINK IT'S RELATIVELY EASY TO ENFORCE. NO, BUT THE, THERE'S A DEFINITION OF OF MAKEUP AIR FOR THIS SECTION THAT WE JUST SAW THAT SAID EITHER OUTDOOR OR FRESH AIR. CORRECT. YEAH. SO IT'S EITHER, IT'S ALREADY A DEFINED TERM. OKAY. SO AS LONG AS, AS LONG AS THE, WE ALLOWED THE, THE AIR FROM OTHER LOCATIONS IN THE HOME, IE TRANSFER AIR AND THAT FALLS UNDER THE DEFINITION OF MAKEUP AIR, THEN I THINK WE JUST RENUMBER 0.1. YEAH. I I, I DON'T THINK, WE DON'T, WE DON'T RENUMBER IT. I THINK THE, WE WOULD HAVE, WE WOULD STRIKE OUT 15 OH 0.4 15. OH 2.6. KEEP 1502 0.6 0.1. 'CAUSE RENUMBERING, IT, IT, WE KEEP THE 0.1. YEAH, WE ABSOLUTELY CAN. WE, WE, WE CAN, WE CAN PLAY WITH THE NUMBERING. YEAH. JUST BECAUSE, LET YOU STRIKE THIS. IT, IT DOESN'T, YEAH. ONE HAS TO BE REMOVED. I THINK IT SHOULD BE, I IT'S NO BIG DEAL. IF YOU HAVE A CLOSET, YOU PUT A 10 BY 10 OPENING IT, IT DOESN'T SAY CLEAR OPENING. IT JUST SAYS TOTAL AREA OF A HUNDRED SQUARE INCHES. SO IT'S JUST BASICALLY THE SIZE OF THE VENT. IT DOESN'T SAY, YEAH, I, I'M JUST SAYING THE NORMAL DEFINITION WOULD BE FREE AREA OF A LOUVRE AND MOST LOUVRES ARE BETWEEN 40 AND 60% FREE AREA. BUT THAT'S NOT, THIS JUST SAYS A TOTAL AREA, WHICH MEANS THE SIZE OF THE BEND IS A HUNDRED SQUARE INCHES, WHICH MEANS YOU CHIEF, YOU WOULD JUST PUT A, YOU COULD PUT A 10 BY 10 LOUVRE IN THE DOOR AND THAT THAT WOULD SUFFICE. RIGHT? YEAH, THAT'S, YES. BUT YES. UM, THAT'S ONLY IF IT'S DESIGNED THAT WAY. SO SOME OF THESE APARTMENT COMPLEXES, SOME OF THESE HOUSES, THEY DON'T HAVE A CLOSET FOR THE WASHER OR THE DRYER. YOU KNOW, SOME ARE DESIGNS WHERE THEY'RE IN THE HALLWAY, WHERE THE LOUVER DOOR, I MEAN, THERE'S JUST SO MANY DIFFERENT NO, NO, BUT IF IT'S NOT IN A CLOSET, THIS WOULDN'T APPLY. SO IF IT IS IN A CLOSED CLOSET, A SMALL CLOSET WHERE THE ONLY THING IN THERE IS THE WASHER AND THE DRYER, A 10 BY 10 LOUVRE WOULD SUFFICE, RIGHT? YES. YEAH. SO I, I THINK WE SHOULD JUST LEAVE IT IN. IT ALLOWS THE MAKEUP AIR, IT DOESN'T REALLY COST ANYTHING. YOU'RE DONE. YEAH. AND THE WAY I READ IT, IT, IT'S, YOU ASSUME THAT THE DRYER DOES IS A NORMAL DRYER THAT DOESN'T HAVE SOME OWN ITS OWN MAKEUP, AIR PRODUCTION. YOU KNOW, THE WAY THIS IS WR WRITTEN, LIKE TO CRYSTAL'S POINT? I, I THINK SO. YEAH. WELL, 1506 OR WHATEVER IT STAYS IN. ALRIGHT, UM, LET'S TAKE A BREAK AND, UH, WE, WE'LL COME BACK IN 10 MINUTES. THIS IS GREG MCFARLAND. I'M LEAVING. I HAVE SOME MEDICAL APPOINTMENTS THAT I NEED TO ATTEND TO. SO GOOD SEEING YOU ALL. I'M GLAD TO BE BACK. SO, BUT WE'LL SEE YOU LATER. THANKS GREG. SO WE'LL AURN UNTIL, THANK YOU GREG. UH, 10 25. IT'S, UH, LOOKS LIKE 13 AFTER RIGHT NOW. ALRIGHT EVERYBODY, IT'S UH, 10 25. I'D LIKE TO GET US STARTED HERE AGAIN. [01:10:17] ALRIGHT, IT'S TEN TWENTY FIVE. WE'RE CALL BACK TO ORDER. I THINK WE ARE ON ITEM 36. HOPEFULLY, UM, WE CAN TALK ABOUT THIS ONE FOR 20 TO 30 MINUTES AS WELL, SO HOPEFULLY NOT, UM, ITEM 36. THOSE WERE NEW ITEMS BROUGHT OVER FROM THE IMC. SO WE DID DISCUSS THIS WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT IMC 6 0 1 0.5 FOR RETURN AIR OPENINGS. THIS WAS, UH, TO COMBAT THE MOLD GROWTH IN CLOSETS DUE TO THOSE TIGHT BUILDINGS. SO THEY ADDED ITEMS FOUR, FIVE, AND SIX THERE AS, UM, AGAIN, SO WE'RE IN DUCT SYSTEMS RETURN AIR, THIS IS RETURN AIR OPENINGS. SO RETURN AIR OPENINGS SHALL COMPLY WITH ALL OF THE FOLLOWING WHEN THIS, THEN THAT, THIS IS CORY PALMER. THIS IS FOR THE SAME OCCUPANCY TYPES THAT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING PREVIOUSLY, RIGHT? YES. FAMILY HOMES, DUPLEXES. EXACTLY. SO SINGLE FAMILY AND TWO FAMILY DWELLINGS. NOT SURE A LOT OF THOSE HAVE BOILER ROOMS OR FURNACE ROOMS. SO NOT LIKELY FOUR AND FIVE WOULD BE APPLICABLE IN OUR AREA. NUMBER SIX IS THE ONE THAT WE TALKED ABOUT. SOME WOULD A, WOULD A FURNACE ROOM AND A FURNACE CLOSET BE THE SAME THING? I WOULD SAY YES IS, I'M NOT SURE THAT THERE'S A, WHERE IT SAYS IT'S A FURNACE ROOM AND A FURNACE. CLOSET. THE SAME THING CLOSET IS. OH, OKAY. I WONDER IF FURNACE CLOSET IS DEFINED CLOSET. I, YEAH, I GUESS, I MEAN, A FURNACE ROOM COULD BE CONSIDERED A MECHANICAL ROOM. IT JUST WITH A FURNACE IN IT. UH, BUT IF, IF THE ONLY THING, IF YOU HAVE A CLOSET THAT JUST HAS THE FURNACE IN IT, IS THAT A FURNACE ROOM? BECAUSE CLOSETS CLOSET IS DEFINED AS A SMALL ROOM OR CHAMBER USED FOR STORAGE. SO A CLOSET ALONE IS STORAGE. ANY, UH, ANY CONCERNS ON THIS ONE? ON, WE'LL MOVE ON TO ITEM 37. OKAY. ITEM 37. WE ARE APPRO. CAN YOU WAIT? YES. SO I, I HATE TO BE A PAIN. SO IF I HAVE A FURNACE CLOSET THAT HAS MAKEUP AIR COMING FROM THE OUTSIDE INTO THAT FURNACE CLOSET, AND AT THAT POINT, DOES MY APPLIANCE HAVE TO BE SEALED? COMBUSTION APPLIANCE, BECAUSE NONE OF THE FURNACES ARE SEALED. I'M, I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND, LIKE, TO ME, A SEALED COMBUSTION APPLIANCE AND, AND PLUMBING WOULD BE A WATER HEATER THAT SUCKS ITS AIR FROM OUTSIDE AND THERE'S NO TRANSFER OF AIR INTO THE THING. SO WE HAVE A LOT OF SINGLE FAMILY HOMES THAT HAVE, UH, THE AIR IS COMING INTO THE CLOSET FROM THE OUTSIDE, WHICH MEANS IT'S SUCKING ITS AIR IN THROUGH THE, THE MECHANICAL OR THE FURNACE ROOM. WOULD THAT APPLIANCE THEN HAVE TO BE SEALED? I THINK THEY'RE REFERRING, IF YOU'RE BRINGING IN RETURN AIR, UH, IN, FROM, FROM THAT ROOM, THEN IT NEEDS TO BE A SEALED COMBUSTION. THAT'S FINE. THANK YOU. YOU GOOD, MARK? OKAY, SO WE'LL MOVE TO, UH, ITEM 37 M 2002 0.1. OKAY, SO CHAPTER 20, WERE IN BOILERS AND WATER HEATERS. SO THESE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DISCHARGE PIPE WERE BROUGHT OVER. UM, WE SAW THIS IN THE IMC. UM, THEY WERE BROUGHT OVER FROM THE PLUMBING CODE. SO JUST TO MATCH THE PLUMBING CODE. AND WE HAVE A COUPLE OF AMENDMENTS, UM, TO THIS LIST FROM THE PLUMBING CODE. SO JUST PROPOSING AN AMENDMENT TO BRING THOSE OVER FOR THIS SECTION, [01:15:12] JUST TO BE CONSISTENT WITH ALL OF OUR, ALL OF OUR CODES. IS THIS CUT OFF? IS THERE A 12 AND 13? YES. OKAY. OH, IT'S, OH, WE ADDED 14. THAT WAS THE AMENDMENT, RIGHT? YES. ANY CONCERN THERE? OKAY, WE'RE GOOD. THAT, OKAY. SO WE'VE GOTTEN THROUGH ITEMS 31 THROUGH 37. UM, FOR ITEM 33, WE'VE, UH, ALREADY VOTED TO AMEND OUT, UH, NUMBER ONE OF, UH, M 1411 0.5. AND WE'VE AMENDED, UH, RECOMMENDED TO AMEND OUT, UH, 1506 0.2. UM, BUT KEEP 1506 0.2 0.1 AND WE CAN FIGURE OUT THE NOMENCLATURE OF THAT LATER ON. SO NOW WE'RE GONNA MOVE ON TO THE ITEMS THAT WE TABLED. AND THE ONE ITEM WE SKIPPED FROM THE PREVIOUS, WHICH WERE ITEMS 13 22, 28, AND 30. UH, SO CRYSTAL, DO YOU WANT TO, DO YOU HAVE ANY ORDER YOU WANNA DO THOSE? YOU JUST WANNA GO BACK TO 13 AND START THERE? IT HAS JEREMY, IT HAS TO BE TWO SEPARATE MOTIONS RIGHT AT THE END OF THE MEETING. WE WOULDN'T NEED TO, SO Y'ALL CAN EITHER GO AHEAD AND MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE IRC. AND DO WE ALSO WANNA LOOK AT THAT LANGUAGE FOR, CORRECT? YEAH, UH, LET'S JUST DO, LET'S DO THAT. COULD I JUST MAKE ONE COMMENT? UH, I'M SORRY. COULD WE GO BACK AND LOOK AT THOSE, UM, LAST 13 ITEMS? NUMBER TWO, I MEAN, IN THE PLUMBING CODE, YOU CAN'T USE AN AIR BRAKE. IT'S AN AIR CAP. AGREED. THIS IRC LANGUAGE SAYS AIR BRAKE SPECIFICALLY, DOES THAT NEED TO BE AMENDED? GEORGE, CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN? OKAY. SO AN AIR GAP IS YOUR DRAIN FROM YOUR APPLIANCE. YOUR EMERGENCY RELIEF VALVE, WHATEVER YOU WISH TO CALL IT, IS SEPARATED FROM YOUR DRAIN OPENING BY A MINIMUM OF TWO INCHES OR TWICE, BASICALLY DOWN, RIGHT? IT'S JUST AIR SEPARATION. AIR BREAK IS LIKE, THEY'VE TAKEN A LET, LET'S JUST SAY A REDUCING COUPLING TWO TO FOUR INCH AND DRILLED THROUGH THE SIDE AND DUMPED INTO IT. THERE'S, IT'S BELOW THE OVERFLOW OF THE DRAIN ITSELF. SO THEY'RE PENETRATING THE DRAIN BELOW IT'S OVERFLOW. NOW YOU'VE GOT A CROSS CONNECTION. SO THAT'S THE ONLY THING THAT I SEE. OKAY. SO DO WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT WORD TO AIR GAP THEN, SINCE YOU'RE MODIFYING IT ANYWAY? WE'VE JUST PUT AIR GAP AND DO WE NEED TO GO BACK IN, IN THE I PC? DOES IT SAY GAP? IT DOES SAY GAP. OKAY. SO WE'RE JUST GONNA MAKE IT MATCH EXACTLY THEN. OKAY. OKAY. WE'LL WE WILL DO THAT. GOOD CATCH. THANKS, GEORGE. AND THAT WAS ITEM WHICH, WHICH ITEM WAS THAT? THAT WAS 2 37 LINE TWO OH ITEM. OKAY. ITEM. IT SAYS AIR GAP IN ANOTHER LOCATION. SCROLL DOWN. OR MAYBE IT WAS JUST THE IMC. OKAY. IT WAS JUST THE IMC LIST THEN. SO ON TWO. AWESOME. COREY, AROUND THAT LANGUAGE BEFORE WE CIRCLE. SURE, WE CAN DO THAT. I MEAN, WE, IF WE, IF WE WANNA LOOK AT THAT, THEN WE CAN JUST ADOPT THE IRC CHANGES AND, AND BE DONE WITH THAT. THAT WORKS. AND SCROLL UP TO THE ONE THAT WE JUST FIXED FOR. YES. OKAY. SO THIS MEETS THE INTENT OF WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WHERE IT'S EITHER, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUS ON THE INSIDE OR IT'S, UH, CLEARLY VISIBLE LOCATION NEAR AN EGRESS DOOR FOR AN EXTERIOR INSTALLATION. EVERYBODY GOOD WITH THIS LANGUAGE? IS THE CITY GOOD WITH THIS LANGUAGE? OBVIOUSLY TYPED IT, I'M ASSUMING. YES. RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. OKAY. SO WE'VE SEEN THAT THEN. WELL HERE, HERE'S WHAT WE WE'LL DO THEN. UM, FOR THE PROPOSED UPDATES TO THE IRC [01:20:01] IRC DASH M AND CHAPTER 10 AMENDMENTS. UM, FOR ITEM NUMBER 33, WE'VE RECOMMENDED, UH, AMENDING OUT, UH, M 1411 0.5, UH, ITEM NUMBER ONE, WE'VE UPDATED THE LANGUAGE ON NUMBER 34. UH, WE'VE STRICKEN M 1506 0.2 AND CHANGED THE WORDING ON ITEM NUMBER TWO IN THE LIST OF AMENDMENT FOR THE AMENDMENT IN ITEM 37 M 2002 0.1. UH, GIVEN THOSE CHANGES, I ACCEPT A MOTION TO, UM, ADOPT, UH, OR RECOMMEND TO THE FULL BOARD TO ADOPT, UH, THESE CHANGES. SO MOVED. COREY PALMER. THANKS COREY. CAN I GET A SECOND? SCOTT BERGER SECOND. THANKS SCOTT. UH, ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THOSE? ALL IN FAVOR SAY YES. YES, YES. ANY OPPOSED? SAY NO. ABSTENTIONS. OKAY. SO WE'VE ADOPTED THE IRC THINGS, I THINK WAS ITEM, WAS THAT THE ITEM NUMBER THREE ON THE AGENDA? OR FOUR? NUMBER FOUR. BUT WE'RE GOOD THERE. YEAH. OKAY. SO LET'S GO BACK TO ITEM NUMBER THREE AND REVIEW THE FINISH REVIEWING THE, UH, ITEMS 30 13, 22, 28, AND 29. UM, AND CRYSTAL, YOU WANNA START WITH 13 OR WHEREVER YOU WANNA START, FRANKLY. YES. SO WE CAN START WITH 13. SO THIS SECTION WAS REVISED FOR THE MAKEUP AIR TEMPERATURE IN COMMERCIAL KITCHENS. UM, SO THERE WAS ONGOING DISCUSSION FOR THIS ITEMS THAT SAY THAT THE, UM, THE HVAC SYSTEMS THAT SERVE THE KITCHEN SPACE SHALL HAVE THE ADDITIONAL CAPACITY NECESSARY FOR THE LATENT IN SENSIBLE LOADS THAT ARE INTRODUCED BY THE MAKEUP AIRS SUPPLIED TO THE KITCHEN SPACE, OR THE MAKEUP AIR SHALL BE CONDITIONED BY THE DEDICATED SYSTEMS SUCH THAT THE DIFFERENCE IN THE TEMPERATURE BETWEEN THE MAKEUP AIR SUPPLIED TO THE KITCHEN AND THE DESIGN SET POINT TEMPERATURE IN THE KITCHEN SPACE IS NOT GREATER THAN 10 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT. SO MY CRYPTIC NOTE TO MYSELF ON THIS WAS AMEND THIS OUT QUESTION MARK. SO, UM, I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER WHAT THE CONVERSATION WAS. I, I THINK THERE WAS SOME CONCERN THAT, UM, THAT THERE, THIS WAS A BIG COST ADD TO, UH, COMMERCIAL KITCHEN INSTALLATIONS HAD CONDITION AIR , UH, THIS IS COREY PALMER. YEAH. IF THEY HAD TO CONDITION THE AIR, THE MAKE AIR, THAT THAT WAS GONNA ADD A, A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT COST. SO JEFF BEYER WAS THE ONE THAT WAS DISCUSSING THIS. UM, I WANNA SAY HE KIND OF MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, IN HIS COMMENTS IT WAS IF THE RESTAURANT WANTS TO CONDITION IT FOR THEIR CHEFS, THEY HAVE THAT OPTION TO DO THAT. UM, YOU KNOW, DOES, IS THERE A REQUIREMENT FOR THAT? IS NOW WE'RE FORCING THEM, UH, TO DO THIS VERSUS MAKING IT AN OPTION? THAT WAS JEFF'S COMMENTS. SO I JUST WANNA PUT THAT ON THE RECORD SINCE HE WOULDN'T ABLE TO JOIN US FOR TODAY'S MEETING. AND I THINK PART OF THE CONCERN WAS THAT IF YOU'RE STANDING NEXT TO A 400 DEGREE OVEN, THAT YOU KNOW, WHAT, HOW, HOW EFFECTIVE IS THIS CONDITIONER THERE ANYWAY, I THINK WAS PART OF IT. NOW THAT YOU MENTIONED THAT ANYWAY, SCOTT, YOU HAD SOMETHING? YEAH, IT IS GONNA BE HOT. SO, UH, I, I, NO, I DON'T, I DON'T THINK, UH, I THINK WE OUGHT TO GO THERE TRYING TO KEEP IN WITHIN 10 DEGREES. THAT'S, WE'RE GONNA BE ADDING COSTS TO THESE RESTAURANTS. IT'S, IT'S GONNA BE OUTTA SIGHT. OKAY. SO WE HAVE THE 2021 LANGUAGE UP THERE THAT INCLUDES THAT THE CONDITION SPACE SHALL NOT EXCEED THE 10 DEGREES, UM, BETWEEN THE MAKEUP AIR AND THE CONDITION SPACE. SO JUST SHOWING WHAT, SHOWING YOU WHAT IS CURRENTLY ENFORCED, CURRENTLY ADOPTED AND ENFORCED. SO CHIEF CON, OR HOW DO YOU DETERMINE THAT WHEN YOU'RE REVIEWING THE PLAN? AND IF YOU'RE NOT REALLY LOOKING AT THAT AT ALL, WE SHOULD PROBABLY JUST TAKE IT OUT NOW. SO THE WAY, THIS IS, THE WAY THIS IS, UH, WHEN THE PLANTS COME IN, OKAY, THE ENGINEER OR THE ARCHITECT, WHOEVER'S DOING THE DESIGN, UM, THE, THE WAY, THE WAY THIS GETS DONE IS THAT THEY, WHEN THEY'RE DOING THE HEAT LOAD, YOU KNOW, THEY DETERMINE, OKAY, WE'RE GONNA HAVE THIS MUCH MAKEUP AIR COMING INTO THE KITCHEN BASED ON THE TABLES OR WHATEVER IS GONNA BE THIS DEGREES, THE AVERAGE DEGREES. SO THE, THE, THE TEMPERATURE IS BUILT INTO THE HEAT LOAD OF THE BUILDING OF THE KITCHEN. SO VERY RARE DO WE SEE A MAKEUP AIR BEING CONDITIONED JUST FOR THE KITCHEN. MOST OF THE TIME THAT, THAT THE TEMPERATURE DIFFERENTIAL IS, IS WORKED INTO THE HEAT LOAD [01:25:01] OF, OF THE KITCHEN. SO THE, IT WAS REVISED IN THE INTENT BASED ON, ON, ON HOW IT READS IT IS TO CLARIFY THE INTENT, WHICH WAS EITHER DESIGN THE HV SYSTEM FOR THE KITCHEN TO HANDLE THE MAKEUP AIR LOADS, WHICH THAT'S HOW THEY MOST OF THEM DO NOW. OR TO HAVE A DEDICATED MAKEUP CONDITIONING SYSTEM. SO WHERE, WHEN, WHEN WE HAVE A DEDICATED MAKEUP, AIR CONDITIONING SYSTEM IS, FOR EXAMPLE, IF IT'S A RESTAURANT THAT THEY WANNA EXPAND AND THEY'RE GONNA ADD ANOTHER HOOD, WHICH WAS NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL DESIGN. SO WHEN THEY'RE DOING THAT, THAT'S WHEN THIS KICKS IN WHERE LIKE, OKAY WAIT, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE AN ADDITIONAL LOAD COMING IN WITH MAKE UP AIR FROM THE OUTSIDE THAT THE AC WAS NOT INTENDED TO OR WASN'T DESIGNED TO HANDLE, BUT BECAUSE YOU ADDING MORE HEAT, NOW WE'RE REQUIRING YOU TO PUT, YOU KNOW, A CONDITION TO MAKE A AIR THAT THAT'S WHAT THIS IS TRYING TO PLAY INTO. UNLESS YOU HAVE A COMPENSATING HOOD. 'CAUSE THAT'S AN EXCEPTION, RIGHT? SO IF THEY HAVE THE HOOD THAT BLOWS THE AIR ON 'EM, IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE CONDITIONED. SO THAT'S KIND OF AN OUT FOR COST SAVINGS. YES. AND THAT EXCEPTION WASN'T PREVIOUSLY A PART OF THE 21 CODE. WHAT IS IT, CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT A COMPENSATING HOOD IS? IS THAT JUST AIR THAT SITS ON THE FRONT OF THE, OF THE EXHAUST FAN THAT BLOWS THE AIR RIGHT DOWN ON TOP OF THE PEOPLE AND GETS SUCKED RIGHT BACK OUT? DO WE HAVE THE COMPENSATING, IS IT STILL THERE? COMPENSATING HOOD SECTION? NO. YES. SO IF YOU LOOK AT THE DEFINITIONS, COMPENSATING HOODS, ARE THOSE HAVING INTEGRAL BUILT IN MAKEUP, AIR SUPPLY? SO BA BASICALLY IT'S, IT'S, IT'S PULLING AIR FROM THE OUTSIDE AND EXHAUSTING IT BACK UP ALL IN THE SAME MANUFACTURING. YES. CAN WE LOOK AT THE 2021 LANGUAGE AGAIN? SO AGAIN, THE, THE WRITING HERE, THE TEMPERATURE DIFFERENTIAL SHALL NOT EXCEED 10 DEGREES, EXCEPT WHERE THE ADDED HEATING, INCLUDING LOADS OF THE MAKEUP AIR, DO NOT EXCEED THE CAPACITY OF THE HVAC SYSTEM. SO IF THE ADDITIONAL LOAD DOESN'T EXCEED THE CAPACITY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT. THAT'S, THAT'S CORRECT. SO IF, IF THE SYSTEM WAS, SO, LEMME PUT IT THIS WAY. THEY DESIGN A, A, A KITCHEN THINKING, OKAY, THERE MIGHT BE A, A PHASE TWO WHERE WE MIGHT HAVE TO ADD ANOTHER HOOD. SO SOMETIMES THE, THE ENGINEERS DESIGNERS DESIGN A, AN AC SYSTEM THAT CAN HANDLE ADDITIONAL LOAD. SO IF THAT'S THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED, THEN THERE'S NOT AN ISSUE, YOU KNOW, BUT OH, WE'RE EXPANDING. I'M GONNA TAKE THE NEXT SUITE OVER, I'M GONNA KNOCK AT THE WALL AND EXPAND. I'M GONNA PUT ANOTHER, THE KITCHEN, WELL NOW YOU KNOW, THE DESIGN, THE, THE LOAD WILL NOT BE HANDLED. SO AT THAT POINT IS WHEN YOU REQUIRE THIS, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF COMPENSATING HOOTS OUT THERE, . AND I THINK MIKE, THE OTHER THING THAT I REMEMBER THAT HE RAISED IS THAT THE WAY THIS LANGUAGE IS NOW, IT'S THE TEMPERATURE IN THE CONDITION SPACE, WHICH MEANS IF THE KITCHEN IS 80 DEGREES, THE MAKEUP AIR CAN'T BE MORE THAN 90 DEGREES COMING IN VERSUS THE EXPLANATION WE GOT ON THE, WITH THE REVISIONS, IT'S, IT'S 10 DEGREES DIFFERENCE FROM WHATEVER THE THERMOSTAT IS SET AT, WHICH MEANS THAT IF IT'S SET AT 78 OR 70, IT WOULD NEED TO BE NO HIGHER THAN 80 DEGREES. AND I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE OTHER CLARIFYING CHANGES THAT GOT MADE. YEAH, I I, I DON'T KNOW, AFTER THAT EXPLANATION, I TEND TO THINK THAT, UM, THAT THIS ISN'T REALLY, I, I MEAN GRANTED I'M NOT A OBVIOUSLY TECHNICAL EXPERT, BUT THE BEFORE IT SAYS, BASED ON YOUR EXPLANATION CHIEF, IT SAID, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE EXCESS CAPACITY, THEN YOU HAVE TO DO, YOU KNOW, THE, THEN THIS APPLIES. AND SO THE EXCESS [01:30:01] CAPACITY ALREADY PROVIDES ENOUGH AIR IN THERE. AND SO WHAT WHAT WE'RE SAYING IN 2024 IS THAT YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO HAVE EXCESS CAPACITY OR YOU HAVE TO, UM, THE CONDITION TO MAKE UP AIR. SO BASICALLY WE'RE JUST TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S ENOUGH AIR COMING IN. UM, AND TO ME, UM, I DON'T, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT REQUIRING YOU TO CONDITION THE AIR. IT'S JUST SAYING THAT YOU'VE GOTTA BE PUMPING ENOUGH AIR IN THERE. AND SO THAT, THAT, THAT ACTUALLY CLARIFIES IT QUITE A BIT FOR, FOR ME AND, AND MAKES ME A LOT MORE COMFORTABLE FOR IT. AND CHIEF, UNLESS I'M TOTALLY MANGLING WHAT YOU, WHAT YOU JUST SAID, THAT'S PRETTY MUCH IT. THAT'S, YOU KNOW, I MEAN THERE, MOST OF THE HOODS NOWADAYS, THEY'RE COMPENSATING HOODS WHERE YOU, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALL ON THE SAME ONE, YOU KNOW, VERY RARE. DO YOU SEE WHERE YOU HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, IT, IT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT MAKEUP AIR UNIT BEING INSTALLED FOR, FOR A KITCHEN. SO YEAH, PRETTY MUCH THAT'S PRETTY MUCH IT. IT'S JUST, IT'S JUST, THIS HAS BEEN IN THE CODE FOR, FOR MANY CODE CYCLES. IT'S JUST TRYING TO CLARIFY A LITTLE BIT, BE MORE SPECIFIC AS TO WHAT THEY MEAN BY, YOU KNOW, 10 DEGREES, RIGHT? THERE'S A STANDARD CAPACITY THAT YOU NEED FOR A X BY X SIZE ROOM. BUT IF THAT ROOM'S GONNA BE A KITCHEN WITH SOME BIG HOT OVENS, THEN YOU NEED TO OVER MAKE THE CAPACITY OVER TO MAKE UP FOR THAT AIR. THIS, YOU KNOW, CLARIFIES THAT, BUT ALSO GIVES YOU AN EXCEPTION. IF YOU HAVE THIS TEMPERED AIR OR COMPENSATING AIR SYSTEM, THEN YOU'RE OKAY. 'CAUSE YOU'VE GOT THE EXTRA AIR BLOWING IN FROM A MECHANICAL MEANS. SO WE'RE REALLY NOT CHANGING ANYTHING HERE. IN FACT, IT'S ACTUALLY BETTER 'CAUSE IT GIVES YOU THAT EXCEPTION, UH, FOR THE TEMPERED AIR VENT CHIEF. BUT THE DESIGN SET POINT IS THAT WHATEVER THE THERMOSTAT IS SET AT, SO IF THEY, IF THEY, YOU WALK INTO THE KITCHEN AND THE THERMOSTAT IS SET, IT'S 60 DEGREES, THAT MEANS THE MAKEUP AIR HAS TO BE AT 70 DEGREES. CORRECT. YOU CAN SET THE THERMOSTAT OF 50 DEGREES, BUT IF THE THERMOSTAT IS READING 70, YOU KNOW THAT THEN THE MAKEUP AIR CAN'T, CAN'T BE, YOU KNOW, IT'LL END UP BEING WHAT, 80 OR WHATEVER IT IS. SO, SO CAN I, SO WHAT IS THE DES CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME, 'CAUSE I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE DESIGN SET POINT IS. TEMPERATURE, IS THAT A DEFINED TERM? I DON'T THINK SO. IS IT, SO THE PROPONENT SAID IN THE REASON STATEMENT THAT THAT IS THAT THERMOSTAT THERMOSTAT SET POINT IN THE TEMPERATURE. SO AT ANY, UM, THE THERMOSTAT SET POINT, WHICH MEANS WHATEVER THEY HAVE THE, IF THEY TURN THE THERMOSTAT DOWN TO 65 DEGREES TO KEEP THE AIR GOING ALL THE TIME, THE TEMPERATURE, MAXIMUM TEMPERATURE OUT OF THE VENT IF YOU CAME OUT AND INSPECTED SHOULD BE 75. YEAH. SO CAN I JUST RECOMMEND THAT WE JUST LEAVE EVERYTHING LIKE IT IS AND JUST STRIKE OUT THE DESIGN SET POINT AND JUST LEAVE IT KIND OF LIKE, IT WAS, THE AIR SUPPLY TO THE KITCHEN SPACE IS NOT GREATER THAN 10 DEGREES. OKAY. SO THE, OKAY, SO A LOT OF THESE PLACES, A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, COMMERCIAL PLACES, THE SET POINT, SO THE THERMOSTAT, YOU CAN PUSH DOWN WHATEVER YOU WANT, PUT IT DOWN TO 50. BUT THE SET POINT, WHOEVER'S MANAGING THAT, THEY CAN SET A POINT OF, LIKE, YOU CAN DROP IT DOWN TO 60 OR 50 DEGREES, BUT THE SET POINT IS 70. SO IN THE BACKGROUND IT'S SET AT 70, YOU CAN DROP IT DOWN TO WHATEVER, IT IS NOT GONNA CHANGE ANYTHING. SO IT'S THE, THE ONLY TIME THE, THE REASON THIS IS IN THE CODE BASED ON WHAT I'M, BECAUSE THERE'S SOME THINGS, LIKE YOU SAID, WE CANNOT ENFORCE. IF I GO IN THERE AND I SEE THE THERMOSTAT AT 60, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S EVEN WORKING, YOU KNOW, SO THERE'S FOR ME TO SEE IF THERE'S A, I'M NOT GONNA TAKE OUT A THERMOMETER AND START MEASURING TEMPERATURES EITHER. BUT THE REASON THIS IS IN THE CODE IS FOR MOSTLY FOR THE DESIGN. SO WHEN THEY COME IN, YOU KNOW, IT'S PART OF THE, YOU KNOW, IT'S PART OF THE, IT'S PART OF THE DESIGN. THEY'RE GONNA HAVE TO TAKE THIS INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN THEY'RE DOING HEAT LOADS FOR THE KITCHEN. SO AT THAT POINT IS WHEN IT'S BEING REVIEWED. YEAH. SO CAN, OR CAN WE ADD THE WORD NORMAL IN THE FRONT OF IT WHERE IT, WHERE IT'S, IT'S SPECIFIED. IN OTHER WORDS, 78 DEGREES, 88 DEGREES, THAT'S THE DESIGN STANDARD. BUT SO I THINK IT WOULD BE THE ENGINEER THAT'S SETTING THE DESIGN SET POINT. AND THAT'S WHEN WE WOULD LOOK AT IT IN REVIEW. LIKE JOE MENTIONED, WE'RE NOT GOING OUT THERE WITH THE, WITH THE THERMOMETER TO CHECK THE, THE EXISTING TEMPERATURE AT ANY GIVEN POINT IN THE MIDDLE OF A DINNER RUSH. RIGHT. IN A RESTAURANT. SO THE DESIGN SET POINT WOULD BE IDENTIFIED BY THE, UH, ENGINEER AT PLAN REVIEW AND THAT'S WHAT WE WOULD REVIEW AGAINST AND INSPECT FOR. YEAH. YEAH. 'CAUSE ISN'T [01:35:01] THAT LIKE A TYPICAL, LIKE, YOU KNOW, I'M TRYING TO RE REMEMBER BACK TO MY, UM, MECHANICAL CERTIFICATION TEST DAYS, LIKE THE DELTA T OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS A STANDARD KIND OF A STANDARD, UM, MEASUREMENT THAT AC TECHS USE? WELL, YEAH, I MEAN SOME OF THAT'S PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, COMMERCIAL AND RESIDENTIAL IS, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT, UH, COMMERCIAL'S PROBABLY AROUND THE 70, 72 MARK. BUT I THINK WE'RE CONFUSING DESIGN SET POINT FROM A THERMOSTAT SET POINT, A DESIGN SET POINT IS, IS DONE WHEN THE, WHEN THE ENGINEER WHEN DESIGNS THE SYSTEM, THEY'RE GONNA DESIGN BASICALLY ON AN AVERAGE OF A, A SET POINT A A SET TEMPERATURE OF AN OUTDOOR TEMPERATURE, SAY OF A HUNDRED DEGREES AND MAYBE INDOOR TEMPERATURE OF 75 DEGREES, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. NOW THEY'RE GONNA SET THAT THERE ARE, THEY ARE STANDARDS FOR THAT. ON RESIDENTIAL, ON COMMERCIAL PROBABLY HAS A LITTLE BIT MORE FLEXIBILITY. I DON'T THINK THERE'S A, A SET STANDARD ON COMMERCIAL KITCHENS ON, ON INDOOR TEMPERATURE SETTING. OKAY. SO ARE WE GOOD WITH THIS AS WRITTEN AND IS AND IS THAT DEFINITION IN THE CODE? YEAH, I MEAN IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A DEFINED TERM OF THE CODE, IF IT'S A COMMON, OKAY, I'M GOOD. I MEAN, AN INSPECTOR WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT THAT DESIGN SET POINT IS UNLESS HE GOT THE INFORMATION FROM THE ENGINEER. THERE'S NO WAY FOR HIM TO KNOW THAT. RIGHT. BUT I THINK A LOT OF THIS AGAIN GOES BACK TO THE PLAN REVIEW, RIGHT? BECAUSE SINCE I'M PRETTY SURE MY READING OF THIS IS, THIS IS ALL ABOUT DESIGN CAPACITY AND IF YOU HAVE MORE CAPACITY THAN THE ROOM CALLS FOR, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE DESIGN SET POINT OF THE THAT'S CORRECT. BECAUSE OF, BECAUSE THAT WORD OR IN THERE. UM, SO, OKAY. ALL RIGHT, GOOD. SO WE'RE GOOD WITH 13. WE'LL MOVE ON TO, SORRY, CRYSTAL 22. OKAY. THIS WAS THIS SECTION ABOUT CHANGING REFRIGERANT. WE WILL NAVIGATE TO THERE. NUMBER 22, THIS IS 1101 0.7. THESE ITEMS WERE INCLUDED IN THE 2021. THE WORDINGS A LITTLE DIFFERENT. SO RIGHT NOW IS THE 2021 LANGUAGE FOR CHANGE IN REFRIGERANT TYPE. SO HOW IS THE 2024 LANGUAGE BETTER THAN THE 2021 LANGUAGE HERE? IT'S JUST, IT'S A, IT'S A LOT MORE SPECIFIC. SO THE PREVIOUS LANGUAGE SAID THAT, UH, YOU CAN'T CHANGE IT WITHOUT PRIOR NOTIFICATION TO THE CODE OFFICIAL AND COMPLIANCE WITH THE APPLICABLE CODE PROVISIONS FOR THE NEW REFRIGERANT TYPE. SO THIS ONE JUST KIND OF OUTLINES THAT SAME IN, IN MY OPINION, THE SAME REQUIREMENTS THAT HEY, YOU HAVE TO NOTIFY THE CODE OFFICIAL. AND THEN I THINK NUMBER FOUR IS WHERE YOU HAVE TO COMPLY WITH ANY, THE NEW REFRIGERANT HAS TO COMPLY. WELL, NOT EVEN NEW REFRIGERANT WHERE YOU ACTUALLY CHANGE. SO THE 24 SAYS WHERE YOU CHANGE TO A DIFFERENT SAFETY GROUP, THEN YOU HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THE NEW REQUIREMENTS. BUT THE OLDER, BUT THE OLDER LANGUAGE BASICALLY EXEMPTED OUT 99.99% OF ALL FREON CHANGES BECAUSE OF THE SIZE REQUIREMENTS. CORRECT. FOR 30 POUNDS LANGUAGE. SO IT WOULD BE 30 POUNDS OF ANY, YEAH. SO ANYTHING EXCEPT A ONE, THERE'S VERY, I MEAN THERE'S REALLY NO SYSTEMS THAT ARE 30 POUNDS AND WE'RE BACK TO TALKING COMMERCIAL NOW, RIGHT? NOT, YES, THIS IS ALL COMMERCIAL FOR BIG, BIG, BIG SYSTEMS AND LITTLE AND REGULAR PACKAGE UNITS THAT ARE ON RETAIL BUILDINGS OR, UH, SPLIT SYSTEMS IN A, THAT WOULDN'T APPLY, WOULD IT? I MEAN, MOST OF THOSE ARE THE SAME, PRETTY CLOSE TO THE SAME AS RESIDENTIAL. IS THAT, WOULD THAT BE CORRECT? HOW MANY TIMES WOULD YOU HAVE TO GO TO GET TO 30 POUNDS OF FREEDOM? IT, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT. WE, WE, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE THAT. IT JUST DEPENDS ON THE LOCATION. UH, YOU KNOW, FIVE STORIES HIGH, SIX STORIES HIGH. IT REQUIRES MORE REFRIGERANT. I MEAN, IT JUST DEPENDS. [01:40:01] IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE THAT. THE, SO THE, BECAUSE OF THE NEW GUIDANCE FOR THE A TWO L REFRIGERANT, THAT'S, I, THIS IS WHY THIS GOT MORE EXTENSIVE. IT WAS THERE BEFORE, BUT YOU SEE MOST OF THE EXISTING EQUIPMENT, THERE'S GOTTA, I'M NOT SURE AS FAR AS, BECAUSE AGAIN, IT'S FAIRLY NEW, RIGHT? SO WHAT THEY'RE PUTTING THIS IN HERE, I'M, I'M, WHAT I'M LOOKING AT IS I'M THINKING INDUSTRIAL, LARGE WALK-IN FREEZERS, WALK-IN COOLERS, YOU KNOW, UH, YOU KNOW, WAREHOUSES TYPE DEAL WHERE THEY'RE GONNA, IT'S VERY, IT IS NOT GONNA BE COST EFFECTIVE TO CHANGE OUT THE ENTIRE SYSTEM TO THE NEW REFRIGERANT. SO THEY'RE GONNA FIND A WAY TO, YOU KNOW, BE ABLE TO CHANGE OUT THE REFRIGERANT. AND SO BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF QUANTITIES OF REFRIGERANT THAT THEY'RE GONNA BE USING, I THINK THAT THIS IS WHERE THIS COMES IN, WHERE IF YOU'RE GONNA BE DOING THIS AND THAT, THEN YOU KNOW, YOU NEED TO, BECAUSE IF YOU'RE MAKING ANY TYPES OF CHANGES TO THE NEW REFRIGERANT, THERE'S CERTAIN GUIDELINES LIKE RELEASE VALVES, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO HAVE CUTOFFS, DIFFERENT THINGS THAT IT'S JUST, IT'S ALREADY THERE. IT IS JUST THAT WE'VE NEVER HAD TO, I GUESS, DEAL WITH IT. BUT NOW THAT WE HAVE THE NEW REFRIGERANT, WE'RE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU CHANGE IT OUT TO THIS, THEN WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO LOOK AT RELIEF VALVES, YOU KNOW, CUTOFF VALVES, YOU KNOW, UH, GAUGES AND STUFF LIKE THAT. IT'S GONNA BE PUT IN THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. SO I THINK WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY IS THAT WHEN YOU'RE GONNA DO THIS, YOU NEED TO LET THE CITY SAYING, HEY, WE'RE GONNA SWITCH OVER TO THIS NEW TYPE OF REFRIGERANT AND WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO INSTALL VALVES AND ALL OF THIS STUFF. THAT IS PART OF THE REQUIREMENT I, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE INTENT IS. SO MY QUESTION IS, IS LET'S SAY FOUR 10 A AND THEY COME UP WITH A NEW REPLACEMENT REFRIGERANT FOR FOUR 10 A THAT HAS A DIFFERENT NUMBER. YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS WHOLE SHEBANG. THAT'S ONLY IF IT CHANGES CLASSIFICATION, CORRECT? YEAH. SO IF YOU HAVE AN A ONE IN THE SYSTEM NOW AND YOU'RE MOVING TO A TWO L, WHICH WILL BE A LOT OF PLACES, WE UNDERSTAND THAT THAT'S GONNA BE, SO YOU WILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS, BUT IF WE KIND OF, YOU KNOW, CIRCLE BACK TO WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, WE HAD TWO SECTIONS THAT WE HAD CONCERNS WITH ON THIS LAST WEEK. I THINK NUMBER ONE, EVERYBODY'S GOOD WITH, YOU KNOW, CONTRACTOR SHOULD TALK TO THE OWNER AND BE LIKE, HEY, WE'RE GONNA SWAP THIS AROUND. IS THAT OKAY? THAT, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY HAS A LOT OF HOLD, HOLD UP ON THAT ONE. THE SECOND ONE WAS A LOT OF CONCERN BECAUSE OF 2.3 APPROVED BY THE CODE OFFICIAL, BUT ONCE AGAIN, IF THE ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT MANUFACTURER, SO IF YOU'RE UNDER WARRANTY, YOU WEREN'T GONNA BE DOING ANYTHING THAT THE ORIGINAL MANUFACTURER WILL TELL YOU, YES, YOU CAN DO THAT. YOU CAN GO FROM THIS REFRIGERANT TO THAT. SO THAT COVERS A LOT OF THAT. NOW I UNDERSTAND MR. RU'S CONCERN OF WHAT ABOUT THINGS THAT AREN'T UNDER WARRANTY. I GOT A LOT OF OLD SYSTEMS OUT THERE. THAT'S WHERE 2.2 SHOULD COVER MOST OF THAT, WHERE AN APPROVED AGENCY, SO THIS WOULD BE ANYBODY THAT KIND OF ANALYZES THOSE REFRIGERANTS AND WILL GIVE THEM A REPORT SAYING, YES, THIS REFRIGERANT IS EQUIVALENT TO THAT REFRIGERANT. YOU CAN DO THAT. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE MANUFACTURERS, IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO BE THE MANUFACTURER OF THAT REFRIGERANT. IT'S JUST SOMEBODY, SOMEBODY'S LOOKED AT THAT AND SAID, YES, YOU CAN REMOVE FOUR 10 AND PUT IN R 35 IN THIS SYSTEM, YOU'RE GOOD TO GO. OR, OR YOU MAY NOT EVEN DESIGN IT BY THAT SYSTEM. THEY CAN JUST SAY, LOOK, THIS IS AN EQUIVALENT. ANY SYSTEM ACROSS THE BOARD THAT HAS THIS TYPE OF REFRIGERANT, YOU CAN USE THIS ONE. IT'S ONLY WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE EITHER THE MANUFACTURER OR THE MAIN R SOME APPROVED AGENCY AND IT'S NOT APPROVED AGENCY BY THE DST JUST APPROVED AGENCY, WHICH IS A DEFINED TERM THAT KINDA LOOKS AT LIKE TESTING AGENCIES, THINGS SUCH AS THAT, UH, THAT ARE PRETTY STANDARD, UH, ACROSS THE BOARD FOR ALL PRODUCTS. THEN, THEN YOU COME TO THE HJ AND BE LIKE, HEY, YOU KNOW WHAT? WE GOT THIS PRODUCT, WE GOT THIS PRODUCT, WE WANT TO SWAP THIS OUT. DO WE REALLY HAVE A LOT OF, I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE WOULD DO AT THAT POINT, LIKE, HEY, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING. THERE'S, THERE'S SOMETHING OUT THERE. WE GOTTA FIND A SOLUTION THAT'S GONNA BE A LITTLE BIT OF A CHALLENGING, BUT IT MAKES SENSE TO KIND OF BRING US IN AND JUST SAY, HEY, WHAT DO WE WANNA DO? BUT I, I CAN'T THINK OF A SCENARIO WHERE ANY MANUFAC OR INSTALLER WOULD SAY, LOOK, I I CAN'T FIND A REFRIGERANT THAT WOULD BE APPROVED BY ANOTHER AGENCY THAT, YOU KNOW, THE HOMEOWNER OR THAT THE BOATING OWNER WOULD SAY, YEAH, I'M STILL OKAY WITH THAT. YOU KNOW, ONCE AGAIN, THEY STILL GOTTA CHECK OFF ITEM NUMBER ONE. SO I FEEL LIKE 99.9% OF THE SCENARIOS OF REFRIGERANT CHANGEOUTS ARE COVERED BY ONE. UH, 2.1. AND 2.2 IS, IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A, A REFRIGERANT CLASSIFICATION AND A REFRIGERANT DESIGNATION? IS THAT BASICALLY, ARE THOSE TERMS INTERCHANGEABLE FOR CLASSIFICATION? DOES IT SAY SAFETY GROUP CLASSIFICATION? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT? NO, IT SAYS A DIFFERENT DIFFERENT REGISTRATION DESIGNATION. SO IN YOUR CASE WE'RE, I'M GOING ART FOUR 10 TO THE REPLACEMENT FREON, IT'S STILL WITHIN THE SAME REFRIGERANT DESIGNATION, SO THIS WOULDN'T EVEN APPLY. [01:45:01] THAT'S CORRECT. OKAY. YEAH, CORRECT. YEAH. I'M SORRY IF, IF IT'S, YOU CURRENTLY HAVE AN A TWO L AND YOU'RE SWAPPING OUT FOR AN A TWO L, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY HAS ANY CONCERNS. IF YOU'RE IN THE R 22 AND YOU'RE GOING WITH ONE OF THE R 22 REPLACEMENTS, THIS DOESN'T APPLY EITHER. THIS ONLY APPLIES WHEN YOU'RE GOING FROM OLD, OLD FREON TO THE NEW PROPANES KIND OF STUFF. A CHANGE. I WOULD SAY THAT THREE AND FOUR IS WHEN IT WOULD NOT APPLY, OR ACTUALLY TECHNICALLY FOUR. SO AS LONG IF, IF YOU STAY WITHIN THE SAME SAFETY GROUP, YOU, I THINK IF YOU'RE CHANGING THE REFRIGERANT, YOU STILL JUST NEED THE OWNER TO APPROVE IT AND THE MANUFACTURER TO APPROVE IT AND ARE SOME LEVEL TO SAY, YES, THIS IS GOOD. BUT I THINK IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN YOU'RE THERE. BUT, BUT IT DOES SPECIFICALLY SAY IF YOU'RE CHANGING THAT REFRIGERANT WITH A DIFFERENT REFRIGERANT DESIGNATION. SO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. YES. AND SO WHAT SAFETY CLA SAFETY GROUP CLASSIFICATION IS A ONE VERSUS A TWO L? CORRECT. DESIGNATION IS THE NAME THE REFRIGERANT, CORRECT? YES, EXACTLY. YEAH. SO REALLY SUB SAFETY GROUP IS ONLY ITEM NUMBER FOUR. SO THE OTHER ONES HAVE TO BE FOLLOWED FOR JUST CHANGING THE TYPE OF REFRIGERANT. BUT ONCE AGAIN, THAT 2.3 APPROVED BY THE CODE OFFICIAL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT SCENARIO WOULD THAT WOULD EVER COME UP. THAT'S REALLY KINDA SAYING, I HAD THIS REFRIGERANT AND I CAN'T FIND ANYBODY SAYING, YES, THE REFRIGERANT THAT'S IN THERE NOW CAN BE REPLACED BY THIS REFRIGERANT, UM, THROUGH SOME, I WOULD ASSUME THE, IN THE MANUFACTURERS OF THAT REFRIGERANT THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO ADD INTO THE SYSTEM NOW HAS DONE THE DUE DILIGENCE TO SAY, HEY, HERE'S ALL THE REFRIGE AGENTS THIS CAN BE USED FOR IF IT'S JUST AN INSTALLER GRABBING SOME REFRIGERANT. IT'S LIKE, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS CAN BE USED FOR THAT OR NOT. IT DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE. I DON'T THINK THAT'S GONNA BE A SCENARIO YOU'RE GONNA SEE OUT THERE FOR MOST REPUTABLE COMPANIES. DO, DO WE REALLY WANT THAT, UH, RESPONSIBILITY ON THE COLD OFFICIAL TO, TO APPROVE SOMETHING LIKE THAT. IF THERE'S 99.9% OF THE STUFF IS ALREADY COVERED AND THERE'S JUST THIS ONE OUTLIER OUT THERE, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD'VE TO COME UP WITH SOME JUSTIFICATION. IT WOULDN'T JUST BE, HEY, I WANNA DO THIS AND WE GIVE YOU A THUMBS UP. IT WOULD BE, OKAY, WELL WHAT, WHAT INFORMATION DO YOU HAVE? AND WE CAN EVALUATE THAT. UM, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT GONNA LOOK AT TEST REPORTS, BUT MAYBE AN MSDS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT WE CAN KIND OF LOOK AT AND ANALYZE AND, UM, I JUST, IF IT'S NOT THERE, THEN YOU HAVE NO OPTION, RIGHT? IF YOU DON'T HAVE ONE OR TWO, THEN YOU CAN'T DO IT, PERIOD. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ONE OR TWO, BUT YOU'D STILL WANNA TRY TO DO IT, YOU CAN REACH OUT TO THE COURT OFFICIAL, THE COURT OFFICIAL CAN LOOK AT IT WITH YOU AND SAY, YEAH, THAT'S FINE. WE CAN GO AHEAD AND DO THAT OR NOT. SO JUST TO CLARIFY, IF I'M CHANGING FROM OUR FOUR 10 A TO A R FOUR 10, A ALTERNATIVE NAMED OR DESIGNATED WHATEVER, DO I HAVE TO DO THIS? WELL, BY DOING THIS, REALLY ALL YOU'RE DOING IS YOU'RE JUST CHECKING THE MSDS OF THAT OR THAT PRODUCT SHEET OF THE NEW REFRIGERANT AND SAYING YES, IT MEETS IT CAN BE REPLACED. SO BEFORE, BEFORE THIS HAS PASSED, IF I WAS GONNA CHANGE SOMETHING TO R FOUR 10 A TO AN R FOUR 10, A ALTERNATIVE, WHAT WOULD BE THE PROCESS? CAN WE GO BACK TO, YOU JUST HAVE TO FOLLOW THE, THE INSTRUCTION INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS. SO I'D FOLLOW THE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS. SO, BUT WITH THIS CHANGE, IF I WANTED TO DO THAT, I'D HAVE TO GET WRITTEN PERMISSION FROM THE OWNER TO, UM, MENTION IT AND GET, MAKE SURE THAT IT'S APPROVED BY THE CODE OFFICIAL, ALL THESE THINGS. RIGHT? WELL, THE CODE OFFICIAL, ONCE AGAIN, I THINK WOULD PROBABLY BE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT SCENARIO THAT WOULD HAPPEN. I DON'T, I DON'T ANTICIPATE THAT THE CODE OFFICIAL WOULD SAY NO, BUT WE WENT FROM JUST DOING IT TO PER MANUFACTURER INSTRUCTIONS TO HAVING TO GET ALL THESE PERMISSIONS AND, AND THIS ADMINISTRATIVE 2.2 WOULD EXEMPT YOU OUT FROM HAVING TO DO THAT BECAUSE IT'S THE REPLACEMENT FREON. THE BIGGER, THE BIGGER PROBLEM COMES IN IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO WHEN, YOU KNOW, THE AIR CONDITIONING COMPANY IS CALLED OUT TO FIX IN A RESIDENTIAL RENTAL UNIT AT SIX O'CLOCK AT NIGHT, UH, FIX THE TENANT'S AIR CONDITION AND THE OWNER'S NOT AVAILABLE. THEY'RE GONNA HAVE TO CALL AND GET PERMISSION TO SWITCH FROM OUR, YOU KNOW, FOUR 10 A TO THE REPLACEMENT FON BEFORE THEY CAN MAKE THE INSTALL, YOU KNOW, REPAIR THE AIR CONDITION. THIS IS CORY PALMER. UM, THE WAY I'M READING NUMBER ONE, IT DOESN'T APPEAR TO SUGGEST THAT YOU HAVE TO GET PERMISSION FROM THE OWNER, BUT JUST THAT YOU HAVE TO NOTIFY THE OWNER PRIOR TO MAKING THAT REFRIGERANT CHANGE. RIGHT. WELL, I I SAY THAT JUST BECAUSE IT'S ON, IT'S UNENFORCEABLE WITHOUT SOMETHING IN WRITING. RIGHT. THAT'S MY POINT. CAN WE GO BACK CRYSTAL TO THE 2021 REAL FAST? THE OLD LANGUAGE BASICALLY EXEMPTS OUT EVERYTHING BECAUSE IT, AT LEAST IN MOST RESIDENTIAL APPLICATIONS, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT PUTTING 30 POUNDS OF FREE ON IT. I MEAN, I GUESS I WOULD READ ITEM NUMBER ONE FOR THE 20 24, 1 WOULD BE A ONE IS R 22 OR R FOUR 10 A YES. SO YOU'D HAVE TO PUT IN 220 POUNDS OF FON BEFORE THIS WOULD TRIGGER IN AN A ONE GROUP. A ONE, WHICH BASICALLY THERE'S NOT [01:50:01] A RESIDENTIAL SYSTEM. I DON'T THINK THAT USES 220 POUNDS. THIS IS, THIS IS COMMERCIAL THOUGH, CORRECT? THIS COMMERCIAL, BUT IT WOULD ALSO APPLY TO MULTIFAMILY AND, YOU KNOW, SO I MEAN, YEAH, I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND THE INTENT. I I I SEE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. WE'RE MORE CONCERNED WITH A RESIDENTIAL IN THE SENSE OF WE WANNA PROTECT HOMEOWNERS FROM A FLY BY NIGHT COMPANY THAT MAY BE REGISTERED IN, IN, IN LICENSE. WE STILL SEE THERE'S SOME BAD CONTRACTORS OUT THERE THAT WOULD COME IN AND JUST SWAP OUT THE REFRIGERANT. AND I'M NOT EVEN SURE IF A HOMEOWNER WOULD REALLY KNOW ON A COMMERCIAL PROPERTY. YOU KNOW, THAT'S KIND OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO VET YOUR, YOU KNOW, WE, WE ARE MORE LAX WHEN IT COMES TO COMMERCIAL PROPERTIES AS IT IS WITH CONTRACTORS NOT HAVING TO BE REGISTERED FOR GENERAL CONTRACTING, UH, PERMITS. SO I, I SEE THAT DIFFERENCE. WELL, AND, AND IN THE CASE WHERE THE TENANT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MAINTAINING THE AIR CONDITIONER AND THE OWNER'S NOT EVEN INVOLVED IN THAT PROCESS, YOU WOULD HAVE TO O THE WAY THE LANGUAGE IS WRITTEN, YOU'D HAVE TO GET AHOLD OF THE OWNER BEFORE YOU CAN MAKE THAT CHANGE. I, I, I THINK IF IT'S WITHIN THE SAME SAFETY GROUP AND YOU'RE JUST USING THE REPLACEMENT FREON, WHICH YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE BECAUSE THE EPA SAYS THAT'S WHAT YOU GOTTA USE IT, WE SHOULD JUST WAIVE THAT REQUIREMENT. YEAH, I MEAN, IF YOU DON'T WANNA MAKE THAT ACTION, I WOULD PROBABLY STILL BRING IT UP AT THE BOARD MEETING AND HAVE BOMA, YOU KNOW, Y'ALL ARE PART OF THE PROPERTY OWNERS OF THIS BOARD. SO, YOU KNOW, THE, I LOOK AT THOSE AS AT ITEM NUMBER ONE AS A SAFETY, YOU KNOW, AS A PROPERTY OWNER SAFEGUARD THAT YOU'RE BEING AWARE THAT SOMEBODY'S SWAPPING OUT THE TYPE OF REFRIGERANT, YOU KNOW, IT COULDN'T VOID YOUR WARRANTY. YOU KNOW, IF THAT INSTALLER WALKS AWAY, YOU'RE THE ONE THAT'S LEFT WITH THE EQUIPMENT THAT HAS BEEN DAMAGED BECAUSE OF THE CHANGE IN REFRIGERANTS, JUST BECAUSE, AND THE REASON THEY'RE ADDING ALL THIS, IT SEEMS TO BE BECAUSE YEAH, THERE'S A LOT OF NEW STUFF OUT HERE NOW WHERE IT USED TO BE EVERYBODY RAN WITH THE SAME REFRIGERANT AND NEVER HAD ALL THESE VARIANTS THAT ARE COMING OUT THERE. NOW, EACH SYSTEM'S TOTALLY DIFFERENT, REQUIRES A SPECIFIC, YOU KNOW, TYPE OF REFRIGERANT. SO THE CODES ARE PROBABLY JUST SAYING, LOOK, LET'S PUT SOME SAFEGUARDS IN THERE FOR THE OWNERS. BUT IF THE OWNERS ON THE BOARD KINDA SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT? WE DON'T NEED THAT SAFEGUARD, I, THAT'S FINE. I MEAN, JEREMY, I DON'T, I DON'T DISAGREE WITH YOU AS A, AS A, A PROPERTY OWNER, I, I CALL TO GET SOMETHING DONE, I ASSUME A, THEY'RE GONNA PULL THE PERMIT, RIGHT? . UM, AND WE DON'T GET IN THE, WE DON'T GET IN STRIKE TEAM JAIL. UM, I, AND, AND I WANNA KNOW WHAT THE DOWNSTREAM EFFECTS ARE. I THINK THAT'S ESPECIALLY TRUE WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IF I CHANGE THIS FROM AN A ONE TO AN A TWO L, I'M NOT JUST CHANGING REFRIGERANT, I'M COMMITTING YOU TO A WHOLE SLEW OF COSTS INCREASES. AND I'M TALKING IN THE COMMERCIAL REALM HERE, RIGHT? UM, AND SO YEAH, I, I WANNA KNOW THAT I, I AGREE WITH YOU ON, ON THAT. UH, MY CONCERN IS THAT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING R FOUR 10 A TO AN ALL FOUR R FOUR 10 A ALTERNATIVE, WE'RE INTRODUCING A LOT OF, UM, ADMINISTRATIVE BURDEN WHEN IT'S NOT REALLY IMPORTANT. YOU KNOW? SO THAT, THAT'S WHY I THINK, MARK, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT IF IT'S A SAFETY CLASSIFICATION, YEAH, THIS SHOULD ALL APPLY. BUT IF YOU'RE JUST DOING A, YOU KNOW, A STANDARD APPROVED ALTERNATIVE, YOU KNOW, FOUR 10 A 'CAUSE, YOU KNOW, FOUR 10 A IS GONNA BECOME MORE SCARCE, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. UM, I, I DON'T, I DON'T, I THINK YOU PROBABLY HAVE OTHER THINGS TO DO IN THE CITY THAN THAT MESS WITH ALL THESE TOO. GREAT. SO LET, LET ME, LET ME, LET ME KIND OF EXPLAIN A LITTLE BIT WHAT'S GOING ON. R 22, THERE'S SEVERAL REPLACEMENTS FOR R 22. SO IT'S NOT LIKE, WELL, I'M GONNA PUT FOUR 10 A AND THE REPLACEMENT FOR A WILL BE 14 B, IT COULD BE R 38 4, IT COULD BE 4 0 9, IT COULD BE A DIFFERENT THING. SO EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE IN THE SAME, YOU KNOW, GROUP, THERE'S, THERE'S DIFFERENT CHEMICALS INVOLVED. SO FOR EXAMPLE, NOW THAT WE'RE GOING TO A TO L, IT'S NOT AT STANDARD REFRIGERANT. WHAT THAT MEANS IS WE WENT FROM R 22 TO 14 A, AND THAT WAS THE STANDARD ACROSS THE BOARD. NOW, BECAUSE THE WAY IT'S WRITTEN, EACH MANUFACTURER CAN USE THEIR OWN TYPE OF REFRIGERANT. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE R 38. IT COULD BE DIFFERENT NUMBERS. IT COULD BE DIFFERENT. SO WHAT THEY'RE ASKING, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE IN THE SAME GROUP, IT MIGHT BE A DIFFERENT TYPE OF REFRIGERANT, NOT 14 EIGHT, IT COULD BE R 37 OR WHATEVER IT IS. SO THEY'RE TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT IF YOU'RE GONNA SWITCH, YOU KNOW, CLASSIFICATIONS, YOU'RE GOING FROM 14 EIGHT TO A TWO L SYSTEMS, THEN YOU NEED TO LET THE HOMEOWNER KNOW. AT THE SAME TIME, IF YOU HAVE AN A TWO L SYSTEM, THAT THAT'S NOT A TYPE OF, THAT'S JUST WHAT'S IN THE REFRIGERANT, BUT THERE'S LIKE FOUR OR FIVE DIFFERENT TYPES OF A TWO L REFRIGERANTS, AND IT, IT'S GONNA BE BASED ON THE MANUFACTURER. THE, THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT GONNA TELL YOU YOU'RE GONNA USE 14 A. THEY'RE GONNA TELL YOU YOU HAVE TO USE A TWO L TYPE [01:55:01] OF REFRIGERANTS, AND DIFFERENT BRANDS ARE GOING TO, THEY PICK THEIR OWN REFRIGERANTS. SO MY REFRIGERANT IS NOT GONNA, IF I HAVE FOR EXAMPLE, A B, C BRAND AND I'M GONNA BE SELLING MY A, B, C BRAND IS GONNA USE THIS TYPE OF RR 38, RIGHT? WELL, A, A BRAND 1, 2, 3, WELL, I'M NOT GONNA USE R 38, I'M GONNA USE, YOU KNOW, UH, 34. AND SO THEY WANNA MAKE SURE THAT EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE IN THE SAME GROUP, THAT YOU LET THE HOMEOWNER KNOW THAT, HEY, WE, THIS IS, WE ARE NOT, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT MIX THE REFRIGERANTS. SO I THINK IT, IT'S TRYING TO COVER BOTH. YEAH, IF YOU'RE SWITCHING OR YOU KNOW, IF YOU, IF YOU REPLACING OR YOU'RE SWITCHING, BUT YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO TELL, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU HAVE, RIGHT? I MEAN, THE A TWO L THING JUST GETS WORSE AND WORSE. SO LIKE THEY IT JUST, EVERY TIME SOMEBODY TALKS ABOUT IT, IT'S WORSE THAN IT WAS BEFORE. UM, BUT, BUT AGAIN, I, I THINK THAT THAT'S NOT THE CASE WITH THE, WITH THE FOUR 10 A AND THE R 20 TWOS, RIGHT? SO CAN WE JUST ADD AN EXEMPTION THAT SAYS, EXCEPT IN A ONE SYSTEMS. THIS DOESN'T APPLY IN A ONE SYSTEMS 'CAUSE I DON'T, I DON'T THINK ANY OF THIS IS IMPORTANT IN THE A ONE, THE IT, ALL THOSE UNITS WERE PRETTY MUCH EXEMPTED OUT TO BEGIN WITH. AND SO I THINK WHERE IT BECOMES IMPORTANT IS WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE SWITCHING SOMEBODY FROM SOMETHING THAT'S EASY TO, SOMETHING THAT'S MORE DANGEROUS. EVEN A ONES HAVE DIFFERENT TYPE OF REPLACEMENTS. SO, YOU KNOW, R 22 HAD, I THINK IT WAS THREE DIFFERENT REPLACEMENTS, RIGHT? MP 99, UH, 4 0 7, UH, THERE WAS OTHER TYPES OF REPLACEMENT FOR IT. SO I MEAN, EVEN IF IT'S IN THE SAME CLASSIFICATION, LIKE A ONES, IF YOU'RE SWITCHING OVER, YOU NEED TO LET SOMEBODY KNOW, I MEAN, TECHNICALLY YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO IDENTIFY IT, PUT A STICKER ON IT SAYING WE SWITCH THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO. BUT WHAT THIS IS SAYING IS LIKE, IN ADDITION TO THAT, YOU SHOULD LET THE OWNER KNOW THAT YOU SWITCHED THE SYSTEM, YOU KNOW, TO WHATEVER. OR WHAT I'VE RAN INTO ALSO THAT I'VE SEEN, I SEE SEVERAL, SEVERAL STICKERS. I'M LIKE, BUT WHAT HAPPENED HERE SAYS, WELL I HAD A LEAK AND THE TECHNICIAN ONLY HAD MP 99, SO HE PUT MP 99, NOW I HAVE ANOTHER LEAK. THIS GUY COMES OVER, HE DOESN'T HAVE THAT. SO HE PUT ANOTHER STICKER 'CAUSE HE SWITCHED IT OVER AGAIN. THAT, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS. NOW, MOST OF THE, UH, CONTRACTORS OUT THERE NOW, IF THEY'RE GONNA DO A DROP IN REPLACEMENT IS WHAT WE CALL IT. TYPICALLY INSIDE THE PANEL WILL MAKE A A, A NOTATION OF WHAT WE'RE PUTTING IN THERE. THE SOMEBODY THAT FOLLOWS UP BEHIND US MAY NOT CARRY THAT SAME DROP IN REPLACEMENT AT THAT POINT. THEY NEED TO REMOVE THE REFRIGERANT THAT'S IN THERE AND START ALL OVER AGAIN. AND REMARKET, I DON'T THINK THAT WAS REALLY A CODE THING, BUT IT WAS KIND OF A STANDARD THING THAT WE DID. SO WE, THE NEXT TECHNICIAN THAT WENT OUT THERE KNEW WHAT WAS IN THAT SYSTEM. YEAH. AND THAT, AND THAT MAKES SENSE. BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'VE UP AND THROUGH 2021 CODE, WE HAVEN'T HAD TO DO ALL THOSE FOR THOSE REPLACEMENTS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. RIGHT. AND SO I, I DON'T KNOW THAT THIS MAKES IT ANY BETTER FOR THOSE A ONE REPLACEMENTS, RIGHT? THOSE THINGS ARE STILL GONNA HAPPEN. REPUTABLE CARRIERS AND EVEN IRRE REPUTABLE ONES. I MEAN THAT, THAT THE MARKET WILL CATCH UP TO 'EM. BUT WHAT WE'RE DOING IS INTRODUCING A LOT OF BUREAUCRACY FOR SOMETHING THAT TO THIS POINT HAS BEEN DONE ROUTINELY WITHOUT SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM FOR THE, FOR, FOR THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO FOR ITS CITIZENS. NOW I UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, THE, THE POWERS THAT BE HAVE DECIDED TO, TO MAKE A VERY DANGEROUS REPLACEMENT THAT WE ALL HAVE TO PUT IN OUR HOMES AND, UH, BUSINESSES. AND WE'RE GONNA, THERE'S OTHER THINGS THAT HAVE TO BE DONE TO COMPENSATE FOR THAT. AND I GET ALL THESE CHANGES FOR A TWO LS, BUT SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN DONE FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS WITH OUR 22 REPLACEMENTS. NOW OUR FOUR 10 A REPLACEMENTS THAT WE'VE HAD FOR A WHILE, I, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE, WE WOULD INTRODUCE THIS FOR, FOR SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING FOR YEARS AND YEARS WITH NO PROBLEM. SO MARK, GOING BACK TO YOUR RECOMMENDATION, WOULD THIS BE A, AN EXEMPTION FROM A ONE TO A ONE AND, AND THEN, BUT I ALSO, BUT EVERYTHING THAT WE TALKED ABOUT HAVING A STICKER ON IT, THAT NONE OF THIS APPLY REALLY SAYS ANY OF THAT. CORRECT? YEAH. NO, THAT, THAT'S AN OWNER, THAT'S INDUSTRY OWNER. I GUARANTEE YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU POLL A HUNDRED PEOPLE IN SAN ANTONIO, PROBABLY ONE OUT OF A HUNDRED WILL KNOW WHAT KIND OF FREON THEY HAVE IN THEIR SYSTEM. SO NOTIFYING THE OWNER IN THOSE CASES REALLY DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. SO I'M JUST SUGGESTING IF, IF YOUR EXEMPTION, IF THE CHANGE OF FREON IS A ONE TO A ONE AND IT'S LESS THAN WHATEVER THE LANGUAGE WAS IN THE, THE 30 POUNDS FROM THE 20, WELL I THINK IT'S TWO 20 OF A ONE OR 30 POUNDS OF OTHER FON THAT YOU'RE JUST EXEMPT. SO EXEMPT OUT 1101 0.7 EXCEPTION EXEMPTION WOULD [02:00:01] BE WHEN REPLACING, UM, REFRIGERANT CLASSIFICATION OR SAFETY GROUP FROM A ONE TO AN A ONE. NO, THAT'S YOUR EXCEPTION. TWO 20 POUNDS. UH, BY OH FOR UP TO 220 POUNDS. YEAH, THAT WOULD BE MY SUGGESTION BECAUSE I JUST, I THINK THAT'S A, THE OWNER OF THE HOUSE IS NOT GONNA UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE OF FREON CHANGES WITHIN THE SAME GROUP. I MEAN, DOES YOUR TECHNICIAN NOW GO EXPLAIN THAT THEY'RE CHANGING OUT ONE? I MEAN THEY TALK ABOUT WHAT IT'S GONNA COST. WELL, MARK, I WOULD SAY THAT, THAT IF THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND, THAT'D BE A REASON TO KEEP US IN THERE, RIGHT? I MEAN, 'CAUSE WE WANNA PROTECT THE PUBLIC. I WOULD SAY THAT THEY DON'T EXPLAIN IT. 'CAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER . UM, AND THAT'S MORE TO ME TO THE POINT IN TERMS OF SAFETY AND EVERYTHING. QUICK ADMINISTRATIVE NOTE. WE'RE, WE'RE OVER TIME. CAN WE FINISH THIS ITEM? DO WE LIKE WHAT'S OUR, WHAT'S OUR, I MEAN WE, WE ARE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE AS LONG AS WE WANT WHEN IT COMES TO OFFICIAL, I MEAN, WE JUST NEED TO DOCUMENT WHEN THE MEETING'S GONNA START FOR THE PUBLIC. AND Y'ALL, AS LONG AS YOU'RE WILLING AND STAFF I THINK IS UP FOR FINISHING UP SO WE DON'T HAVE TO HAVE ANOTHER MEETING, RIGHT? YEAH, BUT IT'S UP TO THE, UH, SUBCOMMITTEE TO DECIDE ON THAT. I MEAN, SO JUST REAL QUICK. DOES EVERYBODY, DOES ANYBODY NEED TO GO? OKAY. UM, AND, AND I I THINK WE PROBABLY CAN ONLY LOSE ONE MORE PERSON BEFORE WE LOSE CORRUM, I WOULD GUESS THAT IS, UM, THAT IS CORRECT. YEAH. WE HAVE SIX SO YOU CAN VOTE, I CAN VOTE TO UH, DROP ONE OF THE OTHER SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS. SO WE CAN TECHNICALLY DROP WILLIAM BURRIS, UM, YOU KNOW, AND THEN GET DOWN TO WHERE WE ONLY NEED THREE. SO I'LL LEAVE IT. SO ONCE AGAIN, WE HAVE THE OPTIONS FOR THE SUBCOMMITTEE AS FOR AS LONG AS Y'ALL WANNA GO. WHAT ABOUT CITY STAFF? ANYBODY HAVE CONFLICTING MEETINGS OR JUST SICK OF OUR FACES AND WANT TO GET OUTTA HERE? NEVER APPRECIATE THAT ANSWER ALL. OKAY, SO, SO UM, FOR THIS ITEM 22, I THINK WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IT TO DEATH. I THINK THERE'S TWO COMPETING, YOU KNOW, THINGS WE'RE SAYING, YOU KNOW, DO THIS FOR EVERYTHING OR DO WE EXEMPT OUT A ONES AND BASICALLY CREATE AN EXCEPTION THAT USES THE 2021 LANGUAGE, UH, FOR A ONE TO A ONE CONVERSION? IS THAT, THAT'S WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW. IS THERE SOMEBODY WANTS TO MAKE A MOTION TO THAT EFFECT. SEVEN VOTE COREY PALMER. SO THERE'S A MOTION TO ADD AN EXCEPTION TO 1101 0.7 IN AMENDMENT THAT, UM, EXEMPTS A ONE TO A ONE CONVERSIONS AND REPEATS THE LANGUAGE FROM 2021. YES. SECOND. THANKS SCOTT. ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THAT? UH, REAL QUICK CITY STAFF. UM, SO I WANNA MAKE SURE WE'RE, WE ARE DOCUMENTING THIS CORRECTLY. SO THE EXCEPTION WOULD BE WHEN CONVERTING A ONE TO A ONE UP TO A MAXIMUM OF 220 POUNDS YOU'RE EXEMPT FROM THIS WHOLE SECTION. IT DOESN'T REALLY NEED TO KICK US BACK TO THE 2020 ONES BECAUSE THE 2021 WAS, THAT WHOLE SECTION WAS EXEMPT IF YOU DIDN'T EXCEED THE 2021, RIGHT? YEAH. SO BASICALLY JUST USING THE LANGUAGE FROM 2021 AS THE EXCEPTION IS, IS WHAT I WAS KIND OF GETTING AT. WELL, IT'S NOT THE WHOLE, IT'S IT'S WHAT JEREMY SAID. IT'S JUST 200 REPLACEMENT OF UP TO 220 GALLONS OF A ONE. NO, I THINK WE HAVE THE, WE CAN, WE CAN WE'LL CODIFY ALL THAT. WE HAVE THE INTENT. I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THE INTENT WAS DOCUMENTED. WELL, OKAY, THANK YOU. YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. ALRIGHT, SO ALL IN FAVOR SAY A, A YES. AYE, YES. ? YES. ALRIGHT. ANY OPPOSED? ALRIGHT, UH, MIKE, THE OTHER ISSUE THAT I HAVE IS NUMBER FOUR IN THAT, UH, REAL QUICK, UH, JUST FOR THE RECORD, WHO WAS THE SECOND ON THAT ONE? SCOTT. SCOTT. THANK YOU SCOTT. SO MARK, I KNOW THIS WAS THE OTHER ITEM THAT WE TALKED ABOUT WAS THE, THE NUMBER FOUR, UM, CHRISTO, DO WE WANNA LOOK AT, I KNOW WE TALKED ABOUT THIS EXTENSIVELY AFTER THE MEETING, UH, INTERNALLY TO SEE WHERE THIS LIES. DO WE NEED TO GO TO THE OTHER TABLED ITEM? MAYBE ADDRESS THAT BECAUSE THEN THAT MIGHT RECTIFY NUMBER FOUR, BUT THEN WE CAN COME BACK AND CIRCLE AROUND. WOULD IT, WOULD IT RECTIFY THAT? YEAH, I MEAN, JEREMY, THE, THE BIG PROBLEM THAT I HAVE IS THAT WHEN YOU HAVE THESE FREON LINES THAT RUN IN PLACES THAT YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THEY RAN AND ALL WE'RE DOING IS PUTTING, YOU KNOW, THE CONDENSING UNIT IN THE, YOU KNOW, THE AIR HANDLER IN THE COIL ATTACHING TO EXISTING FREE ONLINE. AND WE'RE NOT RUNNING NEW FREE ONLINE OR ANYTHING TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT. AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THE OTHER AREA IS OKAY, HOW MANY OF THOSE LINES HAVE TO BE TOGETHER BEFORE IT TRIGGERS THAT? AND WE HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING HOW THEY RAN, WHERE THEY RAN, YOU KNOW, HOW THEY GET FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER. AND SO WHAT I JUST SUGGESTED IS, IF YOU'RE NOT REPLACING THE FREON LINES, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THE, THE, YOU KNOW, FIREPROOFING OF THAT AREA. [02:05:01] 'CAUSE WE HAVE NO, I NO CLUE WHERE THAT GOES. AND SO, YEAH, I DON'T THINK YOU'RE SUGGESTING THAT WE GO TEAR UP EVERYBODY'S APARTMENT TO CHASE DOWN WHERE THE FREON GOES. AND IF IT GOES THROUGH FIVE APARTMENTS TO GET TO THE ROOF, YOU KNOW, THAT WE HAVE TO COME IN AND PUT, YOU KNOW, WITHIN THE FIRE BOX. 'CAUSE I DON'T HAVE ANY CLUE HOW MANY RUN WITHIN THAT AREA. WELL, I, I HATE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THIS, BUT, UM, SO ALL THESE OTHER REQUIREMENTS, BECAUSE THE A TWO L, BECAUSE WE'RE INTRODUCING A FLAMMABLE GAS INTO EVERYBODY'S BUSINESS AND HOME, YOU KNOW, THEY CAME UP WITH ALL THE OTHER RESTRICTIONS FOR OBVIOUS SAFETY REASONS. AND I DON'T, I AM NOT SURE THAT WE COULD BE COMFORTABLE AS A CITY JUST BECAUSE IT'S A REPLACEMENT. 'CAUSE THESE REPLACEMENTS ARE GONNA HAVE TO HAPPEN OVER TIME SINCE THEY'RE OUTLAWING EVERYTHING ELSE. I I DON'T KNOW HOW WE CAN EXEMPT NUMBER FOUR OUT. UM, I MEAN OBVIOUSLY THERE'S GONNA BE SOME ENFORCEMENT. YEAH. UM, THERE'S GONNA HAVE TO BE SOME ENFORCEMENT FLEXIBILITY IN TERMS OF, WELL, I DON'T KNOW. SO WE'RE, WE'RE GONNA, YOU KNOW, NOT NOT REQUIRED TO, TO RUN IT UP THE OUTSIDE OF THE BUILDING. BUT I I, I JUST DON'T SEE HOW WE CAN, I DON'T SEE HOW WE CAN MAKE AN EXCEPTION TO SAY THAT IF YOU ARE LIKE, WE HAVE ALL THESE REQUIREMENTS BECAUSE IT'S A FLAMMABLE LIQUID. UH, BUT IF YOU'RE JUST ADDING THE FLAMMABLE LIQUID TO AN ALREADY EXISTING SYSTEM, THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT. I JUST, I, I'M NOT COMFORTABLE DOING THAT. THAT'S NOT WHAT I CAN I, CAN I JUMP IN HERE REAL QUICK? UM, JEREMY'S RIGHT, WE DID DISCUSS IT, DISCUSS THIS IN LENGTH, UM, INTERNALLY. AND I THINK ONCE WE TALK MORE ABOUT THE OTHER TABLE TO ITEMS, UM, IF WE CAN KEEP THIS ITEM IN MIND, UH, IT MAY, IT MAY BE A NON-ISSUE. TRUST ME, MARK. 'CAUSE I UNDERSTAND YOUR CONCERN OF THE EXISTING BUILDING, BUT WE'RE ALSO LOOKING AT IT ON THE NEW BUILDS AS WELL. LIKE IS THIS, LIKE, IS THERE AN EXCEPTION THAT MAKES SENSE? THAT KIND OF CAPTURES BOTH AND THEN THAT WAY WE JUST HAVE ONE AMENDMENT INSTEAD OF TWO. SO LET'S GET TO ITEM 28, 11 0 9 0.25. SO THIS IS WHERE WE WERE, WERE PROPOSING AN AMENDMENT TO STRIKE OUT THE EXCEPTION FOR JUST GROUP A ONES. UM, AND THIS IS WHERE WE WERE DISCUSSING INTERNALLY THAT THE, THE, THE QUANTITY OF REFRIGERANT IS A LOT MORE THAN WE WERE ORIGINALLY ANTICIPATING. CAN YOU EXPLAIN, JEREMY, YOU WANNA STEP IN ON THAT FOR THE, UM, EXCEPTION TO WHERE THE REFRIGERANT, UM, YEAH. SO PIPING IN DIRECT REFRIGERATION SYSTEMS USING GROUP ONE REFRIGERANT. SO WE WOULD AMEND OUR GROUP ONE REFRIGERANT. UM, SO IT, WHERE THE REFRIGERANT QUANTITY DOES NOT EXCEED THE LIMITS OF TABLE 1103 0.1 FOR THE SMALLEST OCCUPIED SPACE. UM, SO THE TABLE, WHEN EVERYBODY READS THAT, IT TALKS ABOUT POUNDS. SO YOU'RE TRYING TO SEE THAT TABLE AND YOU SAY, OKAY, I HAVE THIS REFRIGERANT R 35 AND I'M ALLOWED 3.8 POUNDS. IT'S NOT 3.8 POUNDS. THAT'S, IT IS A MULTIPLIER. SO IT'S 3.8 POUNDS PER THOUSAND CUBIC FEET OF OCCUPIABLE SPACE. UH, ONCE AGAIN, THE OCCUPIABLE SPACE IS DEFINED AS KIND OF WHERE YOU WOULD NORMALLY BE AT. SO CLOSETS STORAGE IS, ONCE AGAIN, WE'RE IN THE COMMERCIAL INDUSTRY, NOT, UH, SO THAT WOULD AFFECT, YOU KNOW, RESIDENTIAL OF, YOU KNOW, MULTIFAMILY R TWO R ONES. UH, BUT THE OCCUPIED SPACE IS THE LARGER AREAS, NOT THE PLACES SUCH AS, I DON'T THINK WE EVEN SAID WE WOULD NOT LOOK AT A BATHROOM AS THE OCCUPIABLE SPACE. SO THE SMALLEST OCCUPIABLE SPACE IS REALLY KINDA THE LIVING AREAS. UM, SOME POSSIBLY THE BEDROOM BEING MAYBE THE SMALLEST WHEN IT COMES TO THAT. BUT YOU TAKE THAT VOLUME AND THEN YOU MULTIPLY IT BY THAT MULTIPLIER. UM, SO SAY YOU HAD A, UM, WHAT IS A TYPICAL A APART, UM, BEDROOM IN AN APARTMENT COMPLEX? LET, LET'S SAY IT'S 800 SQUARE FEET OF VARIABLE SPACE IN A 1200 SQUARE FOOT APARTMENT. OKAY. UM, AND, AND WHAT IF THE CEILING HEIGHTS SPACE LIKE 10 BY 12? PROBABLY. OKAY, SO 10 BY 12, SO THAT'D BE 120. AND THEN WHAT HEIGHT? OKAY, SO THEN YOU'RE ROUGHLY OF ABOUT A THOUSAND. SO THE MULTIPLIER WOULD ONLY BE ABOUT ONE ON THOSE. UM, BUT YOU KNOW, BUT THAT'S ALSO I THINK WHERE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE DEFINE. WHAT DID WE DECIDE ON HOW WE WOULD APPROACH THAT DEFINITION OF OCCUPIABLE SPACE? WE WOULD, WE WOULD TAKE THE, UM, LIKE THE EXAMPLE MARK GAVE OF A 1200 SQUARE FOOT APARTMENT. THAT 800 SQUARE FEET OF THAT IS THE OCCUPIED SPACE, LIKE THE SMALLEST SQUARE FOOTAGE. IT WOULDN'T THE BEDROOM, IT WOULD ACTUALLY BE ALL THE OCCUPIABLE SPACE OF THAT BECAUSE IT IS ALL INTER, 'CAUSE THE WHOLE POINT IS IF THIS WERE TO LEAK INTO THAT OCCUPIABLE SPACE, WOULD IT EVER GET TO A CONCENTRATION THAT BECOMES THE FLAM, LOWER FLAMMABLE LIMIT? AND THE MORE AREA THAT YOU HAVE THAT AREA INTERCHANGING, ALL THAT'S CONNECTED BY DUCT WORK, YOU'RE CONSTANTLY, AND WE KNOW THERE'S O ENOUGH OPENINGS IN AN APARTMENT COMPLEX BECAUSE YOU ONLY HAVE ONE RETURN GRILL. SO LIKE ALL THE DOORS AND EVERYTHING ARE OPENED UP ENOUGH TO WHERE YOU'RE GETTING THAT FRESH AIR OR YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GETTING THE AIR SUCKED BACK IN THERE. SO YOU'RE MIXING THAT AIR. SO THE OVERALL VOLUME THAT YOU'RE ALLOWED INSIDE THAT SPACE IS THAT OCCUPIABLE AREA. UH, SO YOU, YOU DO THAT MULTIPLIER. SO YEAH, SO IF YOU SAY 800 SQUARE FEET, 800 SQUARE FEET AT EIGHT FOOT CEILINGS OR NINE FOOT CEILINGS, [02:10:01] THAT'S 7,000. SO YOU MULTIPLY YOUR SEVEN. SO IF YOUR REFRIGERANT SAYS FIVE POUNDS PER THOUSAND CUBIC FEET, IT'S SEVEN TIMES 35. SO IT'S 35 POUNDS. SO I THINK WE'RE, BEFORE WE EVEN HAD THE CONCERN OF NEEDING THE SHAFT, YOU GOTTA HAVE A LOT OF REFRIGERANT. UH, SO WE DON'T THINK WE'RE GONNA SEE THAT EVEN ON THE, ON THE CHANGE OUTS. BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CLUE THAT THAT MAY HAVE 25 LINES RUNNING THROUGH THAT OCCUPIABLE SPACE BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY RAN? 'EM. I, I MEAN BASICALLY IN, IN A JOIST, THEY JUST RAN 'EM. HOWEVER THEY RAN 'EM, THERE'S REALLY NOT A, IN THE OLDER CONSTRUCTION, A CHASE GOING UP TO THE ROOF, IT'S JUST THEY FOLLOWED A WALL WENT UP, WENT BETWEEN WALL. SO YOU COULD HAVE 10 LINES GOING STRAIGHT UP. THAT'S TRUE. IT WOULD BE PER SYSTEM. I MEAN WE DON'T THAT, THAT WOULD BE A VERY EXTREME SCENARIO WHERE LIKE, OKAY, ALL 10 OF THESE SYSTEMS ARE LEAKING RIGHT HERE IN THIS ONE SPOT. SO WE'RE REALLY LOOKING AT PER SYSTEM. WHERE DOES THE, SO WE, WE NEED TO GO BACK TO, UH, THE, SO IS THIS CRYSTAL WHAT OUR PROPOSED AMENDMENT FOR THIS IS RIGHT NOW? THIS IS, IT JUST STRIKES OUT THAT GROUP A ONE. SO PIPING IN A DIRECT REFRIGERATION SYSTEM, SO A SYSTEM, NOT ALL SYSTEMS CAN WE, SO CAN WE ADD THE WORDS IN PER SYSTEM? I, I MEAN BECAUSE WE'RE SO PIPING IN A SINGLE DIRECT SYSTEM YEAH. WE CAN ADD SINGLE TO THAT. 'CAUSE THAT'S THE INTENT. MM-HMM. . BECAUSE I THINK IF, IF WE HAD A SCENARIO WHERE 10 PIPES GOT DAMAGED AND NEXT TO SOMEBODY'S WENT, YOU KNOW, UNIT AND YOU'RE LEAKING THAT, I MEAN LIKE THAT'S NOTICEABLE. I THINK WHAT OUR CONCERN IS IS A PINHOLE SOMEWHERE WITHIN A WALL, MAYBE A NAIL CAUGHT A PIPE SOME WAY YOU GOT ONE SYSTEM LEAKING AND WE WANNA MAKE SURE WE DON'T GET THE LOWER FLAMMABILITY LIMIT. UM, AND YEAH, WITH THAT I, I'M OKAY BECAUSE AT THAT POINT THERE'S, YOU KNOW, IN A TYPICAL RESIDENTIAL UNIT, YOU DON'T HAVE, YOU KNOW, 35 POUNDS OF FREON IN THE SYSTEM. OKAY. SO DOES THIS ALSO CON SOLVE YOUR CONCERN ON NUMBER FOUR OF THE PREVIOUS ITEM? I BELIEVE SO. OKAY. YEAH, AND THAT WAS, AND THAT WAS OUR INTENT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE LOOKED AT IT AS IF IT'S SAFE FOR NEW CONSTRUCTION, THEN IT'S DEFINITELY SAFE FOR EXISTING FOR THE A TWO LS, WHICH IS WHAT WE'RE GONNA SEE THE MOST OF. RIGHT. BECAUSE IN A NEW CONSTRUCTION, IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE JUST GONNA BUILD A SHAFT, THEY'RE GONNA PUT SHEET ROCK AROUND IT AND IT'S EASY IN, IN EXISTING CONSTRUCTION, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THOSE PIPES RUN AT ALL. I MEAN, THERE'S NO TELLING. CORRECT. YEAH. AND THE GOOD THING WITH THIS APPROACH IS, IS NOT LIMITED TO EVEN THE A TWO L. SO IF SOMETHING WERE TO COME UP THAT'S MAYBE MORE FLAMMABLE, THE TABLE DICTATES HOW MUCH THAT QUANTITY CAN BE. SO YOU CAN USE THE MORE HAZARDOUS. NOW THERE'S OTHER GUIDELINES OF WHEN YOU CAN'T BECAUSE OF, OF, UH, THE, THE, THE SECTIONS OF THE CODE. BUT IF SOMETHING WERE TO COME IN THAT MIGHT BE MORE FLAMMABLE ASHRAY AND THE TABLES ASSOCIATED, THAT WILL SAY, OKAY, WELL YEAH, YOU CAN'T DO A FIVE MULTIPLIER, IT'S A THREE MULTIPLIER. SO YOU STILL MIGHT BE ABLE TO USE IT ON, ON A BIGGER SPACE AND THE RUN ISN'T TOO FAR, BUT IT GIVES YOU SOME OPTIONS. BUT THE GOOD THING IS, IS IT REFERENCES BACK TO A A TABLE AND WE'RE NOT DOING LIKE A SET POUNDAGE AND MORE LIKE, HEY, WHAT IS THE CONCERNS WITH THAT ONE SPECIFIC REFRIGERANT? GO BACK, LOOK AT YOUR AREA AND THEN USE THAT MULTIPLIER TO DECIDE HOW MUCH OF A CHARGE CAN YOU DO. AND THEN WHAT WE HAVE WHEN THEY, YOU KNOW, THE SYSTEM, UH, THAT MR. BYERS WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT HAS THE INDIVIDUAL DEAL AND A LOT OF FREON PIPES RUNNING INTO, CORRECT, YEAH. THAT DON'T HAVE TO MEET THE, THE NEW STANDARD YET. WELL, WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO COME BACK AND ONCE THEY FIGURE OUT WHAT THAT IS AND HOW MUCH POUNDAGE IT IS, WHETHER ALL THOSE LINES ARE GONNA HAVE TO RUN IN A, UH, IN CHASES. I MEAN, ONCE AGAIN, HIS, HE WAS BRINGING UP CONCERNS WITH HORIZONTAL RUNS, WHICH THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT FOR A HORIZONTAL CHASE. OKAY. SO IT, IT WOULD ONLY BE IN A BUILDING LIKE A HIGH RIGHT. OR WELL, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, MULTIPLE FLOORS, UM, YOU KNOW, IN A BUILDING THAT SIZE IN A COMMERCIAL INDUSTRY, TYPICALLY YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A CHASE MM-HMM. , THEY WOULD JUST HAVE TO RUN IT OVER TO THAT CHASE TO GET THERE. AND THEN THESE, THESE BUILDINGS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ARE, WOULD A TWO STORY BUILDING HAVE THAT REQUIREMENT OR IS IT THREE STORIES? THREE STORIES OR MORE? [02:15:01] THREE MORE, YEAH, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO PIN AND THAT UNIT WOULD HAVE TO PENETRATE MORE THAN TWO. SO THE BUILDING COULD BE SIX. OKAY. AS LONG AS THEY JUST HAVE UNITS ON, YOU KNOW, SERVING TWO FLOORS AT A TIME. OKAY. THANKS. ALL RIGHT. SO WE'RE GOOD THEN ON 28, WE JUST ADDED THE WORD SINGLE INTO THE ORIGINAL AMENDMENT AND WE'LL MOVE ON TO ITEM NUMBER 29. OKAY. 29. WE DIDN'T TALK MUCH ABOUT THIS ONE. I THINK WE WERE KIND OF AT THE END OF OUR TIME. UM, SO WE JUST DECIDED TO TABLE IT AS A, UH, CHAPTER 11 CHANGE. SO THIS IS 11 0 9 3 AND 3.2 INSTALLATION REQUIREMENTS FOR, UM, ALL OF THOSE LISTED GROUP REFRIGERANTS. SO REALLY THESE SECTION, UM, IN THE 2021, THEY WERE TWO SEPARATE SECTIONS AND THEY JUST COMBINE 'EM TO ONE. SO THERE WERE NOT SIGNIFICANT CHANGES. THE CONTINUOUS VENTILATION WAS ALREADY REQUIRED FOR THE REFRIGERANTS LISTED. SO I, I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT THE ADDITIONAL CONCERN WAS, UH, EXCEPT THE FACT THAT WE WERE JUST, WE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO REALLY, UH, WERE DIGEST THIS. THINK WE WERE, TIME WAS EXHAUSTED AND I THINK OUR WE'RE DONE TALKING ABOUT STUFF TOO. YEAH. WE DIDN'T REALLY TALK ABOUT THIS. GOOD POINT IS SHIELD PLATE'S A THING THAT GOES ACROSS THE STATE WHERE THE FREON LINE'S NOT IN THE RIGHT PLACE OR IF IT'S BEEN, UM, UH, BORED OR NOTCHED? SO IF I AM CHA , I, I'LL GO BACK TO THIS. IF I'M CHANGING REFRIGERANT TO AN A TWO L, DO I THEN HAVE TO INSTALL A REFRIGERANT DETECTOR? OR IS THIS ONLY FOR NEW CONSTRUCTIONS WHERE WE'RE CREATING THE SHAFT? I'M LOOKING AT 11 0 9 3 2 YOU INSTALL, WELL YOU PROBLEMS YOU CAN ONLY INSTALL IN THE SHAFT. SO THIS SAYS SHAFT VENTILATION. SO WHERE THE SHAFT CONTAINS THOSE REFRIGERANTS, THE CONTINUOUS, UH, VENTILATION IS REQUIRED IN THE SHAFT. SO IF WE DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S A SHAFT OR NOT A SHAFT, WE WOULD NOT, YEAH, THE INSPECTOR WOULD SAY YOU HAVE TO VENTILATE YOUR SHAFT AND YOU'D SAY, SHOW ME WHERE MY SHAFT IS NOT VENTILATED. THAT THAT'S ONLY APPLIES IF A SHAFT IS REQUIRED. CORRECT. I MEAN THERE, THERE'S A CERTAIN POINT WHERE THIS IS GONNA BE LIKE ANYTHING TO DO WITH A TWO L IS GONNA BE EXCEPTIONALLY EXPENSIVE. AND THE, I MEAN, AT A CERTAIN POINT, THE MORE PAIN PEOPLE FEEL, THE MORE LOUD THEY'LL GET. AND MAYBE WE CAN AGAIN, YOU KNOW, AFFECT CHANGE NATIONALLY BECAUSE THIS IS ALL IS FROM A NATIONAL DICTATE THAT NO ONE REALLY KNOWS ABOUT AND ALL THE DOWNSTREAM EFFECTS ARE ROLLING DOWN TO US AND THERE'S LIMITS TO WHAT WE CAN DO AND NOT DO. I MEAN, YEAH, THI THIS A TWO L THING SUCKS AND IT'S GONNA BE REALLY EXPENSIVE FOR EVERY SINGLE PERSON LIVING IN THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO AND EVERY OTHER PLACE IN AMERICA. AND WE CAN'T, WE CAN'T STOP THAT TO, TO, YOU KNOW, TO AN EXTENT. I, I DON'T KNOW. IS THERE A REQUIREMENT THAT THE A TWO L PIPES RUN IN A SHAFT? YES, THAT WAS THE SECTION WE JUST, UM, DISCUSSED FOR REFRIGERANT PIPE SHAFTS, IF IT EXCEEDS THE QUANTITIES. THE EXCEPTION IS IF YOU DON'T EXCEED THE QUANTITIES, UM, PER THE TABLE, THEN THAT CHEF'S NOT REQUIRED. OKAY. YEAH. AND ALSO TWO FLOORS MINIMUM. TWO FLOORS. THANK YOU. YES. ANYBODY ELSE? ON 29? WE CAN GO TO 30. SO, SO BASICALLY ON AN EXISTING INSTALLATION WHERE YOU'RE DOING A REPLACEMENT, WE'RE JUST GOING TO ASSUME THAT THERE'S NO SHAFT AND THERE'S NOT ENOUGH PIPE TO TRIGGER THIS REQUIREMENT. CORRECT. YEAH. GOING BACK TO THAT, THAT REFRIGERANT CHANGE, I MEAN, ONCE AGAIN, WE'RE NOT ALL THAT INVOLVED WITH THAT NOW. WE DON'T PLAN ON BEING MORE INVOLVED NOW IT'S JUST SOME MORE GUIDELINES FOR THE INSTALLING COMPANY AND THE HOMEOWNERS. SOME SAFEGUARDS FOR THEM, BUT IT'S, YOU KNOW, JUST KIND OF GUIDELINES THAT YOU NEED TO KIND OF FOLLOW THIS. IF, YOU KNOW, THE COMPANY GETS THERE AND THEY LOOK AT THE, THAT TABLE AND THEY SAY, HEY, I'M PUTTING 40 POUNDS IN HERE, I'M EXCEEDING THIS. I REALLY SHOULDN'T DO THAT. I SHOULD, YOU KNOW, LIKE, I'M NOW DOING SOMETHING WRONG. I NEED TO PULL A PERMIT, I NEED TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY. BUT WE'RE NOT GETTING INVOLVED IF THEY'RE NOT TRIGGERING ONE OF THOSE FOUR. SO AS LONG AS THEY'RE INSTALLING IT PROPERLY, THEN WE'RE GOOD TO GO WITH THAT EXCEPTION WITH NO REQUIREMENT FOR A SHAFT AND WE DON'T NEED TO BE INVOLVED AS DST. CAN I GO ON A FOUR OR FIVE STORY BUILDING CHIEF? NORMALLY HOW MUCH FREON GOES INTO A SYSTEM? IS IT 10, 15, 20 POUND? I MEAN, WHERE WOULD IT EXCEED, YOU KNOW, 30 OR 40 OR 50 POUNDS IN A NORMAL INSTALLATION? IT JUST DEPENDS ON THE SIZE OF THE EQUIPMENT AND THE TYPE OF COPPER THAT THEY'RE IN. SO IN A, IN A RESIDENTIAL DEAL, WOULD IT EVER BE HIT THAT [02:20:01] LEVEL? I'M NOT SURE. SO FOR NEW CON FOR NEW APARTMENTS RIGHT NOW, WE ARE ALLOWING THEM TO SUBMIT A CODE MODIFICATION REQUEST FOLLOWING THE ASHRAY, UM, AND COMPLYING WITH THE AMENDMENT THAT WE JUST WENT THROUGH. SO THEY ARE NOT CURRENTLY INSTALLING SHAFTS BECAUSE THAT THE AMOUNT OF REFRIGERANT DOES NOT EXCEED THOSE TABLES BASED ON THE DISCUSSION THAT WE JUST HAD THE SMALLEST OCCUPIED AREA BEING ABOUT 800 SQUARE FEET. SO CURRENTLY NEW CONSTRUCTION, WE'RE ALLOWING THEM TO SAY, HEY, WE'RE GONNA FOLLOW THE ASH RAY INSTEAD OF THE UM, WELL, BECAUSE THE, INSTEAD OF THE 2021, WHICH CURRENTLY DOES REQUIRE THE, UM, THE SHAFT AND THE VENTILATION, UH, BUT IF, IF THEY MEET THIS EXCEPTION, THEN FOR, FOR ALL REFRIGERANTS, RIGHT? SO THE ASH RAY AND OUR AMENDMENT SAY FOR, FOR ANY REFRIGERANT YOU CAN MEET THIS EXCEPTION. IF YOU DON'T EXCEED THE TABLE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A SHAFT. SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW FOR NEW CONSTRUCTION. OKAY. NEW CONSTRUCTION IS NOT INSTALLING A SHAFT. YOU WOULDN'T NEED TO HAVE VENTILATION. CORRECT. YOU WOULDN'T NEED TO HAVE AN ALARM IN THIS SHAFT, CORRECT? WOULDN'T HAVE. OKAY, THANK YOU. NO SHAFT IT EQUALS NO VENTILATION OR ALARM. GREAT. SO LET'S MOVE ON TO ITEM 30, WHICH WASN'T TABLED, WE JUST DIDN'T GET TO IT. CORRECT. SO THESE NEW SECTIONS FOR FACTORY TEST, PROCEDURE, PIPING SYSTEM STRENGTH TEST. SO WE ARE STILL IN A REFRIGERATION, REFRIGERATION PIPING SYSTEM TEST STATES THAT THOSE FACTORY TESTS SHALL BE PERFORMED WITH DRY NITROGEN OR OTHER NON-FLAMMABLE, NON-REACTIVE DRIED GAS. SO, UM, THE SUMMARY SAYS THAT THOSE PROPOSED TEST GAS REQUIREMENTS ADD AN ALLOWANCE FOR THE USE OF PRE-MIXED NITROGEN WITH A TRACER GAS OF EITHER HYDROGEN OR HELIUM. THE TRACER GAS MAKES IT EASIER TO DETECT A LEAK IN LARGER REFRIGERATION SYSTEMS AND THE USE OF TRACER GASES FOR TESTING PIPING SYSTEMS AS COMMON PRACTICE IN LARGER REFRIGERATION SYSTEMS. SO THE FACTORY TEST PROCEDURES ARE DIFFERENT THAN THE FIELD TEST PROCEDURES. THE FIELD TEST PROCEDURES, YOUR TEAM WOULD SEE THE FACTORY TEST. YOU WOULDN'T. SO THIS IS ALL JUST ABOUT WHAT, LIKE IF SOMEBODY SAYS IT WAS FACTORY TESTED, THE PIECE OF PAPER THEY GIVE YOU TO SHOW IT HAS TO MEET THESE REQUIREMENTS AND UNLIKELY TO FIND A FACTORY THAT DOESN'T MEET THESE REQUIREMENTS. EXACTLY, YES. YEP. THAT, THAT'S MY INTERPRETATION. OKAY. SO ANY CONCERN FROM THE COMMITTEE ON THIS? OKAY, SO 30 SOUNDS GOOD. SO OF THE TABLED ITEMS THAT WE RETURNED TO, WE RETURNED TO THIRTEEN, TWENTY TWO, TWENTY EIGHT, TWENTY NINE, AND I'LL CALL IT 30 EVEN THOUGH IT WASN'T REALLY TABLED FOR 13, WHAT DID WE DECIDE THAT, UH, 13 WE DECIDED TO SPRAY PALMER. 13 WE DECIDED TO ADOPT IS WRITTEN. OKAY. UH, MARCH CONCERNS WERE ASSUAGED WITH THE FOLLOWING ITEM. GOT IT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU COREY. UM, SO 13 WE'RE GONNA AMEND AS WRITTEN. SO 22, WE WERE GONNA, UM, ADD AN EXCEPTION, AN AMENDMENT WITH AN EXCEPTION FOR A ONE TO A ONE SYSTEMS, UM, MIRRORING THE WORDING OF THE 2021 LANGUAGE THAT HAS THE POUNDAGES OF THE SYSTEM, CORRECT? YEAH. AND YOU ALREADY TECHNICALLY MADE A MOTION ON THAT, SO JUST YOU'RE COVERING THAT MOTION. OKAY. AND THEN 28 WE'RE GONNA ADOPT AS, UH, RECOMMENDED WITH THE ADDITION OF THE WORD SINGLE. UM, SO IT'S THE SINGLE SYSTEM FOR THAT AMENDMENT 29. WE'RE ADOPTING AS WRITTEN 30 WE'RE ADOPTING AS WRITTEN. SOUND FAMILIAR TO EVERYBODY? OKAY. I'D ACCEPT A MOTION TO, TO DO ALL THAT. CORY PALMER. SO MOVED. THANK YOU. CORY. CAN I GET A SECOND? A SECOND. THANKS SCOTT. ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THESE? ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE. YES. AYE. YES. AYE. ANY OPPOSED? SAY NO. ANY ABSTENTIONS. ALL RIGHT. SO THAT'S, SO THAT'S THAT AGENDA ITEM OF THREE IS ITEM NUMBER THREE IS DONE. UM, IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE FROM THE CITY THAT WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT? ANY OTHER BUSINESS FROM THE COMMITTEE? ALL, NOTHING. HERE IT IS, UH, 1140 MEETING'S ADJOURNED. THANK YOU. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.